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New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

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Big shout out to moosemoose - thanks for loaning your carb synch suction tool gizmo so I can synch the starter valves!

 

Don't know how the new exhaust sounds yet - the fitment bike is a fair ways from running. I'm certainly among the curious about the sound.

 

Here are weights, based on bathroom scale technique, meaning I stepped on and off and reset the scale between readings until I got three identical readings, approximate to the tenth of a pound:

 

TBR with no springs installed [sorry, should have had the springs on to match up the weights, but a guy can only stand stepping on and off a bathroom scale so many times, and I didn't catch the missing springs until I was putting the TBR to bed]: 8.4 lbs [Is that really only 3.8 kg?]

 

Prototype with springs and O2 sensor bungs: 9.5 lbs 4.3 kg [again, only if my conversion math is correct]

 

 

Items that came to light with the prototype:

 

- the collector exit pipe is too close to the descending cylinder #1 primary. A factor here was the cylinder #1 primary should have stayed closer to the radius of the cylinder #3 primary as it swept down and forward toward the merge. This was partly because of modeling on the TBR, partly because of not having a fitment bike while building the jig. There will be more space between #1 primary and the collector exit on production headers.

 

- the vertical descending portions of #1 and #3 primaries at the slip joints are not parallel, which makes installation and removal a bit of a grunt. This also was attributed to modeling on the TBR. Upon inspection, sure enough, the TBR #1 and #3 primaries are not parallel where they are vertical behind the heat shield.

 

- how best to equip 6th gen owners with a center stand stop was not completely resolved. Possibilities are still being explored. Wade does not endorse welding on a bracket of the length that would be required to locate a stop in the OEM position [OEM stop bracket is fastened to the rear of the catalytic converter]. He is open to having midpipes sent to him to have a stop welded on, a la 5th gen [see photos]. He also can fabricate midpipes with  stops welded on.

 

- the 41mm crush washers [from Delkevic] closed down to 31.5mm id when the stud nuts were torqued - that's too small for our 32.5mm exhaust port.

 

- the skinny round cross section copper 42mm crush washers worked great [also from Delkevic but not listed on their website or ebay store]. You have to work them by hand into the id of the exhaust sleeve on the head, then the prototype primary just pushes the gasket down to the base of the the sleeve at the port and flattens it there. After crushing, the id of the gasket is 0.8mm larger than the exhaust port - there is space [0.4-0.5mm or precisely four hairwidths] between the inside perimeter of the the gasket and the exhaust port all the way around. I'll post photos of a successfully crushed gasket at the exhaust port once the prototype is removed from the fitment bike.

 

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What are the group thoughts on header slip joint integrity? I've heard they may leak, but Wade doesn't seem concerned about that possibility. They aren't the easiest things in the world to pull apart, but that may be partly because the two slip joints aren't parallel.

 

Also, the fit of the midpipe into the TBR slipon canister is a little rattley. Would exhaust wrap tighten this up? Does anyone know of an exhaust sealing tape?

 

All the high temp exhaust sealants I've found require 24 hours to cure. We'll be assembling the headers and running them within a couple hours, so no time for slip joint sealant to cure. Anybody have a working solution or a 'why dontcha try' suggestion?

 

 

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As you are only needing the seals to be tight 4 dyno run, can clamps be used on the joins

 

2019-01-25 15.45.15.jpg

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A few wraps of Nashua foil tape around the pipe that is too small would be an effective temporary fix. Not too hard to scrape off with a razor blade later, replace with sealant when timing is better.

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IIRC, the vertical alignment was off on my 4th gen TBR also. 

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Wrap aluminium foil around the loose fitting pipe several times until it is a snug fit into the slip on. It's Ugly but functional!

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5 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

TBR with no springs installed [sorry, should have had the springs on to match up the weights, but a guy can only stand stepping on and off a bathroom scale so many times, and I didn't catch the missing springs until I was putting the TBR to bed]: 8.4 lbs [Is that really only 3.8 kg?]

 

Yes that is correct, my TBR weighed in at 4Kg complete, a massive weight saving over the stock sytem.  Your protype is right there on weight, well done.

 

Re the slip joints, these are supposed to bottom out in the expanded section & a little silicone exhaust paste will seal them I have not had any blow by on mine is 15K miles.

 

Keep up the good work, its nearly there 🙂

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12 hours ago, SEBSPEED said:

IIRC, the vertical alignment was off on my 4th gen TBR also. 

 

3rd gen, too. Buddy had a left exit system on his 1990 and that was a bear to wrassle in to place. I guess it was always a little fussy from build to build with TBR pipes.

 

14 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

thanks for loaning your carb synch suction tool gizmo so I can synch the starter valves!

 

No problem. It's a little annoying getting them sync'd at first, but really not hard at all if you have a good vacuum guage and a little patience. Glad to see the tool put to good use.

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pdf vs jpeg vs scanning utility [vs Predator?] issues. Any patience that can be contributed is appreciated.

 

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FOR SALE - one Power Commander V, Dynojet part #16-005 for 1998-2009 Honda VFR800s. Like new, very little use. Produces dyno charts like this when installed on a 2001 5th gen VFR:

236359576_AttackPC5012619.thumb.jpg.8da8aad74fa9c4a48de7aef8d5ee7306.jpg

 

The short story:

 

Success. 3.62hp increase after simply bolting on the new header with zero tuning. 7.63hp increase after tuning the new header with Power Commander 3 installed.

 

 

The long version including dyno charts:

 

Yesterday's dyno sessions ended up being very productive. At $775, It also cost quite a bit more than expected [See invoice below]. This will result in a $30/per header increase in cost for orders placed from here on out - meaning headers not deposited at this time will cost $790 plus shipping. We will honor original pricing of $760 plus shipping for each header on all orders for which deposits have already been received.

 

The day started early, meeting with Jozef [lead dynamometer technician] in Attack Performance's impressive lobby at their Huntington Beach CA headquarters. The lobby has several of Attack's MotoGP and championship winning motorcycles on display - badass hardware bristling with hardcore race tech.

 

After going over our plan for the day with Jozef, Duc2V4 and I set up our pits, unloaded the bike, and handed it over to the wizard. Jozef took the bike 'behind the curtain', as Attack's shop is off limits to customers. Here's where the first evidence of skimpy photo documentation surfaces - although Jozef snapped a shot of the 5th gen on the dyno with prominent Attack logos in evidence, I neglected to collect even a text of the photo. Massive thanks to VFRD member Hammerdrill for filling in with the much needed photos seen later in this post.

 

The 5th gen test bike started the day with 59877 miles, Power Commander V with zero map, a new K&N air filter, new Denso iridium plugs, PAIR system disabled/removed, ~1000 miles on Mobil 1 oil/filter,  a Two Brother Racing slipon muffler, and OEM Honda 1998/1999 headers installed.

 

The dyno chart at the top of the post is from the first set of dyno runs. After recording these, Jozef brought the bike back out to us - something was definitely wrong. To keep this account of the conversation brief, I'll just recount that Jozef said he'd never seen a bike run this wonkily with a PCV. The erratic readings were the result of electrical interference of unknown origin. Group deduction arrived at the possibility that the problem could be with the speed wire tapped into the Power Commander V, so we disconnected it and Jozef took the bike back into his cave. No dice, Jozef got the same misfiring and erratic results. Back in our sumptuous VIP pit area, troubleshooting arrived at disconnecting the PCV, so we did.

 

After disconnecting the PCV,  the bike ran well and these baseline runs were the result:

1270925646_Attackbaseline012619.thumb.jpg.1ff02f8ed33a4339a6743624d8ead955.jpg

 

 

Having acquired a successful baseline and simultaneously possessing a fuel management system that consistently sent the test bike into a tizzy, it was vital to best martial our remaining time. This meant I would drive back to Vista and pick up the PCIIIUSB which had been strategically left at home, 70 miles away from Attack Performance. Can't blame the PCIIIUSB, it would have loved to have been on the first trip to Huntington Beach. Not even the PCV can be blamed...I had singlehandedly done all the forgetting. While I was gone from Attack, Duc2V4 would change out the 98/99 headers for the prototype, Hammerdrill would take photos, and Jozef would continue building engines for Attack, then take a long lunch.

 

Duc2V4 did a stellar job getting the 98/99 headers off and the prototype  header installed.

[All photos courtesy of VFRD member Hammerdrill - thanks dude!]

 

Special tools were required to disconnect the rear primaries:

1721322067_oldheaderencouragement.thumb.jpg.3c53893d92982158d6dddd5af366e2d7.jpg

 

Who left these rings under my pillow?

900381266_crushgasket.thumb.jpg.9254dc3358140cf7d01e72d341da3e02.jpg

 

And here's how he stuck 'em into the exhaust port sleeves:

1028643586_crushgasketinstallation.thumb.jpg.0dc633e75f8bf6f6332d6c41aee300c1.jpg

 

This is one of the 42mm crush gaskets after being crushed by the prototype header. Note the space between the gasket's id and the port. [This is the photo I forgot to take on fitment day]:

1778052029_42mmaftercrushing.thumb.JPG.7c0ff9e1f718bf5aa47b20d6e9e3fea9.JPG

 

 

Gaskets in place. Look ma, no grease! They stay in place on their own:

1130150094_crushgasketinstalled.thumb.jpg.216c7335ea7d57bcdb7a682f0912350d.jpg

 

Prototype headers connected to a midpipe Wade built to fit the TBR canister.

379044921_midpipeandprimaries.thumb.jpg.74413b4f3a06da074ae1b95071bd7fb5.jpg

 

Duc2V4 found a way to make a too-large T-bolt clamp fit onto the midpipe - note the spacer on the threads under the clamp's nut. Also note how frickin close the prototype came to the shock linkage. This would have been of concern if the bike wasn't on a rear stand when this photo was taken - the rear wheel was hanging at its maximum extension and still cleared the collector:

1580283240_clampandlinkage.thumb.jpg.c2dd980a7861013017d1b1eb54544449.jpg

 

The incredibly hard-working pit crew:

1532320408_pitcrew.thumb.JPG.3c45682a9ba0d507132446b584d046dd.JPG

 

 

 

After 'lunch', with PC3 and new prototype header installed [Connected to the same TBR canister used for the baseline] Jozef got down to business and completed an exhaustive [ouch again!] tune, resulting in the comparative graph below.

 

The bottom trace Run File 10 is the baseline 107.5hp / 57.01ft/lbs

The middle trace Run File 14 is the 'just slapped the headers on' with no tuning whatsoever 110.86hp / 57.82ft/lbs

The top trace Run File 77 is the result of Jozef's careful tuning 114.74hp / 59.82ft/lbs

1620439370_Attackpeakhp1012619.thumb.jpg.51891047215bb16e05606c66bfbd8b24.jpg137178045_Attackpeakhp2012619.thumb.jpg.13c1a70e5d2693850071826d55762719.jpg

 

 

After the dust had settled, Jozef placed a midrange reference line at 8000rpm:

1269798220_Attackmidrangecomparison1012619.thumb.jpg.d9a7af5620ee8ed849ca46ea206d50d6.jpg625290698_Attackmidrangecomparison2012619.thumb.jpg.c8df4d823e9e86f49372442cf601b558.jpg

 

 

And the ugly:

2068774578_Attackinvoice012619.thumb.jpg.452482613ad77b9a8873d5667f65397e.jpg

 

 

 

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Kudos for the effort men... Wow to the PCV dyno chart... yikes

 

A question for clarity's sake - was the PC3 connected for Run File 14 or no? 

 

 

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2 hours ago, SEBSPEED said:

Kudos for the effort men... Wow to the PCV dyno chart... yikes

 

A question for clarity's sake - was the PC3 connected for Run File 14 or no? 

 

 

 

The PC3 was installed before the session during which runfile 14 was produced. Before that session, Jozef went in and zeroed the PC3’s map so it made no changes to stock ECU settings or actions. Part of his protocol is to get a reading on changes a modification makes by itself, with no tuning whatsoever. To be certain there are no contrary actions lurking in the PC3, he creates the zero map himself by entering zero values across the entire table (there is a command to enter all zero values - he didn’t have to enter them one cell at a time).

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Thank you so much for posting the dyno graphs with the target AFRs, that helps me out for autotune.  Looks like Attack Perf is running slightly richer than what I've set my Autotune target AFRs at.  I'd be interested to see the full fuelling map, though it doesn't really apply to me (I'm running a 3 bar FPR).  I don't suppose they gave you a full map of AFR targets...

 

On that PCV graph, now I see what other people are talking about with surging on the PCV.  I wonder WTF is going on between 2000/01 ECUs and the PCV.  I've had no such difficulties with my 98.

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Top work gents

Do you have before and after pc3 maps to compare what changes were made?

 

Cheers 

 

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4 hours ago, MadScientist said:

Thank you so much for posting the dyno graphs with the target AFRs, that helps me out for autotune. 

 

I did a lot of research on this and opinions abound. But fundamentally, 13.1 is often considered optimal for power, regardless of RPM. Those charts are right there, between 12.9 and 13.2.

 

I'm not sure the default VFR tuning, but ideal AFR for mileage and emissions are well over 14 (a lot of modern cars default to 14.7:1) so I'm surprised those VFR  base readings are  lower than 13.1 to start with.  I find that interesting.

 

Anyway, I'm just setting my rapidbike to 13.2, which is the My Tuning Bike default, for my max power map and not worrying about it beyond that. Works now, power delivery is super smooth at all throttle. So I'll do the same with the new header. I assume Autotune is similar, just adjusting the map in real time depending on a wideband sensor.

 

Looks promising all around. 5% increase may not sound like much, but it will be noticeable. Especially the extra bit in the midrange. I'm fat and ride on the street, so a couple more foot lbs of torque between 5 and 9K is nice to have.  Mostly it'll be nice to have a quality, well made header that is better, as opposed to the same or worse like the Chinese ones of questionable qualities.

 

 

 

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MadSci and boOZZIE - We ran out of daylight, time, and closed the Attack facility down on Saturday night, last car in the parking lot was us, packing up the pit and loading the bike, so I didn't get the files from Jozef then. He said he'd email them, and I'll be going back up there later this week, so I'll take some photos of the Attack bikes and get the fuel maps on a thumb drive if he hasn't emailed them by then. I did not ask him to save the original PC3 map, but hope he did - I'm as curious as you are about the difference in mapping. The original map was from a dyno tune back in 2006 done by the previous owner of the bike. At that time it had a California ECU, Staintune slipon, and OEM air filter which all combined to achieve 99rwhp on the dyno. In other words, the original map is probably going to be quite an apple compared to this recent orange.

 

MooseMoose, I agree with your observations; the AFRs are just a touch on the rich side, which is a fairly safe place to be. I suspect that the AFRs on the baseline runs stayed rich for two reasons: [1] during the baseline runs, the bike was never run in steady state throttle long enough for the ECU to go into closed loop fueling, which is where it would start paying attention to the O2 sensors and leaning the mixture to optimize efficiency, and [2] the O2 sensor leads from the ECU are terminated with Dynojet O2 Optimizers, which tell the ECU everything is hunky dory with the AFR, so even if it tried to go into closed loop fueling, it wouldn't perceive an opportunity to lean the mixture. And you are right about the end result being better rideability - most of us spend 90% of our fun riding time in the midrange rpms, and that is where throttle response is all different with the TBR. I was a skeptic about headers until I rode RVFR's 5th gen. When we traded bikes for 20 or so miles of twisties, his 5th gen was set up exactly as mine was except for the headers: both bikes had PC3, stock engine, and Staintune high mount slipons. He had installed a TBR header and the package had been tuned by an extremely good dyno tech. My mind was forever warped.

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MadSci and boOZZIE - I was a skeptic about headers until I rode RVFR's 5th gen. When we traded bikes for 20 or so miles of twisties, his 5th gen was set up exactly as mine was except for the headers: both bikes had PC3, stock engine, and Staintune high mount slipons. He had installed a TBR header and the package had been tuned by an extremely good dyno tech. My mind was forever warped.


I’m hoping this is where we are heading, meaning these headers + this tune will amount to a proven recipe... and I’ll take a heathy midrange over peak #s any day of the week.




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"Jozef took the bike 'behind the curtain', as Attack's shop is off limits to customers" . 

 Booooo, I could understand recording equipment, but gee whiz, paying that sort of $$$ and not letting you'll watch🖓

Were you able to hear her scream at least

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3 hours ago, boOZZIE said:

"Jozef took the bike 'behind the curtain', as Attack's shop is off limits to customers" . 

 Booooo, I could understand recording equipment, but gee whiz, paying that sort of $$$ and not letting you'll watch🖓

Were you able to hear her scream at least

 

Yeah! A bit disappointing, but we could hear it howling on the other side of the concrete wall we were pitted against. We could hear him really putting it through its paces.

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4 hours ago, ScottieDucati said:

I’m hoping this is where we are heading, meaning these headers + this tune will amount to a proven recipe... and I’ll take a heathy midrange over peak #s any day of the week. 

 

You are spot on, Scottie: we are cooking up a recipe with results that can be duplicated by other VFR owners.

 

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5 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

 Dynojet O2 Optimizers, which tell the ECU everything is hunky dory with the AFR, so even if it tried to go into closed loop fueling, it wouldn't perceive an opportunity to lean the mixture.

 

 

Actually I understood this as everything is NOT hunky dory, so it makes the mixture rich because that's the safest default mode to be in. The resistors in there only tell the ECU that the heater coil on the sensor is active and up to temp (the resistance changes as the temperature rises so that resistor emulates the hot-coil resistance Honda expects to see)  so it won't throw a code for lack of sensors or bad sensors, but the data comes on the other wires, not the heater wire. If it isn't getting data it goes into a default rich fueling as going lean without data is dangerous, risking high cylinder head temps and possible detonation, thus the default rich mode. Anyway, with o2 eliminators in you will NEVER go into close loop fueling, no matter how you  run the bike, steady or up and down the throttle. It'll stay in the default rich fuel map forever.

 

That works for a PC though, because it provides a steady baseline to correct from. Don't know why my brain didn't realize it was a PC on zero map, not the proper Honda ECU mapping you started with. They are NOT the same, by the way.

 

4 hours ago, ScottieDucati said:

 

I’m hoping this is where we are heading, meaning these headers + this tune will amount to a proven recipe... and I’ll take a heathy midrange over peak #s any day of the week.
 

 

 

It'll be a good starting point, but don't count on it to be the best recipe for every bike. They're all snowflakes, especially at this age. Valves, injectors, throttle body will all have wear and work differently from bike to bike. Vacuum leaks (I had that one recently). Hell, stuff I am not thinking of could matter, but it all adds up. This exercise proves that, with a good tune, you get a few extra ponies over the default map, and that with the headers you get a little more grunt across the range. But to get the last pound of torque you'll still need to get your bike done, or get something with auto adaptivity.

 

One thing extra good reading those charts, though, is that you don't have to trade peak for midrange. The TBR headers were only lower at the lowest end of the range in older dyno charts I'd seen, and this one shows them with a pretty steady 5% more hp everywhere above 5K, and a couple of lb/ft across the board. I don't know why they didn't start measuring until almost 5000 rpm, though. That makes sense for a track bike, but it certainly doesn't show the whole picture. Especially for a "new" design of header.  But that's totally moot. These charts are good and it'll shows these do a good job all around.

 

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So what Moosemoose said about O2 eliminators is correct, with them in ECU reverts to stored rich map (similar to what the 98/99 uses all the time !).

PC3 ZERO map means that NO correction to base ECU injector signal, so the same as running without the PC3 fitted.

 

Regarding a fuel map & why people never generally see the same result with a downloaded map, you need to read this http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors_tuning_massachusetts.html

 

Makes a lot of sense !

 

Remember YMMV.

 

Have fun.

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Regarding a fuel map & why people never generally see the same result with a downloaded map, you need to read this http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors_tuning_massachusetts.html
 
Makes a lot of sense !


Rob’s a good dude and my local source. He loves having me wee four on the dyno


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On 1/28/2019 at 7:22 PM, sfdownhill said:

 

The dyno chart at the top of the post is from the first set of dyno runs. After recording these, Jozef brought the bike back out to us - something was definitely wrong. To keep this account of the conversation brief, I'll just recount that Jozef said he'd never seen a bike run this wonkily with a PCV. The erratic readings were the result of electrical interference of unknown origin. Group deduction arrived at the possibility that the problem could be with the speed wire tapped into the Power Commander V, so we disconnected it and Jozef took the bike back into his cave. No dice, Jozef got the same misfiring and erratic results. Back in our sumptuous VIP pit area, troubleshooting arrived at disconnecting the PCV, so we did.

 

I know there is sufficient interference in the electrical system on my Y2K bike to make cheap LED dashboards lights flash/flicker randomly and independantly. The flashing pattern changes with RPM.

The standard dash bulbs to not flicker.

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MooseMoose and Mohawk - thanks for explaining further how the 2000-2001 5th gen ECU reads the O2 sensors. I did not have a clear understanding of it, or how the O2 Optimizers functioned. Always learning. It makes sense that the baseline runs were rich even with no fuel

management system installed: the O2 Optimizers were still installed because the 98/99 headers have no bungs. Thus the ECU defaulted to its rich map.

 

Zarquon, the interference issues when using a PCV on a 5th gen do seem to be limited to the 5.2 gens (2000-2001). MadScientist has a PCV rocking his 98.

 

Here’s the bike ready for action on the dyno. We were all surprised the coolant temp stayed between 170-180F throughout all the sessions. Even Jozef was expecting to see high temps with the side mounted radiators during power runs.

E78B4D38-AC97-45D3-AB84-88CD5B42E962.thumb.jpeg.567695e6eec37558823474b99935c76e.jpeg

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