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sfdownhill

New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

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3 hours ago, Mohawk said:

Yes, MyTuningBike (MTB) connected to WideBand sensor.

 

I'm doing the same, currently, on a delkevic system. Had a bung welded into the pipe just behind the collector, where the two stock sensors are installed.

 

As an aside, how do I know which sensor I have? I just bought the MTB kit and installed it, but didn't realize they have a newer, better sensor. Not that it matters much, but now I'm interested to know.

 

Whatever, on the new headers I will definitely do something similar. Need an exhaust bung on the midpipe as close to the collector point as possible -- whether wade does that for me or I deal with someone nearby.  it is super nice to have.  Taking the silencer plug out of my can or putting it back in is mindless. It just works.

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5 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

 

I messaged Delkevic too, but I made the mistake of telling them I had a VFR800 - their response was “use the 41mm gaskets”

 

I cut a 43mm with dremel cutting wheel slightly opened and closed ends to get a 42mm or maximum width of exhaust port.

May be an option 

IMG_5938.jpg

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Can a 5th gen be made to run well with the Power Commander V?

 

Duc2V4 and I would like to reemphasize our request for examples of or hearsay about any 5th gens or 5th gen power plants running happily and performing well with a Power Commander V. We will have a Power Commander IIIUSB and a Power Commander V on hand for the dyno testing of the prototype header, but will only use one or the other for all baseline runs and test/tuning. At this time, all our research indicates that the PCV causes problems with basic rideability on  the 5th gen. Though the PCV offers finer tuning across more parameters, it would be counterproductive to waste $125/hr dyno time getting the bike to run right.

 

Thanks for any input.

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As far as the PCV goes - I would say maybe.  From the discussion here, there seems to be some kind of issue with the newer firmware and 5th gens.  I have been running mine with no issues since 2010, I have also never updated the firmware.  I run autotune all the time with a vacuum switch hooked up to turn the autotune off during overrun - I was getting really wonky trim values at low throttle openings until this was performed.  I have tried running with autotune disabled and noticed no ill effects; of course this is just running the stored map built from the autotune data.  If it is of consequence, I have calibrated the internal "gear indicator" and adjusted target AFRs for each gear, throttle position, and RPM.  My O2 sensor is positioned in the 2nd merge collector (all 4 cyl) and I don't run any special offsets for the front vs. rear banks.

 

I've been strongly considering MyTuningBike for the ability to run O2 sensors in each bank, but what I have works fairly well and the cost of entry for MTB is steep. 

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Thanks MS! I love the smell of empirical data in the morning...smells like...victory.

(pardon the Apocalypse Now paraphrasing)

 

Sounds like a possible course of action would be to install the PCV well in advance of the fast-approaching dyno date (Jan 26), road test it with a zero map, then with a map from the Dynojet website, and see how she rolls.

 

We’re still open to additional input, data points, suggestions, or warnings.

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Let.  Me. Know.  when you plan to do dyno stuff with the 8G.

I have my stock,  3 different lengths of mufflers,  a stock and a modded airbox with candyred's  glued-and-sanded-smooth R6 velocity stacks installed,  clean stock,  and <500 mile pipercross filters,  the RapidBike Racing module,  with the "override back to stock for CARB compliance" module on standby along with a bluetooth kit and my own laptop with the rapid bike tuning software on it.  

we could do all sorts of different stages of tune. 

I'd even kick around the idea of whether or not changing the drivetrain gearing picks up measurable power.  could pick up a stock 520,  and +1 520 front to measure up to 9 rear teeth's worth of drive gear adjustment.

I would adore being involved,  but I need a few months of advance time so I can put in leave with the navy to spend the odd 2-4 days wrenching and dyno pulling if I had my way.  

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9 hours ago, MadScientist said:

As far as the PCV goes - I would say maybe.  From the discussion here, there seems to be some kind of issue with the newer firmware and 5th gens.  I have been running mine with no issues since 2010, I have also never updated the firmware.  I run autotune all the time with a vacuum switch hooked up to turn the autotune off during overrun - I was getting really wonky trim values at low throttle openings until this was performed.  I have tried running with autotune disabled and noticed no ill effects; of course this is just running the stored map built from the autotune data.  If it is of consequence, I have calibrated the internal "gear indicator" and adjusted target AFRs for each gear, throttle position, and RPM.  My O2 sensor is positioned in the 2nd merge collector (all 4 cyl) and I don't run any special offsets for the front vs. rear banks.

 

I've been strongly considering MyTuningBike for the ability to run O2 sensors in each bank, but what I have works fairly well and the cost of entry for MTB is steep. 

 

MadScientist, can you please expand on the 5th gen 'internal gear indicator', how to calibrate it, and how a PCV receives this data? I was under the impression that our beloved 5th gens have no means of keeping track of gear selection other than neutral. Love to learn otherwise.

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17 minutes ago, Voided76 said:

Let.  Me. Know.  when you plan to do dyno stuff with the 8G.

I have my stock,  3 different lengths of mufflers,  a stock and a modded airbox with candyred's  glued-and-sanded-smooth R6 velocity stacks installed,  clean stock,  and <500 mile pipercross filters,  the RapidBike Racing module,  with the "override back to stock for CARB compliance" module on standby along with a bluetooth kit and my own laptop with the rapid bike tuning software on it.  

we could do all sorts of different stages of tune. 

I'd even kick around the idea of whether or not changing the drivetrain gearing picks up measurable power.  could pick up a stock 520,  and +1 520 front to measure up to 9 rear teeth's worth of drive gear adjustment.

I would adore being involved,  but I need a few months of advance time so I can put in leave with the navy to spend the odd 2-4 days wrenching and dyno pulling if I had my way.  

 

Yessir Voided76! And it appears you and I are almost neighbors - I'm in north SD county [Let's ride some time - I'll PM]. Your collection of assorted oomph-adding devices for the 8th gen would make an interesting test bed for tuning the new headers to the motorcycle's particular characteristics.

 

At this time, Wade is focused on test fitment of the 5/6th prototype, dyno testing and moving into the first production run of 5/6th headers. It appears that a second run of 8th gen headers could very well be phase 2, but until testing of the 5/6th gen is completed and production underway, it's unwise to forecast timelines. Wade has expressed interest in prototyping the 8th gen for testing, but he is disciplined and his process is to focus on one project at a time, through completion.

 

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13 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

Can a 5th gen be made to run well with the Power Commander V?

 

Duc2V4 and I would like to reemphasize our request for examples of or hearsay about any 5th gens or 5th gen power plants running happily and performing well with a Power Commander V. We will have a Power Commander IIIUSB and a Power Commander V on hand for the dyno testing of the prototype header, but will only use one or the other for all baseline runs and test/tuning. At this time, all our research indicates that the PCV causes problems with basic rideability on  the 5th gen. Though the PCV offers finer tuning across more parameters, it would be counterproductive to waste $125/hr dyno time getting the bike to run right.

 

Thanks for any input.

 

I think the issue was with the later version of the 5th gens: Y2k-'01  At least, that's what I have, and I am one of those who could not get the PCV to work (PCIII USB works fine).  The best way of resolving the issue would be for DynoJet to deal with it using their expert knowledge of the PCV's operations and Honda PGM-Fi systems, but despite others having solicited their help, they don't seem especially interested in solving the problem. 

 

The Power Commander website still lists the same PCV part number for all VFR800s from 1998 to 2009 (i.e., all RC46), and notes that the PCIII USB has been discontinued for these models.  Unfortunately, DJ has form on this: when they discovered problems getting the Power Commander working with the (then new) ST1300, DJ eventually just discontinued their support for that model, rather than solve the problem, so I would expect they will just write off the RC46, which has now been out of production for about ten years...

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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6 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

 

MadScientist, can you please expand on the 5th gen 'internal gear indicator', how to calibrate it, and how a PCV receives this data? I was under the impression that our beloved 5th gens have no means of keeping track of gear selection other than neutral. Love to learn otherwise.

The bike doesn't know what gear it is in, but the PCV has vehicle speed and RPM inputs.  I calibrated the PCV  by entering the speed:rpm ratios for each gear by, you guessed it, riding around with a laptop stuck in a tank bag.  This would be trivial to do with a dyno, however.

 

You can purchase a display from powercommander that interfaces with the PCV and displays vehicle data, including the calculated gear position.  I called it an 'internal gear indicator' because I can't actually see what gear it thinks I'm in, unless I have a laptop hooked up while riding.

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13 hours ago, JZH said:

 

I think the issue was with the later version of the 5th gens: Y2k-'01  At least, that's what I have, and I am one of those who could not get the PCV to work (PCIII USB works fine).  The best way of resolving the issue would be for DynoJet to deal with it using their expert knowledge of the PCV's operations and Honda PGM-Fi systems, but despite others having solicited their help, they don't seem especially interested in solving the problem. 

 

The Power Commander website still lists the same PCV part number for all VFR800s from 1998 to 2009 (i.e., all RC46), and notes that the PCIII USB has been discontinued for these models.  Unfortunately, DJ has form on this: when they discovered problems getting the Power Commander working with the (then new) ST1300, DJ eventually just discontinued their support for that model, rather than solve the problem, so I would expect they will just write off the RC46, which has now been out of production for about ten years...

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

 

Hi JZH - thanks for adding your input. Your experience with 5th gen and PCV is one of the tales that worry us, because you definitely know your way around a VFR, and if you couldn't get it to play nice, it doesn't bode well. We have had the same experience as you when speaking with/emailing Dynojet; "What do you mean it doesn't work correctly? Of course it works correctly. No, we don't have any application notes or data suggesting there may be an interface issue between the OEM ECU and the PCV. Do you have any other questions that I can not help you with at this time?"

 

 

9 hours ago, MadScientist said:

The bike doesn't know what gear it is in, but the PCV has vehicle speed and RPM inputs.  I calibrated the PCV  by entering the speed:rpm ratios for each gear by, you guessed it, riding around with a laptop stuck in a tank bag.  This would be trivial to do with a dyno, however.

 

You can purchase a display from powercommander that interfaces with the PCV and displays vehicle data, including the calculated gear position.  I called it an 'internal gear indicator' because I can't actually see what gear it thinks I'm in, unless I have a laptop hooked up while riding.

 

MS - love the workaround you developed to identify gear selection! I picture you in full kit, laptop strapped to the tank bag on  your 5th gen [Talk about distracted riding], ripping around in one gear at a time then stopping to tell the PCV "And that was second gear," before moving on to third. I'll ping our dyno tech and confirm that he'll be able to perform gear mapping during our session. The PCV should arrive by Tuesday and I'll connect to it and see which version firmware it has. Perhaps we'll get lucky and it will have a version comparable to yours, AND that firmware will be compatible with current Dynojet dyno software.

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On 1/10/2019 at 6:36 PM, MooseMoose said:

 

As an aside, how do I know which sensor I have? I just bought the MTB kit and installed it, but didn't realize they have a newer, better sensor. Not that it matters much, but now I'm interested to know.

Do a search for Bosch LSU 4.2 connector and/or 4.9..  The 4.9 is the latest, it uses a fixed reference circuit for a zero mark, where the 4.2 uses fresh air which it rarely sees in an exhaust. The 4.2 zero can drift over time, where as the 4.9 is electronically fixed, and it has a faster response time, which is better for a bike engine. But the 4.9 did not exist when the first MTB was designed ! 

 

If if you have a recent MTB which is not old stock it should be on the 4.9, as they were introduced about 2 years ago.

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Regarding single point wideband sensor, you don’t need to worry about front rear cylinder trims. The factory ECU map sends different trim values to the injectors already. IIRC the rear cylinders always run a bit richer than the fronts, to compensate for their warmer position and in the airflow.  So if you use a single sensor you are adjusting both banks equally.

 

To explain, let’s say at X rpm & Y throttle position the stock ECU sends front value 50 & rear value 55. Your internal or external (on dyno) AFR probe, decides you should have +5 added for the ideal AFR you have set the system for (13.2/1 for Dynojet, adjustable in RapidBike) , so all the injectors get a +5 signal added to the base ECU value, so the fronts now see 55 & the rears 60 !  So the offset trim values are maintained, regardless of which piggy back system you use. 

 

Hope me that makes sense.

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On 1/10/2019 at 12:55 PM, gig said:

 

I cut a 43mm with dremel cutting wheel slightly opened and closed ends to get a 42mm or maximum width of exhaust port.

May be an option 

IMG_5938.jpg

 

Gig, I like your approach - did a couple circumference calcs and it makes sense. When you say you slightly opened and closed the ends, did that allow you to insert one end into the other, thereby eliminating any gap and possible leak point?

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8 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

 

Gig, I like your approach - did a couple circumference calcs and it makes sense. When you say you slightly opened and closed the ends, did that allow you to insert one end into the other, thereby eliminating any gap and possible leak point?

 

Correct 

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19 hours ago, Mohawk said:

 

If if you have a recent MTB which is not old stock it should be on the 4.9, as they were introduced about 2 years ago.

 

I'll search for it. I got mine a couple of years ago so I'm on the cusp. Now I wonder.  Thanks for the info.

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Unfortunately the electronic support circuits for each version are NOT compatible, so if you have a 4.2 version you have to buy a complete new MTB to get the 4.9 version !

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Yeah, seems that's the case. I think I have 4.9, but I'm going to look just because I want to know. It's all moot, the system works well right now and I expect it'll be perfect with the new exhaust either way. The benefit really comes in that I can swap cans, or fit a silencer plug, or do whatever repairs as I fix up the bike and have no need for a new  dyno run. Even imperfect but pretty darned close beats the heck out of dropping a couple hundred on dyno runs to make rich and lean maps every time I fix something.

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The 4.9 version has a smaller plug that is completely oval where the 4.2 is bigger and has a flat side to the oval.

I use 4.9's on the VFR and also on the MV F3 I work on.

Also, just make sure that if you are sealing the headers up stream of the O2 sensor, use a sealant that is O2 sensor safe.  some HT silicones are not.

 

On that note, making sure that there are no air leaks in to the headers, up stream AND down stream of the sensor is extremely important in getting the best and most accurate results.

 

Make sure that the PAIR system is completely removed and well sealed.

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Bit of memory loss:wacko:, for 6g, The MTB wideband sensor is in addition to the 2 factory O2 sensors?

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13 hours ago, boOZZIE said:

Bit of memory loss:wacko:, for 6g, The MTB wideband sensor is in addition to the 2 factory O2 sensors?

 

Yes. Same as for the 5th gen 00-01 bikes.

 

The sensor goes in separately, after the merge.  There's a checkbox on the software to fudge the data if you leave the stock sensors in place, and they remain in place so nothing silly happens at the ECU.

 

On my 5th gen I just had a local shop pop a bung in the mid pipe as close down stream of the merge as I could fit it.

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18 hours ago, HighSideNZ said:

Make sure that the PAIR system is completely removed and well sealed.

 Absolutely! Mine was a leaky mess as is. I yanked that BEFORE I did the MTB and my idle changed a touch, which tells me it wasn't exactly working per spec anyway. You can argue about flapper mods, and I can see both sides, but I will ALWAYS recommend yanking the PAIR, regardless.

 

But if it's letting fresh air in you straight up won't get the right readings. Probably run rich and fluctuate based on how you're riding and how much air those valves are leaking in.

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3 hours ago, MooseMoose said:

 

Yes. Same as for the 5th gen 00-01 bikes.

 

The sensor goes in separately, after the merge.  There's a checkbox on the software to fudge the data if you leave the stock sensors in place, and they remain in place so nothing silly happens at the ECU.

 

On my 5th gen I just had a local shop pop a bung in the mid pipe as close down stream of the merge as I could fit it.

In this position?  Re Mohawk's pic p3

Mohawk's.jpg

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I'd get 3 bungs put in the pipe myself.  Like this.

image.thumb.png.a42dd82f7ebd3f8aad68bc305fbcaf7c.png

 

A single one past the last collector and one each just past the other collectors.

Then you can tune each set individually if you want.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

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