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sfdownhill

New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

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Thanks highside, yep just using Mohawk's pic to visually check the posi of MTB o2 sensor. 

 

OP

:wacko:header will have two O2 sensor bosses at 2000-2009 OEM header's O2 sensor locations: one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after left front/left rear primary merge, one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after right front/right rear primary merge

Cheers  

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I have a PC5 on my ‘98 and it runs perfect. 

 

In response to “Voided76” being curious about gearing affecting horsepower readings, it does not. It only aids in the engine’s mechanical advantage over the wheel, but, does not change engine output or horsepower numbers read by a dyno. 

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47 minutes ago, ducnut said:

I have a PC5 on my ‘98 and it runs perfect. 

 

In response to “Voided76” being curious about gearing affecting horsepower readings, it does not. It only aids in the engine’s mechanical advantage over the wheel, but, does not change engine output or horsepower numbers read by a dyno. 

 

Thanks ducnut - that's a relief to hear. It sounds like you have connected the pink speed wire for speed/gear sensing, correct? Have you also connected the temperature sensor input to the PCV? 

 

PCV clearly offers significant advantages, but if it presented any headaches/delays during the dyno sessions, it would quickly lose favor. I'll get the PCV installed and test run early next week.

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Here it is...a real header made of real molecules.

There are a number of extra welds - especially in the primaries - because this is a built-from-scratch prototype. The welds along the primaries, secondaries, and collector will not be present in the production headers because the bender vendor will be setting up a mandrel to bend all the tubing to Wade's specifications, so he won't have to weld shorter sections together as he did on the prototype.

We'll be heading over to pick up the prototype tomorrow afternoon or next Wednesday. We've got the exhaust off of an innocent donor 5th gen and will take the bike to Wade's shop to confirm fitment or make adjustments on site. It was a little nerve wracking that he built straight from the TBR without confirming fitment, but if he's not worried about it, we're not worried about it!

1433751036_originalprototype1.thumb.JPG.c7a6e28909a0e735d4df0d431b4beb9b.JPG

472539107_originalprototype2.thumb.JPG.ed1c46489f51586275a00514b4a5f875.JPG

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44 minutes ago, sfdownhill said:

 

Thanks ducnut - that's a relief to hear. It sounds like you have connected the pink speed wire for speed/gear sensing, correct? Have you also connected the temperature sensor input to the PCV? 

 

I bought it used with the map in it. The only connections I made were to the EFI interface and battery. It came with no instructions, download cables, etc; just the module itself. 

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Can’t wait for the results. 99% I’ll be in for a 5th gen header.


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May I please tap into the collective knowledge base about O2 sensor bung placement?

 

Jozef, the dyno tech/engine builder/tuner at Attack Performance, recommends an O2 sensor in each primary 7 inches from the port for optimum tuning. Jozef has Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors that he installs to facilitate his tuning. The O2 sensors will be removed and the bungs plugged after the dyno tuning process is completed.

 

Wade - the man actually building the headers - does not like the idea of an O2 sensor protruding into each of the four primaries, and strongly recommends against installing them. He does find it acceptable to install a sensor in each primary if the bung height is set such that the sensor's business end does not extend into the gas flow path in the primary. Whether we enable Jozef to tune each cylinder individually, or tune the fueling of all four cylinders together, we will have him set up the PCV's gear sensing and optimize fueling for each gear.

 

In pursuit of optimized tuning of the new header, I seek wise counsel from Mohawk, HighSideNZ, CandyRedRC46, MadScientist, and others who have experimented with O2 sensors for tuning via autotune, dyno, or laptop-strapped-to-bike:

 

[1] Would O2 sensors in all four primaries interrupt the exhaust flow enough to be detrimental?

 

[2] Would Jozef's Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors function correctly if their bungs were placed at a height such that the sensor tips did not extend in to the gas flow?

 

[3] Would the advantages of Jozef being able to tune each cylinder's fueling individually outweigh the potential penalty brought by the O2 sensors' position in the primaries?

 

[4] On a Bosch 4.9 wideband O2 sensor, what is the measured distance from its deepest thread point [where it seats against the bung] to the end tip of its sensor?

 

[5] Should I cease and desist attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist and have Jozef shove a single sniffer down the tailpipe, then tune a single map for all four cylinders combined?

 

Thanks for kicking in suggestions

 

 

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20 minutes ago, ScottieDucati said:

Can’t wait for the results. 99% I’ll be in for a 5th gen header.


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Sounds good Scottie. BTW, you have discerning taste in race bikes!

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Sounds good Scottie. BTW, you have discerning taste in race bikes!


Ha! Thanks.... waiting on a new header for my NC30 too. My TBR is a bit long in the tooth....


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All the high-end stuff has sensors in the individual runners. What I can’t say is how far they protrude into exhaust flow.

 

Richard and Jozef know their stuff, given they’ve went so far as to try and campaign a prototype bike in MotoGP (no matter what platform it was based off of), have built some the fastest bikes on the planet and in any paddock, and have bikes that currently remain at the pointy end of any grid. I’d be most inclined to follow their advice, since they’re on the frontline and have firsthand knowledge of what does what. 

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Re 4 o2 sensors, 

I think that's the best tuning option for that bike but how does that effect the end  user that will have a different setup? 2 stock + 1 wideband 

 I will not be buying 4 MTB modules. Maybe if I was going down the path of diff cams , bigger pistons etc.

 

A Flipping prototype :cheerleader::bliss::woohoo:

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37 minutes ago, ducnut said:

All the high-end stuff has sensors in the individual runners. What I can’t say is how far they protrude into exhaust flow.

 

Richard and Jozef know their stuff, given they’ve went so far as to try and campaign a prototype bike in MotoGP (no matter what platform it was based off of), have built some the fastest bikes on the planet and in any paddock, and have bikes that currently remain at the pointy end of any grid. I’d be most inclined to follow their advice, since they’re on the frontline and have firsthand knowledge of what does what. 

 

Agreed, ducnut. You don't pay a lawyer $300/hour then ignore their advice. I'm working to reconcile Wade's concern as the builder with Richard and Jozef's thoroughly vetted tuning procedure. To fly in the face of Wade's direct recommendation at this point would send a message to him that our community does not intend to send.

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We are talking about road bike here not bleeding edge WSBK or MotoGP machines.

I would just stick with the 3 bungs as I outlined on my earlier marked up image.

I've had good results with this set up in the past.

we also need to keep in mind that most add on modules like the RB Racing and PCV will possibly have only 2 maps that directly relate to the OEM ECU and the way the fueling was originally laid out.  EG: What headers were merged etc.

 

My 2c worth.

 

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I'm of the 3 bungs camp.

 

Here's the deal, I think the ONLY person here who has a quad of sensors on a VFR is @CandyRedRC46 , and he already has a TBR exhaust.

 

I seriously doubt any of us are going to do more than one, or two, of these lambda sensors. It would be best to just sniff down the exhaust  and get the 4 cylinder average, just like we're all going to do. PCIII folks are going to dyno it with a sniffer in the tail, rapidbike MTB and PC Autotune folks are going to stick with our current sensors.

 

As for the question of whether 4 sensors will destroy the flow, I understand the concern. But @CandyRedRC46 had one in each downpipe and has posted impressive dyno runs. We're talking RC45 race bike level numbers on a 6th gen. 120hp is pretty impressive for a VFR. I don't think that's a problem, though if he's still paying attention maybe my tagging him will let HIM tell us of his reasoning. 

 

That said, I still don't think it's worth the effort for this particular exercise as most of us just want a nice header that isn't rotten or a chinese piece of marginal quality. A little gain in the high end is a nice benefit, I think most of us will be happy to see it, but the last 2% of horsepower or mileage you get from PERFECTLY balanced cylinder fueling can be left on the table.

 

Oh, also, note that a map on one bike is not going to be the same as a map on another. They may be close, but fine tuning each cylinder on a test bike won't match a differen't bike's airflow, fuel injector condition, etc.  If you're looking for a base map for PCIII or non AutoTune folks, I doubt it'll really be helpful for folks who want to build a map for their own bikes. After 20 years, they're all kind of snowflakes, especially with wear and mileage.

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4 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

In pursuit of optimized tuning of the new header, I seek wise counsel from Mohawk, HighSideNZ, CandyRedRC46, MadScientist, and others who have experimented with O2 sensors for tuning via autotune, dyno, or laptop-strapped-to-bike:

 

[1] Would O2 sensors in all four primaries interrupt the exhaust flow enough to be detrimental?

 

[2] Would Jozef's Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors function correctly if their bungs were placed at a height such that the sensor tips did not extend in to the gas flow?

 

[3] Would the advantages of Jozef being able to tune each cylinder's fueling individually outweigh the potential penalty brought by the O2 sensors' position in the primaries?

 

[4] On a Bosch 4.9 wideband O2 sensor, what is the measured distance from its deepest thread point [where it seats against the bung] to the end tip of its sensor?

 

[5] Should I cease and desist attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist and have Jozef shove a single sniffer down the tailpipe, then tune a single map for all four cylinders combined?

 

Thanks for kicking in suggestions

 

 

 

I can't say anything helpful about the first 3, so I'll just leave it alone.

 

For number 4 - the PCV + AT uses the LSU 4.2 sensor (yes, 4.2), I'm not sure if this has been updated on newer units.  They only sell one replacement regardless, so I'd assume they are all 4.2.

 

Dimensions of the LSU 4.2 tip in mm given on picture.  The only part with holes for sampling is the conical part at the very tip.  I can think of no reason that any part further back would need to go in the exhaust stream.

 

Number 5 - When it comes to me, I'm still just going to use the one sensor in the final merge.  If I was a racer looking for every advantage, then I'd certainly tune by cylinder.  YMMV.

 

O2 sensor.png

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Thanks for the solid input everyone. Between the solid recommendations here, the guys at Attack, and Wade, we’ll get an accurate result.

 

Separate note: it’s a good thing we had the injectors serviced - see printout below. Valve adjustment is taking place now.

F8C135FB-9B9A-4CEB-B790-C67123EF8FFE.thumb.jpeg.31c002967acbe5d61135ac6e57bb9a5f.jpeg

 

 

I’ve got a tech support ticket opened up w K&N to engage them in the search for the big mouth HA-8098. Even after putting photos of the two animals that both have K&N part number HA-8098 stamped into them, K&N is having a hard time getting their arms around the concept.

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I haven't been following closely, so forgive me if this has been discussed, but pipercross filters have complete filter coverage like the elusive HA-8098  

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16 minutes ago, gig said:

I haven't been following closely, so forgive me if this has been discussed, but pipercross filters have complete filter coverage like the elusive HA-8098  

I think candyredrc46 mentioned that pipercross was his preferred filter..

 

...just for info, I'm running a BMC filter, that's full width - seems to be fine.....----skip the k&n..

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3 hours ago, gig said:

I haven't been following closely, so forgive me if this has been discussed, but pipercross filters have complete filter coverage like the elusive HA-8098  

 

2 hours ago, mello dude said:

I think candyredrc46 mentioned that pipercross was his preferred filter..

 

...just for info, I'm running a BMC filter, that's full width - seems to be fine.....----skip the k&n..

 

The 5th gen that will be used to dyno test the new header is currently equipped with a Pipercross air filter. The Pipercross was clean and still moist with oil when last checked 2378 miles ago.

 

 

There was a thorough discussion of foam vs pleated filter mediums on an earlier header thread. RVFR relayed solid input from his dyno tuner, Mike Velasco, a legendary Honda V4 tuner [Mike tuned for Freddie Spencer, Fred Merkel, Bubba Shobert, etc]. RVFR, please chime in if I've gotten the information from Mr. Velasco wrong. I do recall that his recommendation was to get rid of the foam filter. The discussion begins in the link below, starting with the May 9 2017 post. MadScientist delivers an authoritative, experience-based treatise on the relationship of filter area, pore size [filtration], and pressure across the filter:

 

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/85354-5th-6th-vfr-800-header-build/&page=4

 

Checking it out the link he posted back in 2017 reveals that once again, mello dude is one of the best guys on the VFR planet to listen to; the BMC appears to have nearly [exactly?] the same oiled multi-layered cotton filter medium area as the mysterious big mouth K&N. BMC claims 'several layers' while K&N claims four. And the BMC is readily available - no manufacturer scavenger hunt required:

 

https://www.bmcairfilters.com/eng/standard-bike-filters/fm187-04-01/1440/art

image.thumb.png.c5bdc9c5fc71c0d7aae5d026f511ef78.png
 

 

Here's the big mouth K&N HA-8098, next to the standard K&N HA-8098:

1241631143_KN2.thumb.jpg.c8723d78d91ff36d8fe7246519105d9d.jpg

 

 

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13 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

[1] Would O2 sensors in all four primaries interrupt the exhaust flow enough to be detrimental?

 

[2] Would Jozef's Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors function correctly if their bungs were placed at a height such that the sensor tips did not extend in to the gas flow?

 

[3] Would the advantages of Jozef being able to tune each cylinder's fueling individually outweigh the potential penalty brought by the O2 sensors' position in the primaries?

 

[4] On a Bosch 4.9 wideband O2 sensor, what is the measured distance from its deepest thread point [where it seats against the bung] to the end tip of its sensor?

 

[5] Should I cease and desist attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist and have Jozef shove a single sniffer down the tailpipe, then tune a single map for all four cylinders combined?

Hey Lance,

 

So unless you have a system that can modify the fuel pulse on a per cylinder basis (i.e. a Rapid Bike Racing) then its pointless having per header O2 measurements.  The TBR was run & used with a PC3, one fuel pulse adjustment for all cylinders. The extra benefit for per header O2 tuning is negligable unless you have an injector that is way out of spec.

 

So in answer to your questoins;-

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. No

4. I can get this later as I have one in my garage in a box.

5. YES

 

Just run a bike with stock exhaust, then with new exhaust, it does NOT matter how the bike is configured, i.e. airfilter etc, you want to measure does this new exhaust increase the HP, anywhere with no or minimal losses everywhere else !?  Let the exhaust do the talking, first run it with NO fuelling mods & see how that goes, only stop if it is dangerously lean.

 

I had an issue with the fuel trims of my very modified bike & Dimsport advised to start with a zero map on the RBR unit, so I did. It ran fine & was only running a smidge warmer than before, so was not critically lean ! Possibly due to the narrow band O2 sensors being removed forcing the ECU to revert to the default rich backup map !

 

 

 

 

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Again, as to the air filter.

As long as ALL dyno runs are done with the same filter in generally the same clean condition that is all we can hope for.

We are building an exhaust system and not the total bike, so:

 

1.  Keep ALL other parameters static apart from fueling changes.

2. If it is an oiled filter, clean and oil it and run the bike with it for say 50/80 km BEFORE the first dyno run.

3. DO NOT alter the air filter between runs unless it has become contaminated in some way.

 

Honestly, to get the most consistent readings, a new standard paper filter would probably be the best way to go.

 

Remember, we are testing exhausts and nothing else.

 

So, get the fueling right with the standard pipes, read the power curve, then rinse and repeat with the new pipes.

 

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9 hours ago, MooseMoose said:

As for the question of whether 4 sensors will destroy the flow, I understand the concern. But @CandyRedRC46 had one in each downpipe and has posted impressive dyno runs. We're talking RC45 race bike level numbers on a 6th gen. 120hp is pretty impressive for a VFR. I don't think that's a problem, though if he's still paying attention maybe my tagging him will let HIM tell us of his reasoning. 

 

Hi MooseMoose,   do you have a link to CR46's dyno charts ?  I've been trying for years to get him to do a dyno run, but he always refused unless someone with a stock bike would rock up on the same day to be the standard to measure by on the same dyno, next/previous bike.  Perhaps you are confusing these with my dyno charts which have been on this site for years &/or HighSideNZ's from his 825cc big bore !?

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PS on the O2 sensor per header, I think you will find that your guys are living in the old world !  All modern O2 sensors are electronically heated so can operate anywhere in the exhaust system. The old ones were heated by the exhaust flow, so were best placed in the first 10"' of the header to ensure they heated up quickly & maintained an operational temperature. The new ones, can be anywhere in the header & get the same result. Resessing them from the header, so that the sensor tip is flush with the ID of the pipe, actually creates an eddy zone that should in theory make their reading more average, but they are best placed with just the triangular tip section protruding inside the ID of the pipe, being offset to one side they will not cause a full reflective pulse & should not hinder gas flow.  But if mounted on a standard bung, they can protrude quite a ways into a primary header, much less so in a secondary or later collector, thus one sensor where mine is has a very minor impact on flow, as the pipe cross section is much larger.

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