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On 2/25/2020 at 7:49 AM, Shinigami said:

That fish wrapper magazine has cranked out fake renders of “the next Honda V4” (and at least once, V5!) every couple years since at least 2006.  Zero credibility.

 

Here’s a notoriously bad example from 2008, in which the now-dead MCN glommed onto a story that originated in Young Bike (without attribution and claiming an “inside source at Honda “)

 

You can read this wretched pile of journalistic excrement here.

https://issuu.com/motorcyclenews/docs/mcnsampler060808

 

 

71A036B6-8F40-40FB-937A-571F9A4D57D6.jpeg

The "fishwrapper" is still going...you're confusing it with Motorcycle Consumer News.

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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Oh, you're absolutely right, my mistake.  By the way, the "fish wrapper" I was referring to is "Young Bike", the Japanese magazine.

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Guess you could jump ship and go for the 2020 Ducati Superleggera V4. 234hp 998cc with full carbon fibre swingarm all up weight of 152kg's ! All yours for only a cool $100,000 US.!!

 

 

image.jpeg

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I need the 45 mpg and 225-250 mile range of my 2014 vfr800 for cross country rides.  A superbike v4 wouldn't work for me one bit.

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6 hours ago, Sparkie said:

I need the 45 mpg and 225-250 mile range of my 2014 vfr800 for cross country rides.

 

 

You may strike a SP1/2 of your list as well then...

 

IMG_20190305_161712.thumb.jpg.3f835aa93371501908c60e80517ca7ef.jpg

Sorry @Skids

🙂

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On 2/23/2020 at 11:34 AM, BusyLittleShop said:

Negative the problem was not cams but cam bearing blocks...

 

Honda's great cam shaft crisis was the result of a factory cost
cutting measure... they choose to mill the cam bearing blocks
separately... there was no matching of components... consequently the
cam bearing blocks were not line bored with the head... if the
tolerances happened  to add up... the cam will flop about in the
head..   you'll notice the edge of the cams fail first... a sure sign
the cam shaft tilted and was allowed to strike the follower at an
angle... this also explains why some cams go 100K while other only
20K...

 

Honda spent a lot of money replacing hand  cam shafts and matching cam
bearing blocks to erase the blemish on the V4 legacy...


Honda took a lot of stick over this problem and immediately went back
to the expense of line boring the cam bearing blocks in the head...

 

To tell the difference between line bored head and the one that gots
the short cut... take a look at the valve cover gasket... if your gasket
sports little half circles molded into the rubber... then you have the
expensive line bored head... no little half circles... then you have the
short cut heads...

 

gallery_3131_51_75006.jpg

ValveCovers3.JPG

ValveCovers4.JPG


 

 

BLS!!   You are still around man that’s great.   I stopped by the Busy Little Shop some years ago when I was living in Ranch Cordova and picked up a set of your peg lowering blocks.   Still have my CGR ‘07, recently replaced tires, fresh fluids, addressed some minor electrical issues and she is running great.   Never owned a bike for over 10 years and reality says hold what I got.   Blessed to have two other bikes to ride as it is so while I have flights of fancy looking at new bikes I just can’t see getting rid of anything.  BTW those peg lowering blocks still look new and have made a huge difference in my comfort.    Thanks for your great craftsmanship.   03A49EEA-194E-490C-BF49-EF7E6E74A223.thumb.jpeg.4ca9690860e8dea69f17e55928be73cb.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Dutchy said:

 

 

You may strike a SP1/2 of your list as well then...

 

IMG_20190305_161712.thumb.jpg.3f835aa93371501908c60e80517ca7ef.jpg

Sorry @Skids

🙂

Don't worry, sub-100 mile range wouldn't stop me getting one.

 

It's the cost that is! 

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11 hours ago, LEGEND said:


 

 

BLS!!   You are still around man that’s great.   I stopped by the Busy Little Shop some years ago when I was living in Ranch Cordova and picked up a set of your peg lowering blocks.   Still have my CGR ‘07, recently replaced tires, fresh fluids, addressed some minor electrical issues and she is running great.   Never owned a bike for over 10 years and reality says hold what I got.   Blessed to have two other bikes to ride as it is so while I have flights of fancy looking at new bikes I just can’t see getting rid of anything.  BTW those peg lowering blocks still look new and have made a huge difference in my comfort.    Thanks for your great craftsmanship.  

You're welcome Robert... happy to see you're keeping your knees in the breeze... come back and visit anytime...

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On 2/24/2020 at 12:00 AM, Dutchy said:

There have been various theories on the early VF cam issues, even guys selling kits to add oil lines and reroute some of the flow.  

I own and run an 86 (with the "half moons" yes) and have no issues.

 

Honda was typically silent for a long time and this led to all sorts of home
cures including better top oiling kits... shorten oil change intervals... larger
gapped valve clearances... installing new cam tensioners... auxiliary
cooling fans kits... etc etc etc... but none of these address the root cause...
Only after Honda took a lot of stick did they finally go back to the timely
process of line boring the cam bearing blocks on the head so the
tolerances complimented each other...

 

In the void of official guidance Mechanics went to great lengths to address
the symptom but failed to establish the root cause... the hard coat damage
was still miss matched cam bearing blocks... the evidence they needed to
look at carefully is the fact the edges of the cams fails first... their pet
theory of a lack of oil would make the center fail first...

 

Honda would never modified their engines by depleting critical oil
form the main galley and take a chance to starve the main bearings
just to reroute oil to the top end... it's a kin to robbing Peter to
pay Paul... there's only so much oil an engine will pump...

 

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19 hours ago, Grum said:

Guess you could jump ship and go for the 2020 Ducati Superleggera V4. 234hp 998cc with full carbon fibre swingarm all up weight of 152kg's ! All yours for only a cool $100,000 US.!!

 

 

Cut my wrist and it will bleed Honda red but for $28K Ducati is the current champion of the V4 for the masses...

 

2020 Ducati V4 Road Racing World

 

Ducati is a case study of "Build it and they will come." While some
manufacturers are sputtering along, Ducati continues to grow-
especially in the 1000cc+ segment-and these are not cheap motorcycles.
Ducati representatives now claim that V4 model variants earned 25% of
the 1000cc-and-up sportbike market worldwide in 2018 and 2019. Ducati
also claims the V4 models have helped increase market share in the
United States. The claims of increased sales and market share aren't
surprising. Ducati came out swinging with the V4 in 2018, then used
the direct link from its successful MotoGP program to make the sale.

They sold me with 200+ horsepower and a counter-rotating crankshaft.
But, based on the $28,395 pricing, and the state of the industry, the
riders buying V4 Ducatis are not new customers: They're converts from
other brands. Which means Ducati is winning the battle of the
manufacturers, at least in the 1000cc+ sportbike segment. The Ducati
recipe for success is making a stylish, high-performance motorcycle
with MotoGPderived technology, then building a community through
marketing and education. The final key to the puzzle is the Ducati
Ride Experience program, offering customers the opportunity to train
with qualified advanced riding instructors. The program has been one
of Ducati's best tools for converting customers from other brands.
Education and improving skills are also great for customer retention

DucatiPanigaleV4a.JPG

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6 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

 

Cut my wrist and it will bleed Honda red but for $28K Ducati is the current champion of the V4 for the masses...

 

What masses are going to spend $28k on a bike? That's pretty steep.

 

Not me. But I love my Monster 1200. Weighs about 100 pounds less than my sold VFR, and has much more torque and HP.

Just what I wanted. Less weight, more powah. I can live without 200 HP. And it cost about $11k with tax, used for 2xxx miles. So barely used, and a lot more affordable.

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In regards to V4 bikes I see a lot of attention to Ducati but what about Aprilia?  Anyone like the Tuono?  I took one for a test ride years ago and was stunned by it's power.  It's not super expensive either.  Or if you want something more sporty and more spendy there is the RSV4.

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I had an '03 Tuono and an '07. They were V twins. Fun bikes, fast and good handling.

The Rotax motors are pretty bullet proof.

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The Aprilia V4s are fabulous, and 10 years ahead of Ducati. They've been tweaking it to perfection. I think it was Sport Rider who did a top sport bike comparison a year or so ago after the Ducati came out. It included the R1, S1000RR, Kawi, and Honda. Most of the test was at a track and the Aprilia RSV4 beat them all.

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2 hours ago, 4corsa said:

The Aprilia V4s are fabulous, and 10 years ahead of Ducati. They've been tweaking it to perfection. I think it was Sport Rider who did a top sport bike comparison a year or so ago after the Ducati came out. It included the R1, S1000RR, Kawi, and Honda. Most of the test was at a track and the Aprilia RSV4 beat them all.

 

Aprilias are fabulous but their V4 is a narrow 65º and not ideal 90º
like Ducati... narrow angle V4 matter enough that Aprilia in 2020
MotoGp are sporting the ideal 90º... so hold your coin for the new and
improved 90º coming to a dealer near you..... 

 

Quote Jeremy Burgess

"Every engineer I've spoken to about engine design for a motorcycle, and that
means even Yamaha and Honda, they've all said a 90º V is ideal.

 

 

Aprilia65V4.jpg

Aprilia90V4.jpg

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Maybe it's just me - I never understood why Honda made the 1200 engine a 76 degree design vs the traditional 90.  Maybe there was an advantage to it - but whatever it was it doesn't seem that material a difference. Had it been 60 or 65 and they told me it was so it's more compact, ok - but at 76, why not just make it a 90 degree motor?  Ah well - that ship sailed long ago. 

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Although I love Ducati (I'm on my 4th and did more than a dozen track days on my 749), and agree there is a lot of useful trickle down technology from Moto GP, not necessarily everything translates to the street. What's best for lap times at Estoril is not always best for how we ride. I think World Superbike with production based engines and frames have a more direct relationship to the sport bikes we ride. By the 2nd year in SBK, Aprilia's RSV4 was dominant.
The 90° layout might be best for 250 hp Moto GP bikes, but I haven't yet been convinced it's an advantage over the narrower Aprilia layout for sport bikes. And as mentioned, the Aprilia trounced the new Ducati V4 in a head to head test last year (granted, the Aprilia had 10 years of refinement to draw on). Undoubtedly they're both incredible bikes, and let's be honest, 99.9% of us are only capable of riding them at 75% of their capabilities on a good day. The very idea that we could buy a 5 year old RSV4 for under $10k with all that technology is mind-blowing. How lucky we are!

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12 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

 

Aprilias are fabulous but their V4 is a narrow 65º and not ideal 90º

Both fantastic engines! But....

No ideal engine exist - they are all compromises. Yes, a 90 degree V4 have perfect primary balance and therefore no need for a balance shaft. It suffers from uneven firing order (how depends on crank), takes up lots of real estate longitudinally etc. Depending of the application pros and cons can swap.

Honda claims it was an advantage to have a piston moving at all times averaging torque better to the rear wheel and accepted to live with uneven pulses of combustion torque (one of several claims) - is it important for a 300 hp track bike - does it matter as much for a 100 hp VFR 800?

And my final comment - how much is because manufacturers are playing us with marketing USP’s... 😉 For example the Honda’s super complicated V4 4 stroke NR 500 - did not make sense from an engineering/competition point of view? No, but could have boosted marketing’s case for 4 strokes

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On 2/18/2020 at 10:07 PM, St. Stephen said:

4corsa, I agree. The 8th gen is a re-packaged 6th. Looks great, but certainly not a new bike.

The 8G is NOT a repackaged 6G.. come on man....you must own a 6G.. ...LOL!!

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9 hours ago, flya750 said:

The 8G is NOT a repackaged 6G.. come on man....you must own a 6G.. ...LOL!!

They are different bikes but with the same frame and same engine.

 

Virtually every generation of VFRs were a significant redesign with entirely redesigned frame and engine. 

 

With that said, I would rather pay $6k for an 8th gen with 10k miles than $3k for a 6th gen with the same miles. The 8th gen is overall a better machine.

  • Haha 1

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Many good points. But the twins that are being offered are not awesome either. All the bikes look the same. I am riding an EX500 Ninja lately while my VFR is being rejuvenated. That is a nice little bike. The CBR500 is sweet, too. But that styling is, as my old man would say Pablum. Now if they would sell some of these over here:

image.png.45dca34547392f3496ed2a405019f74d.png

CB400 super4.jfif

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I had 2 of the old CB 400 4 Super Sports - wish I had the Yellow '77 back. GREAT bikes. 

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21 hours ago, 8200rpm said:

With that said, I would rather pay $6k for an 8th gen with 10k miles than $3k for a 6th gen with the same miles. The 8th gen is overall a better machine.

I own a 6 gen and have rode my buddies 8 gen extensively on a few tours. I would agree, the 8 is a better bike but... I really like the RWB paint job of my 07 as well as the under tail exhaust. I know it’s superficial reasoning but the heart wants what it wants. Now if Honda would’ve brought the RWB 8 gen they sold in Japan here to the States I would’ve been down to the dealer as they were unloading the crates off the truck.

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1 hour ago, Calculon said:

I own a 6 gen and have rode my buddies 8 gen extensively on a few tours. I would agree, the 8 is a better bike but... I really like the RWB paint job of my 07 as well as the under tail exhaust. I know it’s superficial reasoning but the heart wants what it wants. Now if Honda would’ve brought the RWB 8 gen they sold in Japan here to the States I would’ve been down to the dealer as they were unloading the crates off the truck.

Same for me had it been 1,000 cc . . . 

 

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