-
Posts
4,435 -
Joined
-
Days Won
119
Cogswell last won the day on March 14
Cogswell had the most liked content!
About Cogswell
Profile Information
-
Location
Riot City, Oregon :(
-
In My Garage:
1999 VFR
2008 VFR ABS
1995 VFR - gone but not forgotten
Recent Profile Visitors
29,338 profile views
Cogswell's Achievements
-
Hard to believe it's been that long ago. It will be 25 years this Dec that I took delivery of my (then) new 5th gen. Still have it - SO glad I kept it.
-
What were the real differences between the 5th and 6th gen?
Cogswell replied to fabio222's topic in Sixth Generation VFR's
Count me among those . . . swapped mine during the Covid lockdown in '20, was great to have something to do whilst stuck at home. Main things I can think of * 5th gen engine bolts right in to the 5th gen frame - no mods needed. * The "cushion" (Honda's term - I would call it "swing arm mount") that connects the swingarm to the engine is different - requires a 6th gen version to mount to the engine * Yes, the swingarms are slightly different * 5th gen uses remote coils with HT leads, 6 gen is 3 wire COP setup. This is the BIG thing to contend with in doing a swap. I retained COPs. Alternative is to source 5th gen harness and ECU and swap all that over. * 6th gen rads are larger, IIRC 2 additional rows * 5th gen cylinder heads are about 1 1/2" shorter - creates no issues * Shorter heads mean that the cam timing marks no longer appear through the inspection hole in the 6th gen frame (most people don't know why that hole is there). Makes valve adjustments more difficult. Suggest checking valves prior to doing swap * Despite cylinder head differences, throttle bodies are a direct swap * Hoses, thermostat, everything cooling system is interchangeable * If keeping 6th gen electronics, you WILL need a VTEC solenoid connected to the harness or you will get a no-start * 5th gen has a smaller alternator than 03 and up 6th gens. Currently swapping a 6th gen alternator over. * Despite all the similarities in the engine block, water pump, etc, 5 & 6 G alternator covers are different and do not interchange. * As mentioned above 4th through 6th gen gear ratios are different. The 5th gen is under-driven by 1 additional tooth, makes for about 200 rpm or so increase at 70 mph cruise. Barely noticeable. * Power output is indistinguishable. Honda did not add VTEC for power, torque or any other discernable butt-dyno reason. Maybe emissions, marketing, or who knows why. I don't miss it, and I do NOT miss the insanely difficult valve adjustments on the VTEC - the main reason I swapped it out. * Despite keeping 6th gen electronics, there is no VTEC "hit or kick" . There is a subtle change going through 6,800, but if no one knew about it, they would have no idea - nothing like it is stock. * Wheels and front rotors are interchangeable. * 6th gen brake system has 2 proportioning control valves vs 5th gen 1 - bleeding procedure is similar, but different. The linked brakes are plumbed differently between the 2. * 6th gen has available factory luggage * I have seen 6th gen tanks swapped to a 5th gen - doable but requires trimming the 5th gen bodywork in the front where it curves around the tank * 6th gen has available ABS. I've read that about 10% came with ABS, but I know of no documentation of that. On 1 occasion I was glad to have ABS, for me a good addition. * 5th gen has more room under the seat. That's probably more than anyone wants to hear. Owning both, I don't note much difference between them. And now, having one swapped, there's even less. If it weren't for ABS and the factory luggage for long-haul riding, I would probably stick with the 5th gen. However parts are getting harder to find for them, so I don't know how much longer they will be practical for daily or long trip riding. There are still times when I start the 6th gen that I just look at it and still can't get used to hearing that whine from the cams. For my $, that was the best engine Honda ever did or will make. I'm super happy with it. -
My 5G gasket(s) finally came in, which gave me the confidence to remove the 5G stator from its cover. I got to measuring the differences between the 5th and 6th gen versions, and it would seem that about the only similarity between them is that the inner mounting diameters and bolt patterns are the same. That's where it ends. I'll lay out the measurements I took below, using a digital slide caliper. Some of the measurements could be made accurately and repeatably, but others were somewhat guesses where the wire wrapped around each of the poles. It probably requires an electrical engineer with familiarity of these types of alternators to definitively say whether this makes a difference to power potential at various RPM's of each - definitely beyond my ability. I measured in inches - apologies to metric folks, but you get the idea. 5G 6G Inner mounting circumference 1.65 1.65 Outer circumference 4.23 4.54 Core thickness 1.05 .89 Height of pole(s) above core .84 .90 Width of each pole 1.40 1.30 Depth of pole .54 .59 The last 3 measurements took some estimating. The wiring obscures the true measurement, so I did my best to keep it consistent. The last item is interesting. The core appears to be a stack of plates vs a solid block of machined or cast metal. The 5th gen clearly has thicker ones. I used a fine dental pick to drag over each , counting each click as it slid across. The 5G core had a count of 22, and the 6G a count of 46. I could be off by a few - regardless it's quite noticeable just looking at it. But does that make any difference to the power potential of the stator? My intuition says no, but if not then why would Honda make such a significant change? Lastly, the 4 mounting bolts are significantly different length. I put the 6G core in the 5G cover and ran the bolts down by hand. Something seemed odd as I encountered resistance from the bolts but the core had play in it relative to the cover. Be careful if doing this swap and using the 5G bolts - with the 6G thinner core, shorter bolts will be required or the result could be stripped threads in the cover. In summary, the 6th gen stator is larger diameter, thinner, with poles (both have 18) that are taller but narrower. Possibly this allows for more wraps of wire which might be helpful - not sure. At any rate, it's not clear to me what this swap might accomplish. My real interest is in improving output at idle, as voltage going down the road is a steady 14.5v. It's mostly at stops particularly when the fan is running that things go south and I see low 12's for voltage. I am running an 847 R/R, so it's not OEM. If there's anyone that definitively knows if the differences in two stators would produce different results, it would be great to hear. Cheers
-
The last MC show in the NW part of the country was I think in 2014. At that one, Honda did not even have the then new 8th gen on hand. When I asked the two Honda reps about it, they looked at each other and shrugged. Things have really changed.
-
This is great - made in USA! I hadn't seen this one. I'm leery about offshore ones made from who knows what. Many thanks for the link.
-
Thanks bro! Hangin' in there. So another question related to this. Before I got ahead of myself and removed the stator from the 5th gen cover, I thought better to check to see if the gasket is available - it's stuck to the cover and I'll probaby ruin it to remove the stator. The gasket is NLA from Honda. So . . . there are aftermarket options on ebay. Does anyone have any experience with one or the other (or from a non-ebay source) that might be a good pick for a replacement? Thanks to all!
-
I'm not sure about reliability - my 6th gen seems to eat stators like potato chips at a Super Bowl party. The 6th gen's is larger diameter, 4.52" vs 4.26" on the 5th gen, about 6.1% larger. IDK how much more power that translates in to. The yellow output wires for both measure 2.2mm outer diameter around the yellow insulation, so the same. Custom Rewind, below, put 2.9mm OD wire on my 6th gens, so a big improvement. If anyone is wondering, Custom Rewind is still in business. I talked to them about a week ago. They did my 6th gen's 1st rewind and it was great. Cost now is $135 shipped back to you. Phone is 205-798-7282. 2014 Pratt Hwy, Birmingham, AL. 35214 If you leave a message they will eventually call you back. They will give you a custom length wire and whatever connector you specify. Probably should call them 1st before asking for the latter.
-
How has this been working out long term? Is there any update on clearance issues that might have arisen? I'm a bit nervous about trying it - the 5th gen cover is on the left, 6th gen on the right. I thought the covers would swap, but they don't. They're sufficiently different that I'm not sure I can sufficiently measure to be sure the flywheel won't rub on the inner cover where it tapers to the outside. Thanks for any updates! Cheers
-
Good write up by Mohawk some time back on this subject. Click on the links in the thread for photos. This thread used to be on VFRD, not sure what happened to it - maybe it began on this website. Regardless, it gives direct comparisons between 5 & 6 G coolers as well as RC51. Also shows a Hyabusa cooler. For a G6 nothing will be plug and play, space and mounting options are limited. https://www.twtex.com/forums/threads/honda-vfr-oil-cooler-swap.49827/
-
Let's say you bought a 6th gen with issues...
Cogswell replied to WDIV's topic in Sixth Generation VFR's
Ok, so I'm late to this - brand me a failure . . . ! Just a few random thoughts from my experiences with a 6th gen . . . On the ticking sound, that does sort of sound like the 'ticking time bomb' - LOL! I have never heard that from any bike. Very odd. Is there some accessory the p.o. would have added? Re surging, that's a well documented 6th gen issue - thank your elected representatives for urging the EPA to tighten their regs to save us from ourselves (leaning these things out to ridiculous levels). Generally, a PC or Rapid Bike will smooth those out. Also, sending the injectors off for a bench cleaning where flow and spray pattern are verified can also be helpful (easy on a 6th gen). Re the fan, either a single pole double throw (SPDT) or a double pole double throw (DPDT) switch can be very useful. The wire to the thermo sensor on the left rad is hot with the ignition on. All the thermo sensor does is ground the wire. Remove that wire and connect it to the center connector of the new switch. Then connect a second pole of the switch to ground and the 3rd pole of the switch to the thermo sensor. Now you can force the fan on, off or route current from the power wire to ground allowing normal automatic operation. It might seem odd to switch the fan to "off". The trouble is that when the fan is running it's sending air through the left rad in the opposite direction of the normal flow from moving forward, stalling flow over that rad. Once the engine gets over 220 and you get to speed, the fan continues running but works against the ram air flow, not knowing that you're moving. So turning the fan off can get ram air flow going again and cool things off faster once temps climb above 220 deg. If you get a DPDT switch, there will be two sets of connectors, you'll just use the connectors on one side, the others remain unused. As for 6th gens with issues, I didn't think there was such a thing as ones without! It's just all about dealing with them, which you seem to be well on your way to addressing. Eventually you'll probably have cam chain tensioner issues, but that's not a big deal - there are some threads here about that, too. Cheers. -
I'm going to guess that if someone figured out a way to retrofit that 8th gen design to add the forced oil cooling to the 6th gen alternator that spares for 8th gens would quickly dry up. I don't think it's simple - there seems to be some plumbing involved and maybe drilling of the block in to an oil passage that it's likely not practical. Stators on 6th gens are likely to remain a wear item that owners replace periodically so as not to be stranded with a dead battery. Just one of the quirks of owning those bikes.
-
I'll start off by saying I've never expeirenced any of that with my 5th gen. I'll offer my $.02 - YMMV. 1. If you believe it to be the brakes, do not confine your search for answers to that. I would go over the bike with a torque wrench, checking all components' fasteners for correct torque, from front suspension attachments, swingarm, engine mount bolts, everything including caliper mounting bolts, etc - eliminate all possibilities. It's free. Then get a dial indicator and check wheels for runout as well as brake rotors. If no improvement look for worn components - steering head bearings, front wheel bearings would be top of my list. Finally, what pads are you using? Are they glazed? A.M. pads can be of any unknown compounds. Complaints abound about cost re: OEM pads, but I always use them and have never had a problem. If still an issue, it will need other diagnosis. 2. CBS or not, the rear can fishtail with forward weight transfer. Generally mine has hunkered down and not lifted the rear wheel with the CBS, I've never had that happen no matter how hard the braking. Even with CBS, both wheels can skid - I've witnessed it. A sudden rate of brake application can unsettle any chassis. Maybe chat with a track instructor about that or have an instructor ride your bike and give you an opinion. 3. No opinion on that. Mine's never done it - tho my 4th gen sure did. 4. I've seen very few complaints about 5th gens with that issue, particularly the early ones with no cat. 6th gens are another matter, they seemed to be tuned very lean and a PC or Rapid Bike helps them significantly. On my 6th gen, removing the injectors and having them cleaned made a huge improvement in that. The ECU has no way of knowing if the injectors are not flowing per specification, so provides what it thinks is the appropriate fuel amount but when the engine does not get it, performance suffers. These bikes are now over 20 y.o., there's bound to be some varnish / fuel residue in the system. Injector bench cleaning would be a good maintenance practice. It is a PITA tho, b/c the throttle body must come off to do that. On 6th gens that was revised and all that's req'd is to raise the tank and remove the airbox. YMMV.
-
When was the last time the brake fluid was changed? The SMC on the left from caliper has a tiny opening that can cause the rear brake to drag - fluid goes through under pressure, can't come out if the system is gummed up with degraded brake fluid. There's a post somewhere in the maintenance threads about that.
-
Startup Miss/Knock/Ping/Piston slap?
Cogswell replied to twistednoble's topic in Sixth Generation VFR's
The sound being more prevalent on the right side would be consistent with the location of the CCT's. The pic is of a 6th gen motor out of the bike. The green arrows show the location of each. The front is a bit more difficult to access due to the throttle body, thermostat, etc. If you remove the center bolt, be careful of the crush washer under the bolt. If you drop it in to the V, you won't retrieve it with a magnet, it's aluminum. DAMHIK . . . Be wary of videos on line of people showing how to "rebuild" a CCT - generally by over tightening (and stretching) an already tired spring. Seems there has been good success with replacing the CCTs with new ones and they seem fairly reasonable to purchase. Best of luck with it.