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sfdownhill last won the day on February 11

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About sfdownhill

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  • Birthday 04/14/1964

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  • Location
    Vista CA
  • In My Garage:
    2001 VFR
    2003 CRF450R

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  1. Thanks Phil - that looks like a good place for an O2 sensor.
  2. Thanks JZH - not putting it there gives us a lot of leeway. That Erion is a good-looking assembly - is that your 2000?
  3. Michael - I don't understand why you'd post this on the thread, as we have been corresponding successfully via PM. Your post here covers the same topic as the PM you sent yesterday. I responded yesterday that I'd been home since 9am, the mail hadn't arrived yet, and I have not received a notice from a carrier that a delivery attempt had been made. Later in the day yesterday I PM'd you with an update that the US Postal mail had been delivered and did not include an envelope or parcel from you. PM is the appropriate medium for our transaction.
  4. Good question, MBrane. Yes, over the next few days, I will PM everyone who has placed a deposit to ask those questions and request a destination shipping address so we can start preparing to ship finished headers. (Like you, I can’t help but snicker while trying to remain serious about anything bung-related)
  5. So true sir - getting back to Brian’s ‘Greatest Hits’ road selection with the gang must happen again.
  6. Hey MadSci - yes the cost of passivation is extra above and beyond the cost of the header. We are having the prototypes passivated on behalf of their future owners - VFRD member Hammerdrill and some lucky individual who would like to own prototype 2 at a discount. We did discuss bung placement with Wade, and arrived at offering purchasers their choice of one of three options included in the price of the header: (1) no O2 sensor bungs at all (good for Power Commander owners that are not using autotune) (2) two O2 sensor bungs in OEM positions (3) one O2 sensor bung in the collector for users of autotune who run a single sensor. MadSci, my sense of Wade’s approach to things is that he’d do a third sensor bung for an additional cost. I will pin down what that cost would be and report back. Request - I would appreciate feedback from those 5/6 gen owners who use a single sensor in the collector: where and at what angle is it located? The photos below feature the standard 1/2” tall M18 bung that will be installed unless the ‘no bungs’ option is selected. The OEM bung locations and sensor size are also shown. DO NOT neglect to liberally coat sensor AND bung threads with anti-seize every time you install a sensor or a plug! At the end of the dyno day, I hand-threaded mild steel plugs into the bungs of prototype1, and 5 days later they had galled so solidly that I had to soak them in penetrating oil overnight and use an impact wrench to get them out. Close enough to M18 for government work: Positions everyone! (As in ‘here are the OEM bung positions’) Get yer frickin bird away from my pipes! Can’t you see that we are working on a header project here? No, I really, truly don’t care if he likes carbon fiber.
  7. Announcements: [These are restatements from earlier posts regarding cost and scheduling] [1] As stated on the Jan 28 post to this thread, headers with deposits received after Jan 28 cost $790 plus shipping [plus 7.75% sales tax for California residents]. [2] The deadline for receiving deposits to add orders to the first production run of 5th/6th gen headers is 4pm Pacific Time Monday February 18. This date/time was moved closer because it is Wade's last opportunity to call his tubing bender vendor and have more sets of tubing bent. The next production run of 5th/6th gen headers will probably be ready to ship 4 months from now. Please send your deposit via paypal to the paypal account of vfrheaders@gmail.com. In the paypal note section enter your VFRD or VFRW username and state '5th/6th gen'. Send your deposit as friends and family to avoid paypal charges, then send me a PM to let us know you've sent a deposit. I will respond with a confirmation that the deposit has been received. [3] We are now accepting deposits on headers for 8th gen VFR800s. Shipping of finished 8th gen headers is estimated to be 10 weeks from now. This timeframe represents 4 weeks to complete the production run of 5/6th gen headers, 2 weeks for prototyping 8th gen headers, and 4 weeks for production of 8th gen headers. Please send your deposit via paypal to the paypal account of vfrheaders@gmail.com. In the paypal note section enter your VFRD or VFRW username and state '8th gen'. Send your deposit as friends and family to avoid paypal charges, then send me a PM to let us know you've sent a deposit. I will respond with a confirmation that the deposit has been received.
  8. Hi Phil - yes we are now accepting deposits on 8th gen headers. Welcome aboard! The estimated shipping date for 8th gen headers is 10 weeks from now [That's 4 weeks for completing 5/6th gen production, 2 weeks for prototyping 8th gens, and 4 weeks for the 8th gen production run. Yes, the procedure for placing a deposit on 8th gen headers is the same. Please include "8th gen" along with your username in the notes section of the Paypal transfer.
  9. Center stand findings: Here is CornerCarver's original TBR header with strategically placed measuring tape to show the size of the gap between collector exit and cylinder #1 primary: Here is the right leg of a 5th gen center stand: TBR headers and replicas of them have a space between their collector exit pipe and the #1 primary that is too small for the headers to be installed over the VFR's center stand while the center stand is still installed. Once the headers are installed, the center stand fits and functions normally. Deconstructing the #1 primary and rebuilding the jig carries the risk of decreasing the header's performance because the primaries' shape and length are a critical components of a header's function. Making these changes would also incur a considerable expense. The production replicas will have the same spacing and interaction between their tubing and center stand that the original TBR has. Here is how we've successfully installed these headers [And sometimes OEM 98/99 headers] with center stands: [1] Put the bike [With headers removed] on a sturdy rear stand. [2] Remove the center stand. Keep the stand's left and right side spacers, washers, and bolts in their correct stacking order and located on their respective sides of the bike. [3] Place the right leg of the center stand through the loop made by the headers' rear primaries and collector exit pipe. [4] Leave the headers hanging around the stand and move the loosely connected headers and stand into position under the bike. [5] Bolt the stand into place. [6] Install the headers. [7] Connect the center stand's springs. A method we discourage requires bending the header collector exit pipe's trailing edge inward enough to allow the center stand's right leg to pass between the exit pipe and the #1 primary. After placing the bent section of the exit pipe over the still-installed stand, install the headers, then straighten the exit pipe's trailing edge. This method risks permanently deforming the collector exit pipe. On to passivating, which as discussed earlier in this thread, is dipping in acid to remove ferrous welding contaminants. The process also etches, which removes heat damage to the surface layer. Here is prototype 1 after passivating:
  10. First of all, the good stuff: We are 4 weeks from shipping finished product. We thought finished units would be trickling out 3-5 at a time, but Wade's process is pure undiluted assembly line philosophy: he does the first phase prep and assembly for all the headers, then the second phase prep and assembly to all the units, etc until they are all done on about the same day. ***Please take note: If you have not sent a deposit, but want in on the first production run of 5th gen/6th gen headers, send a $200 deposit with your vfrd or vfrw username in the note section to the vfrheaders@gmail.com paypal account and PM us [in that order]. Do it post haste [real fast, right away]. Wade will be happy to make more than 15 headers in this first production run, but he has purchased materials and is having tubes bent for deposited orders only. I've gotten him to accept additional orders until 4pm pacific this Monday February 18 [Edited]. The second production run is going to be 8th gen headers. It will be 4 months until another run of 5th gen/6th gen headers is ready to ship. Second, the so-so stuff: I had a misconception that Wade would be shipping the headers from his location, but have learned that his price is FOB. We will have to pick up all the headers in the first production run, bring them home, box and ship. Crap. It was sounding so nice to just email him paid shipping tags and know the pipes were on their way to their eager new homes. Duc2V4 has volunteered to take on management of the shipping exercise - praises be! If I was going to have a first-born child, I'd definitely name him [or her] Duc2V4. Thanks Stray flya750 - check out the post after this one to see whassup with closed-captioning for center stands. I met with Wade Tuesday and yesterday. The second trip [yesterday] was entirely my fault - I hadn't gotten the picture on what his game plan was to reset the collector exit angle/position, and I didn't bring the prototypes with me Tuesday. Recall that the miscue on the prototype was that the jig was built from the TBR headers stem to stern - no adjustment was made to obtain OEM exit position/angle. Here's Wade's simple four-step plan to reset the collector exit position/angle to OEM: Step 1 - cut the offending collector exits off of both prototypes Step 2 - install OEM 5th gen muffler and trimmed prototype 1 sans collector exit on 5th gen fitment bike Step 3 - fabricate a collector exit pipe that joins the prototype header to the OEM muffler with smoooooth flowing bends [Rinse and repeat with Staintune slipon and prototype 2 - total of four fitment exercises] Step 4 - cut apart the collector exit portion of the header jig and rebuild it to fit the prototypes with their shiny new, fully armed and operational OEM-like collector exits. All production headers will have collector exits that are mandrel bent from a single piece of tubing. The segmented collector exit pipe seen in the photos below was welded in sections only for the prototypes. Sebspeed, thanks for suggesting Nashua aluminum tape as material for making a custom donut gasket to fit between OEM-style slipons and larger-than-OEM exit pipes. The aluminum tape worked great, but you have to be sure to get the tape made of actual aluminum sheet with adhesive backing because Nashua makes a bunch of different tapes, many of which are called 'foil' but are not aluminum, just clear flexible plastic-ish sheet with a metallic sheen. Stay away from any tapes advertising flexibility. Ask me how I know this [Thank you Home Depot for making returns so easy]. I think the correct tape is called 'Extreme Weather' but I can't be sure because the roll I bought was the last one of its kind on the shelf, had no wrapper, no barcode, and I couldn't find a price or skew on the shelf that matched its 1.88" width and aluminum sheet construction: It's easy to relate the photos below to the process described above. Note - the OEM muffler's midpipe at 2 3/8" od is the fattest of the fat midpipes [as far as any of us can recall] so it does get pretty dang close to the #1 cylinder primary, but there is a whisker of space there. The Staintune's midpipe uses more standard 2" od tubing and clears the primary with room to spare. For fitment, Wade volunteered my Staintune over the other two aftermarket slipons we had on hand because its canister and midpipe are built in one solid piece and its mounting points are fixed threaded brackets [Not bands looped around the canister] so it provides more precise alignment. I had been stubbornly waiting until some time way in the future to expand the front end of my Staintune's midpipe to fit the new headers, cuz there's no going back [Just ask RVFR]. I know members Tirso, wholepailofwater, and one other I can't locate in my memory were worried about permanently modifying their 5th gen Staintunes...it doesn't hurt a bit, and I'm glad I did it! It is possible to slip a stack of as many as two sheets of paper between the OEM midpipe and the cylinder #1 rear primary: The Staintune's spacious fit:
  11. Update - there’s not a lot to update. Wednesday I dropped off Prototype #1 at the metal finsher’s to be passivated (acid dipped). They’ll do this first set of headers for $110, and batches of 5 headers for $95 each. I’ll post photos of the treated headers later this week. Production headers are underway, but Wade was sick last week and bowed out of our Tuesday meeting. He’s feeling better (racing motocross sidecars in CA this weekend!) and I’m heading to his shop tomorrow. Objectives for this meeting are: (1) refine our approach to collector exit matching OEM angle/position - relates to having had only TBR and OEM 6th gen headers on hand when making the jig for the prototype. The cat on the 6th gen headers didn’t allow an accurate measurement of the OEM exit angle/position, so I’m taking 98/99 headers to Wade to confirm production units match OEM angle/position (98/99 tubing and merges allow measurement & duplication). (2) examine clearance required between the collector exit pipe and the bottom curve of cylinder #1 primary as relates to the header fitting over the diameter of the right side center stand leg during installation. Clearance at this point on Prototype #2 is enough to just squeeze over the right center stand leg, so the center stand doesn’t have to be removed to install or remove the headers. Clearance at this point on Prototype #1 isn’t enough to allow the header to pass around the center stand during installation - we had to remove the center stand, thread it through the headers, then mount the center stand with the headers dangling down at the base of the stand like pants around one’s ankles, then mount the headers. file
  12. sfdownhill

    5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

    A group could gather funding and offer to pay for Jeff to have the stock header/muffler put back on, then run the same bike on the same dyno. With nothing out of pocket, he'd have a hard time saying no.
  13. MadScientist, your expertise goes right to the crux...at the welds inside the primaries of header #2 there are bits of weld material just barely protruding into the gas path around the internal circumference. I tried to reach in with the Dremel extension and hone down the intrusive weld material, but those bits are tough! They laughed at the high speed grinding tip. Yes, something in header #2 disrupted the combination of factors that make the TBR design so effective. boOZZIE, I'm not sure when/if we'll be able to get a mandrel bent production header onto the dyno - we'd certainly like to do so soon. Wade ordered materials and sent his design specs to his bender vendor, so we'll see how quickly completed production headers get shipped out. I'm going to ask him for a timeline when I see him Tuesday. I hope it's not long before we all get to see a dyno baseline and tuning of a production header. This may be something a customer from the list of persons who have placed deposits gets to first, soon after they receive their headers. At this time it appears the next known dyno baseline/tune on this project will be prototype #1 on VFRD member Hammerdrill's 6th gen, as he is purchasing those headers. Hammerdrill is having an exhaust shop open up the cans of his OEM 6th gen mufflers, gut them, install 1.5" perforated exhaust tubes and pack them. He's keeping the OEM muffler carcasses for their aesthestics. When the mufflers are done, he's going to get his 6th gen to Attack as soon as possible. Note: Prototype #2 is available for purchase at this time. Airisom, Mohawk's curiosity about a crossover header that matches the design of the 6th gen OEM headers but employs TBR tubing sizes and merges does get one pondering... Sadly, we are not equipped with time or resources [read: dinero] to pursue further prototypes and testing.
  14. We finished up a second phase of R&D Thursday - dyno testing of the header - prototype #2 - in the photos below at Attack Performance. All this means is that one well researched attempt to improve on header #1 only proved #1 to be better. Production continues w header #1 the original TBR replica as scheduled. I am driving out to Wade’s shop Tuesday to go over proper alignment of the collector exit, taking along 98/99 headers, TBR headers, a center stand, and maybe the fitment bike. Here is header #2: Based on (1) exhaust theory of keeping gas velocity high through the port by maintaining a slightly smaller diameter in the first few inches of the primaries, (2) Wade’s success with this concept on his dwarf car and Razr headers (3) Black Widow and Lextek’s use of this concept, we had Wade build a second prototype with smaller 35mm od for the first 3.5 inches starting at the exhaust port. The results are clear - header #1 we tested on Saturday Jan 26 is definitely better. This chart shows header #2 down a couple hp and ft/lbs across the entire range, especially in midrange Note: Dynojet dynos/software correct temperature, humidity, and altitude to a standard density altitude. This means the software corrects to a standard the same way aviation performance calculations are made, ie “Can this aircraft generate enough power and lift to take off from this runway at this weight, altitude, temperature, and humidity?” Dynojet’s correction calcs are not perfect, and neither is my spelling, but they are better than nothing. Here is an uncorrected comparison of last Saturday’s run of header #1 against Thursday’s run of header #2:
  15. sfdownhill

    5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

    Way to go with follow through Stray - it's a tough line to toe between getting someone to put their bike on a dyno and 'over-encouraging' them into retirement from the project. Do the 'with baffle' and 'without baffle' dyno graphs refer to with or without the quiet insert that can be installed in the canister/muffler's exit?

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