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sfdownhill

New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

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10 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

 

Hi Seb! You bring up a very good point. I have not asked Wade what finishing treatment, if any, he applies to his exhaust products. I had assumed the headers would be finished as the 3 cylinder headers shown in the OP images. I'll follow up with him. Should we specify the chemical cleaning followed by satin brush/polish you describe if he does not intend to clean or brush the headers?

 

I did ask him about ceramic coating the headers, and he strongly recommend not ceramic coating them, because the high heat retained by the coating beings a degradation process on the stainless steel He pointed out that the TBR headers show signs of having been run lean enough long enough to begin very slight damage. The surface of the headers have a light surface roughness and coloration because of being subjected to higher than optimum heat.

 

On a separate topic, I could use a little guidance on VFRD etiquette; would it be more appropriate to post multiple answers to multiple posts in a single post, with answers to questions/information from multiple individuals? Or is it better to continue responding with a separate post to  answer each question? Thanks!

 

I agree on not coating or wrapping stainless headers. Satin brush/polish would surely raise the price if it's not already included. It looks nice, but not sure what it's worth to Wade vs what premium folks here might pay for that. 

 

More important than looks however, is restoring the anti-corrosion properties at the weld joints. The high heat from welding removes the chromium oxide layer which is the element that prevents rust in/on SS. Mechanical cleaning (grinding/wire brushing/scotchbrite brushing) can accomplish this as the material will auto-passivate, but this only helps the outside of the joint. Dipping in a citric or nitric/hydroflouric acid bath would clean inside & out. Citric won't etch the material & will preserve the raw finished look while nitric/HF will etch and create a uniform silver (clean) look. 

 

That may be information overload there... and not hugely essential for production... but it would be nice. 

 

RE: your separate topic... do whatever's easiest for you... and thanks for the efforts so far!

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Seb, would nitric/HF be the preferred option? 

 

Sfdownhill, yep the choice of response is upto you, whatever is easiest. 

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4 hours ago, boOZZIE said:

Seb, would nitric/HF be the preferred option? 

 

Sfdownhill, yep the choice of response is upto you, whatever is easiest. 

 

Nitric/HF dip (full immersion) would be the best option for "ultimate" corrosion resistance with a bare/bright metal finish on this unsealed tubular construction.  

 

Whether it is the best option for this run of headers remains to be seen. It could add a lot of cost if the parts have to be shipped in bulk to a chem processing facility and back again for distribution.

 

In reality it may not be overly important, as Honda themselves don't even do this - you can see the weld joints are the first place our headers usually start to rot. I was really just curious if there was a finishing process planned for them, and I went and complicated things from there. lol

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😀No no I think it's a valid point, as I see it, most of us that are in this consider the/our vfr (s) as keepers and would not  want to be going thru this process again in the years ahead.

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4 hours ago, SEBSPEED said:

 

Nitric/HF dip (full immersion) would be the best option for "ultimate" corrosion resistance with a bare/bright metal finish on this unsealed tubular construction.  

 

Whether it is the best option for this run of headers remains to be seen. It could add a lot of cost if the parts have to be shipped in bulk to a chem processing facility and back again for distribution.

 

In reality it may not be overly important, as Honda themselves don't even do this - you can see the weld joints are the first place our headers usually start to rot. I was really just curious if there was a finishing process planned for them, and I went and complicated things from there. lol

1% HF and 12% HNO3 by weight could be painted on the welds...dipping the whole thing may not be necessary...

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6 minutes ago, zupatun said:

1% HF and 12% HNO3 by weight could be painted on the welds...dipping the whole thing may not be necessary...

 

Right. It's only needed if one wants to treat the back side/inside as well. 

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9 minutes ago, SEBSPEED said:

 

Right. It's only needed if one wants to treat the back side/inside as well. 

 

It can't hurt to ask if an HF/HNO3 dip is included with the basic spa treatment - we'll checkum it out. My guess is treatment and brushing or other finishing is not included at the price the header is offered. If not, it is likely that Wade knows of, or one of us can find a qualified facility to treat individual headers if so desired.

 

Seb, in your experience, what might one expect to pay for dipping a set of headers in nitric/HL?

 

And here is an oversight we're now addressing - a center stand stop on the header is needed for 6th gen owners who will be using their own slipons and not a full system from our fabricator. Note - we are still waiting on a price quote from him for a 6th gen upgrade to full system. He has been provided  with photos of the OEM 6th gen muffler assembly for purposes of pricing a full 6th gen system. If / when a 6th gen full system is quoted, it will include a center stand stop on the midpipe. The quoted price for the new header does not include a center stand stop because we asked Wade to price a replica of the TBR with the specs listed in the OP. Neither the TBR nor our additional specs have a center stand stop, so the price quote does not include a center stand stop. I have sent a request asking what it would cost - per header - to add a small bracket to the production header that would hold a center stand stop in the OEM 6th gen stop position. Last week we delivered a set of OEM 6th gen headers to Wade's shop, so he does have an example of a 6th gen's center stand stop placement. Updates will be provided.

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Unfortunately, my experience was on the processing end, so I'm of no help with pricing references. All I can really add is that it will likely be more cost efficient to process a batch of headers at a chem processing facility vs doing one or two. 

 

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There are a couple guys on the list of individuals who placed deposits that haven't yet placed their deposits. At end of day Friday January 11, we will update the A list to accurately represent deposits actually received so get 'em in.

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12 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

There are a couple guys on the list of individuals who placed deposits that haven't yet placed their deposits. At end of day Friday January 11, we will update the A list to accurately represent deposits actually received so get 'em in.

 

I didn't see details in the OP... how do I "get it in"?

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Hi Seb - I apologize; I should have reponded to your PM w how and where to place deposits. I will do so now. 

 

On another note - CornerCarver has order 5 headers, 2 of which (could be 3 - I have to check) are 8th gens. Are either the 5/6th or 8th headers you are ordering  intended  for him? Thought I’d pipe up to avoid a potential doubling of your intended order.

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1 hour ago, sfdownhill said:

Hi Seb - I apologize; I should have reponded to your PM w how and where to place deposits. I will do so now. 

 

On another note - CornerCarver has order 5 headers, 2 of which (could be 3 - I have to check) are 8th gens. Are either the 5/6th or 8th headers you are ordering  intended  for him? Thought I’d pipe up to avoid a potential doubling of your intended order.

 

Thanks, got it. 

 

And no - the headers I have requested are for my own projects. Our (CC & me) orders will be separate but there is potential for crossover with shipping. I'll explain in PM. 

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Can Nick Gamuranes please PM me or post here and let me know what your username is so I can accurately associate your deposit with your person? Thanks

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This is nick checking in.

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There are a few updates, but first for the important stuff...pipe porn sent today!

 

1057715103_Replica1.thumb.JPG.ef05b6a264cf904911ec0347e449b343.JPG

 

345718697_Replica2.thumb.jpeg.6a223ac2f7dc5042544624530c77d361.jpeg

 

 

The GSXR750 crush gaskets arrived yesterday, and I had a chance to measure and install/crush them today.

2024418500_GSXR750gaskets1.thumb.jpg.d1f3da4a784c3f7aec8816f51afe90ff.jpg

1673286340_GSXR750gaskets3.thumb.JPG.747ab1fda9fa609c80f9f36393384ffa.JPG1440607522_GSXR750gaskets4.thumb.JPG.d664ef331c6458b1fbfb9f91f9faf5d3.JPG

 

I couldn't get the gaskets to fit into the exhaust mounting sleeve in the head, even after judiciously Dremeling at opposite sides to get them past the header stud bosses, then putting a little chamfer on one edge, hoping it would start into the sleeve - no joy.

 

Mohawk - do you recall how you got these crush gaskets to fit into the sleeve? Perhaps some very careful high speed grinding of their edges?

836721983_GSXR750gaskets5.thumb.JPG.78a2fed228e5a56e98037d0fc4482b1d.JPG

 

I was going to try using the force of torquing the header flange nuts to squeeze the gaskets into place before crushing them, but I coudn't get a nut started onto the threads.

820090036_GSXR750gaskets6.thumb.JPG.2deddcbb6325b55580e9b20cf6a89540.JPG

 

 

 

Next topic - earlier in this thread, Sebspeed, boOZZIE, and zupatun discussed passivation - chemical treatment of newly welded stainless steel exhausts.  After passivation, the chromium oxide surface layer that inhibits corrosion of stainless reforms when exposed to air...YAY! Finally a component of this project that is FREE! I called a local metal finishing firm and spoke with their estimator George, who was very helpful. They use a citric acid dip to passivate metal structures. The citric acid process they use exceeds milspec, and they use it for medical stainless steel structures and many other products. I asked George if they use citric acid because it's illegal to use nitric acid/hyrofluoric acid in California, and he said no, it's not a state or regulatory issue. They get best results from it, exceeding specification and certification requirements. George said that the size of our header assembly requires a double-dip [His term, not mine, but it does make a chemical bath sound like more fun].  So treating a single header assembly would cost $110. They would consider a lower per-unit cost if greater quantities were processed, and would quote 'batch pricing' after passivating the first header.

 

 

 

I spoke with Wade today, and we covered several checklist items:

 

1 - He doesn't do polishing or finishing of his products, nor does he send his products out to be passivated.

 

2 - He will make a midpipe to fit the new headers to an existing slipon for $50. I neglected to ask if he'd need the slipon to be shipped to him, but I'll ask him next time we talk. We are having a full system made for the 5th gen that will be used for dyno testing, and Wade will make a $50 midpipe to fit from the 98/99 headers currently on the bike to the muffler he will build, so we can do the baseline run with the same muffler that will be used for the tune.

 

3 - on the topic of coloring stainless exhaust systems black or other colors, like ceramic coating [As mentioned in an earlier post, ceramic coating retains too much heat which damages stainless steel], he is not familiar with any coloring processes that work with stainless steel exhausts. He recommended calling CeraKote - the big dog in the manufacturing of ceramic coating products.

 

4 - Regarding adding four M18 O2 sensor bungs - one in each primary - to allow each cylinder to be tuned independently; in his opinion, the intrusion of four bungs into the primaries' gas flow path would hurt performance more than it would help improve a dyno or auto tune.

 

5 - The connection of header collector to midpipe in full systems and on midpipes he builds will be by clamp. He has a supplier of T-bolt clamps that he describes as 'bitchin'

[I'm not sure if this means the T-bolt supplier is a hot woman, or the clamps are of high quality]

 

6 - For 6th geners who will be using their existing slipons: Wade compared the location of the center stand stop [CSS] on OEM 6th gen headers at his shop to the TBR. On the 6th gens, the CSS extends a significant distance out from the back from the catalytic converter. It would have to extend even further back from the TBR, whose collector is further forward than the OEM cat. He doesn't think welding a CSS onto the new headers will be structurally sound. He suggested clamping a CSS onto the midpipes of existing 6th gen slipons [Duc2V4 uses this method for his 6th gen with 98/99 headers and TBR slipons]. Wade thinks there might be a possibility of attaching a CSS to some point on the cush bracket or another structure 'down there' - we will check that possibility when he gets his hands on the fitment bike.

 

 

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Hi Lance, I see where the problem is there. Not sure in the USA, but over here we have two types of exhaust gaskets. The cheap nasty things you have there which are square section metal coated asbestos substitute, or round section copper gaskets, which look like a bulls nose ring, thus the 42mm OD is the outside of a circlular edge. This gasket type is much thinner & will fully deform to fit the port, crushing from an original thickness of 5mm+/- down to 1.5mm & conforming to all irregularities. The ones you have are quite stiff & don't  deform much, plus being square section they have to have a square section port to fit into !  Apologies for not making that clear, but I never use the square ones, I've had leaks with them in the past, so never even consider them ! 😞  The TBR has a very small flange lip compared to other systems, not sure what yours will be like, but worth considering the OD of the flange, has to fit the port obviously.

 

copper-EX-gaskets.thumb.jpg.1a9d8aa2acf2915b623e3698706abeb1.jpg

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46 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

Hi Lance, I see where the problem is there. Not sure in the USA, but over here we have two types of exhaust gaskets. The cheap nasty things you have there which are square section metal coated asbestos substitute, or round section copper gaskets, which look like a bulls nose ring, thus the 42mm OD is the outside of a circlular edge. This gasket type is much thinner & will fully deform to fit the port, crushing from an original thickness of 5mm+/- down to 1.5mm & conforming to all irregularities. The ones you have are quite stiff & don't  deform much, plus being square section they have to have a square section port to fit into !  Apologies for not making that clear, but I never use the square ones, I've had leaks with them in the past, so never even consider them ! 😞  The TBR has a very small flange lip compared to other systems, not sure what yours will be like, but worth considering the OD of the flange, has to fit the port obviously.

 

copper-EX-gaskets.thumb.jpg.1a9d8aa2acf2915b623e3698706abeb1.jpg

 

Thanks for the pointer Mohawk - I will jettison the remaining square section gaskets. The round section type in the photo you posted is the type I'm used to, mostly because that's what the VFR800 and CRF450R use as OEM. Glad I only ordered 3 of the square for testing. Do you recall if you sourced your 42mm round section gaskets from a dealer? I looked up the GSXR750 part number, trotted into the local Suzie dealer [Friendly bunch that are also the nearest Honda dealer], ordered the parts, and square was what came in. Delkevic sells round section 41mm, 43mm,, 44mm, and a few larger sizes, but no 42mm.

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I got mine off ebay, advertised for a whole raft of Suzuki's but its the OD that matters. Measure the ports on your head, 42mm was the largest I could get in mine & the TBR flange is a welded on larger diameter tube.  You can see the differences here between TBR on left in black & Motad on right. I had a the O2 sensor boss welded onto the TBR for wideband sensor use.

 

IMG_0282.JPG

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I bought mine 42mm, from delkevic a couple of years ago. Not listed on the website, so I emailed them to see if available.

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1 hour ago, Mohawk said:

I got mine off ebay, advertised for a whole raft of Suzuki's but its the OD that matters. Measure the ports on your head, 42mm was the largest I could get in mine & the TBR flange is a welded on larger diameter tube.  You can see the differences here between TBR on left in black & Motad on right. I had a the O2 sensor boss welded onto the TBR for wideband sensor use.

 

IMG_0282.JPG

 

Cool - I’ll check out ebay’s raft’o’gaskets. It’s interesting to see you’re running a single O2 sensor on your TBR. Is that the configuration you have your Rapid Bike auto tune sniffing?

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1 minute ago, gig said:

I bought mine 42mm, from delkevic a couple of years ago. Not listed on the website, so I emailed them to see if available.

 

I messaged Delkevic too, but I made the mistake of telling them I had a VFR800 - their response was “use the 41mm gaskets”

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Yes, MyTuningBike (MTB) connected to WideBand sensor. The new MTB support the lastest Bosch 4.9 sensor which is miles better than the older 4.2 that I have. I'll upgrade to one this year as I already have the sensor from when I was manually tuning the O2 before I added the MTB.  The nice thing about the MTB is it corrects on the fly, you don't have to add its corrections to the base map, but you can. I did a trackday last year & was to noisy at 109.5db, so had to put a spud in the can, it passed noise testing fine, I was OK with this as the MTB would adjust the AFR to suit the new pipe configuration !

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Deposits for 2 sets sent, sorry for the delay. 

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35 minutes ago, SEBSPEED said:

Deposits for 2 sets sent, sorry for the delay. 

 

Thanks Seb - PM confirmation sent.

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