Not The Oil Questions You Expected... :)

[ember1205]

Hi, all.

New to me 2000 VFR, just South of 40k on the clock. Previous owner was decent with his general maintenance, and always used regular dino oil for the motor. I'm wondering what the risks are if I try to swap to full synthetic at this point. Here's what I'm interested in knowing from those with direct experience:

- Dino, blend, or full syn... Ultimately, which one allows for multi-season riding with good lubrication for the motor and keeps the MPGs decent?

- Is switching to full syn from full dino at 40k advisable? Do I run any real risk of leaks or other similar type issues?

- Is there any real benefit to switching to either a synthetic blend or full syn at all?

I expect to ride it basically from April until November, when nice weather allows. Shorter trips, not much commuting or highway use. It's completely a recreational vehicle. I would expect to put anywhere from 2k to 4k on it in a season.

[thtanner]

There should be no risks. Any good full synth is fine. I use Mobil1 4T, my friend likes Motul 300V. Whatever is your preference; I don't see an issue.

[FJ12Ryder]

No issues. Left over rumors from way back when. I run 15W-40 full sythetic Castol Syn-tech. No problems so far.

If you change your oil every year with only 3-4000 miles, then synthetic is kind of overkill. Not that it won't work

very well, but with those short intervals a good dino will work just fine and save you some dough at the same

time. Check out Rotella T3, an excellent oil.

[JDMBird]

On my old '94, my dad had ran Honda GN4 (I think that's the standard oil type) from the day he got it in '96. When he passed it along to me, it had around 25k on the clock, and I switched to Mobil1 4T. I ran it up to 37k before I let my little brother take it out and lay it down into a guard rail. That motor is still flawless to this day ( bike itself is currently being rebuilt by a friend). I've also switched from dino oil to full synthetic in my cages with no issues caused by the switch with mileage ranging anywhere from 60k, to 150k, all the way up to 250k at the switching point. For each of those vehicles, the motor outlasted the rest of the vehicle by far.

[ember1205]

No issues. Left over rumors from way back when. I run 15W-40 full sythetic Castol Syn-tech. No problems so far.

If you change your oil every year with only 3-4000 miles, then synthetic is kind of overkill. Not that it won't work

very well, but with those short intervals a good dino will work just fine and save you some dough at the same

time. Check out Rotella T3, an excellent oil.

I get what you're saying, and I've thought of the fact that syn would seemingly be much more than I really -need-. I'm just thinking of the long-term health of the motor, keeping it running smooth, maximum fuel efficiency, etc. If it costs me an extra $15/year for the oil change, that seems pretty cheap to me.

[Guest]

According to Jim Wolf Racing, who builds all out racing turbo Nissans, the biggest advantage of synthetics is that, because of better film cling, they protect much better than dino at cold start up,which is when most of the engine wear occurs.

[ember1205]

According to Jim Wolf Racing, who builds all out racing turbo Nissans, the biggest advantage of synthetics is that, because of better film cling, they protect much better than dino at cold start up,which is when most of the engine wear occurs.

And yet, because of the requirement to use full synthetic oil in my snowmobile motor, it has to be fogged for the summer because the oil doesn't adhere to the motor internals as well as pure dino oil.

[BCmcrider]

I have a 2000 and switched to synthetic Rotella T6 at about 50,000kms. No issues. Also use a Fram 7317 filter for the past 50,000kms so likely I'll explode in a ball of fire soon.

[MadScientist]

I always hate to get into these things because there is always some qualitative aspect to certain motor oil qualities and they often get off topic. However, mineral group II and III (hydrotreat/cracked) and group v synthetic ester based oils generally have more polar (molecular dipole moment) molecules that interact more strongly with metal surfaces in the engine. The amount of charged ion components in the additive package also influences surface adhesion of a given lubricant, so film cling must be looked at on an individual formulation basis.

And on topic: depending on the detergent mixture/content of the mineral oil vs that of the replacement synthetic, you may see increased clearing of engine deposits following the change to full synthetic. This isn't really related to the base stock of the oil though.

[digitallyhip]

I have a 2000 and switched to synthetic Rotella T6 at about 50,000kms. No issues. Also use a Fram 7317 filter for the past 50,000kms so likely I'll explode in a ball of fire soon.

Not the same filter, though. Right, Ian?

And: +1000 for Rotella T6

[BCmcrider]

I have a 2000 and switched to synthetic Rotella T6 at about 50,000kms. No issues. Also use a Fram 7317 filter for the past 50,000kms so likely I'll explode in a ball of fire soon.

Not the same filter, though. Right, Ian?

And: +1000 for Rotella T6

I guess I did say "a" filter, but no, I've gone through several of them. Not sure if there is any difference in any of them. If you look up filter cross reference, each one covers a huge number of various machines, cars, bikes etc.

[y2kvfr]

I use M1 High Mileage synthetic. Doesn't have the friction modifiers, but isn't moto specific (_*gasp*_)

[YoshiHNS]

The price of Rotella jumped from 18/gal to 25/gal here. Was going to switch to it, but maybe I'll just use the last of the GN4 for now.

[BusyLittleShop]

The only difference between straight petroleum and a 100% synthetic
such as Mobil 1 are the size of the molecules... synthetic is still crude from
the ground but it is engineered with an expensive Ethylene gas
process to produce the uniform size molecules... this is very desirable
in our oil because it will decreases friction and increases flow and flow is

paramount...

Understanding Flow

Flow is what really lubricates our engines not pressure... pressure
and flow are inverse proportional... you can have pressure at the
expense of flow... an increased in flow is an increased in cooling by
the oil... an increase in flow works harder to separate the engine
parts that are under very high stress... an increase in flow means
less internal drag and more HP at the rear wheel...Typically,
synthetic oils same size molecules sport a higher viscosity index...
This is another reason why they are better suited for the wide range
of temperatures and riding conditions associated with motor-cycle use.
They require little or no Viscosity modifiers... synthetic oils
typically will hold their viscosity grade longer and thus will rate a
higher index number than non synthetic...

Uniform size molecules of synthetic oil

Variable size molecules of refined crude

What about viscosity???

If there is one thing a owner has control over its the viscosity of
their oil... so going by the official Honda manual I may choose either
30wt 40wt or 50wt... this means that according to the Engineers who
designed the engine any one the three viscosities are safe to reach
your longevity expectations... there is mounting evidence that this is
true because no one is complaining about selling their bike because
the engine is worn out rather riders just grow tired and want
something new...

So if you ask me what is the best oil I will say the one that gives
the most RWHP without wearing out your engine and lowers your
operating temp during summer... and that means any car or motorcycle
specific 100% synthetic 30 weight... I don't worry about running the
lower viscosity 30 because it has proven to meet any owners mileage
expectations... Oil engineers know that flow not pressure lubricates
our prized engines and its time we learn that fact too... its no
brainier that 30 weights flow more than 40 or 50 and 100% synthetics
flow more than straight Dino...


Clutches

Technically speaking there is no oil that can not defeat a wet clutch
in good working order... what is confusing the issue is the fact that
all motorcycle wet clutches will reach a point in their life and start
to slip... no one complains about clutch slip when the bike is new...
but on about the 27K to 57K range is when containments may build up to
point where the clutch begins to loose its grip... this is usually
discovered by the owner during WFO (Wide Fooking Open)throttle like at
a track day... in error one can blame the oil but its really the
contaminants on the clutch plates...

So the belief that we should stay away from Energy Conserving oil is
on shaky ground... fact is I've been using 10/30 Energy Conserving
Mobil 1 since 98 in Mr.RC45 with no clutch slipping due to oil being
certified 10% freer flowing than non EC oil... and it's a 27K
homologated racer with a tall first gear good for 90mph that's known
to incinerate clutch plates...

Actual Viscosity explained

Every oil company list viscosity of their oil at 2 temps 40ºC / 104ºF
(room temp) and 100ºC / 212ºF (operating temp)

Actual viscosity Mobil 1 grade 0-30 synthetic oil...
At 40ºC / 104ºF viscosity = 56.7 cS
At 100ºC / 212ºF viscosity = 10.3 cS

Actual viscosity Mobil 1 grade 0-40 synthetic
At 40ºC / 104ºF viscosity = 80 cS
At 100ºC / 212ºF viscosity = 14 cS

Actual viscosity of Mobil 1 grade 15 50 synthetic...
At 40ºC / 104ºF viscosity = 125 cS
At 100ºC / 212ºF viscosity = 17.4 cS

The thickness of moving oil is measured in centiStokes or cS. The
motorcycle engineers design the pump and blow off so the ideal oil
viscosity is around 10 cS at normal operating temp of 100c or 212F...
The really thick multigrade oils such as 50Wt have a viscosity of 17.4
cS at operating temperature. Contrary what some people believe 50 is
not twice as thick as 30, it is only 7.3 cS thicker... or 7.3 cS less freer
flowing...

Synthetic Oils measured viscosity at start up during a hot 104º day
(on a chilly 60º day the oil viscosity is even higher)...

50wt 125
40wt 80
30wt 56

Oils measured viscosity at 212ºF operating temp...

50wt 17.4
40wt 14
30wt 10.2

You can see what the problem with oil is... its too thick at room
temp and just right at operating temps... the lesson that should be learned is
idle the engine up to operating temp of 100ºC / 212ºF before selecting first
gear if you wish to properly lubricate your engine...

Mr.RC45 with 55K on the odometer thrives on Mobil 1 0W-30

[Dedofnite]

Hey Ember,

Is VFRD the coolest school, or what!! All Honda manuals still say: "Engine oil quality is the chief factor affecting engine service life and performance." With updated wording over the past 60 years or so. Plain old dino oil is still used and recommended by Honda, as are the synthetics. I try to go with the manual recommendation for the year and model, as per the manufacturer when it comes to viscosity, temperature range, and dust conditions. Can't go wrong there. The difference in expensive vs. inexpensive is not real huge in a street bike situation, and race bikes just get fresh oil all the time. I use synthetic in just about everything, just for the longevity of the more stable consistent molecular structure. With dino oil I would just change it more often. My usual pick is Repsol, Motul or BelRay. Whatever is on sale. Cars, I use Mobil1. Remember, bikes use the same oil for the transmission, unlike cars. The brainy guys here would know better, but I think the synthetics hold up better in the shear and just plain wearing out department. I change once or twice a year, depending on mileage. With dino oil I would do 2 or 3 times. Really good information on this post, yeah?

We got history class from FJ and JD. A lesson in molecular chemistry from Mad. An encyclopedia on engine hydro-dynamics from Busy. And Tanner, along with Honda, says: relax, pick your poison and use it, oil is oil. Just make sure you change it when you're supposed to!

I am constantly amazed at the depth of knowledge and willingness to share on this site!

Thanks to all you guys and girls for the input. Enjoy the ride.

Ded

[spud786]

You mean the only difference between Dino and fake synthetics. There are several non synthetic labled oils, that use the same technology. But the synthetic lables are a big money maker.

[gll429]

baby oil!! fresh squeezed! make a sandwich with the rest!

[Beck]

The old (back in the 80's) belief was, if you switch over from Dino oil to a high detergent synthetic like Mobil 1, at high mileage, the sludge that they say some Dino oils (Pennzoil was mentioned a lot) sometimes deposit in you engine after some miles, will get dislodged from nooks and crannies in your engine, possibly blocking off some of the smaller oil galleries and passages, leading to oil starvation for some components in the engine, and possibly engine damage.

Not sure if that was ever proven to be the case, but it did get some people thinking about it back then.......

[Dedofnite]

NOOOOO, really, Spud??? You mean marketing isn't true? Like fake sugar will "make you skinny AND healthy" ? And, "100% organically grown" ? Ha ha!

Well, gll, they did use pig fat for wheel bearings a long time ago...

Beck, I'm pretty sure that DID happen to a few people who only changed their oil when they couldn't see any in the little window anymore, or didn't even know there WAS a dip stick... :unsure2:

Ded

[WGREGT]

I have always used Honda non-synthetic GN4 on all my stuff. Swap it every 3k.

[Switchblade]

Turn into a another oil thread !!!

[Veefer800Canuck]

Don't they always?

In all my cages, I use dino oil all summer, because it's cheaper, and synthetic in the winter, to get a nice low viscosity oil for the nasty -40 winter weather.

Never had an oil related issue in any of my cars/trucks, ever.

Swapping back and forth is a non-issue.

[BusyLittleShop]

I use M1 High Mileage synthetic. Doesn't have the friction modifiers, but isn't moto specific (_*gasp*_)

Friction modifiers additives are only a small percent of the total oil

product and help the base oil do things that it otherwise could not...

Additives fall into several basic categories but Moly is the most

often used friction modifier because it has such a high melting

temperature (4730¯ F versus 2795¯ F for iron), it works great as a

high-temperature, high-pressure antiwear agent. Some claim that

because moly is so slick, it can cause clutch slippage... but note

that 6 of the 19 motorcycle oils Sport Rider tested used moly

including the HP4 market by Honda for any of their motorcycles...

[Dedofnite]

Good info Busy. Honda did have some trouble with the HP4 Moly when they started using the "slipper" clutches in some of the bikes, V twins and a few others, if I remember correctly. They warrantied enough of them that they sent out a service bulletin to not use Moly in those specific bikes. I remember trying it in my CBX, and it didn't cause any clutch issues, but did seep past some gaskets and made a black, ugly mess on the engine. I think they re-formulated and that is not a problem anymore.

ded

[mello dude]