MooseMoose

Come on Greg, nobody is telling you the shut the fuck up. You should know by now I appreciate who you are. I just find it strange you're caught up on this. And, as for "flawless" performance, I've shown you a video of my leak free bike. You also have SF and Duc;'s word that their bikes work properly. They took pics of the gaskets on the way in, but didn't post in between pics when they were pulling one header and attaching another I guess. Ping SF and ask him if he has photos of the crushed gaskets if you care, he tested a bunch of different gaskets, but this is not "getting lucky" this is good experiences advised by people who do exhaust for a living and repeated a dozen times by those of us lesser mortals who have only done headers once or never before this exercise. There's a difference between making a decision between valid options and "mine works and you just got lucky." I think you did the former -- chose the smaller gasket because you were willing to live with the smaller id of the crushed gasket. But it's kind of hard to say that the larger gasket doesn't work when, clearly, they do. Also, I saw your thread. You installed one or two of your test gaskets backwards. If you'd put them seam in they would have performed differently and I would guess better. And, frankly, I had a slightly tight fit on one cylinder in the back, but mostly they popped into place for me without any hassle like you had. We've just had different experiences here is all. And, on this thread for Carlgustav, the point might be that it'll be a hell of a lot easier to check for leaks at the pipe joins BEFORE pulling the whole header off and looking at the gaskets. At least at the connector and slipon. If they're bad, then they are quickly fixed. If they're good, THEN I guess it's time to yank the header and see if something is leaking at the ports. By the way, I got a good laugh at the "I'm an ATP" line. Old friend of mine -- also ATP, 25,000 flying hours, A&P, IA at the airport I worked at -- used to always tease us when we helped with maintenance. "You know the four most dangerous things in aviation?" He was a wonderfully self deprecating man.

If it doesn't shut off, you have a leak. It's possible it isn't enough to cause problems and not enough flutter something up there. It's also possible you're leaking at the slip on or connector. But, this could be part of the issue. It's a problem long term either way as it could lead to faulty readings for your rapidbike. As an aside, Greg, I know you seem to have an issue with 42mm gaskets, but you're the ONLY one. And you never even finished your install to actually test whether properly installed 42mm would have sealed on your bike. So far several other people have installed these with those 42mm gaskets. I specifically know SF has done it half a dozen times on 6th gens, 5th gens, and I think an 8th gen, all using this 42mm Delk gasket. Duc has done it a couple of times including on his 5th gen. I've done it on a 5th gen and, though one was a little tight, it went into the port as I tightened the nuts and I got a good seal on all four the first time. Now, it's entirely possible that carl doesn't have a good seal for some reason or other, but so far 42mm Delk gaskets have worked for everyone else. Anyway, here's what you should expect (Again, this is 42mm delk gaskets). It shuts off post haste.

Yeah, I just rode at lunch after clearing my maps, let it correct again after plenty of cruising at 5K rpm. It corrects enough to run lean now. Really smooth, good throttle, and consistent. If you have the filter and FPR on hand, replace them. It may not be your problem, but if you already have the airbox off and the fuel tank off... there will never be a more opportune time. I may have another issue to chase, but I won't bring that up here. I've already muddied these waters. But I want to emphasize that one or the other (or both) of my FPR/fuel filter changes have brought a marked improvement in the hesitation and inconsistent running in the midrange for me. @Mohawk your point is well taken, but this bugs me: The rapid bike doesn't touch fueling at idle. Or below whatever your cutoff is, or at closed throttle. Rough idling is NOT a symptom you'd expect just from these pipes. They're not that different, and at idle you're running closed butterflies and feeding it via the starter valves. It should already just run slightly rich and a change in diameter of the primaries is NOT going to change AFR requirements at idle enough to muck things up this much by itself. That said, I'm flummoxed. That's why I suggest changing FPR and filter *now*, since they are normal maintenance items anyway. Check the pipes are properly sealed. If all that doesn't improve, yeah. Go back to the old headers and see if that improves it.

Could you do me a favor? Before you pull the headers, at least check them for leaks. That's the one thing that could be off with a fresh set of pipes. Just plug the tailpipe and see if the bike shuts off. That's how I could tell when my Delk headers were leaking, it'd barely run, but it would still run because it could expel pressure out one of the joints. If you're all sealed up it'll die. Also, I took a short ride yesterday evening. It is a lot smoother. Alas, I don't know if that was fuel filter or FPR because I discovered the kinked vacuum AFTER I had installed the fuel filter.

I don't disagree with the FPR and age. I replaced mine early on when I did my injectors on similar grounds. I had no clue that it was bad and, frankly, it was probably fine. I've kept it as a spare. But I was there so I did it. Same with my thermostat, though the old one worked fine and tests perfect. Mostly I didn't want to have to pull the throttlebody again, which is funny as I've had it off half a dozen times since. But having seen the condition of o-rings on the knuckles inside the V, I don't trust any rubber 20 years old that I can't see for myself. As a side note, the rubber stuff in the fuel tank is all in great shape. I don't know if this matters for a FPR diaphragm, but heat on an O ring sure makes things worse. All that said, don't count on this being the culprit until the weather dries up and I can put the bike back together. I'm literally a driveway mechanic, and it rained this morning, so I haven't had a chance to finish up. Anyway, I have been very focused on this vacuum system so I may be missing something else. When all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail. You might remember that you guessed I'd start throwing MAP codes, which turned out to be true, and I replumbed the vacuum lines, which stopped the codes. So, yeah, this leads me to a few ideas about my poor mileage. 1. I was getting less than 30 after the MAP codes started going off. 2. I was still getting poor mileage before the MAP problem was bad enough to throw codes 3. Replumbing the vacuum fixed the MAP codes, no new sensor needed So, to start with, if the vacuum leaked enough to cause the MAP codes, maybe it leaked enough my FPR was running too high a pressure across the board. I can't imagine that the FPR hoses were any better off than the ones running the sensor. After fixing the MAP I didn't really get good mileage. Better, but oddly better when hauling ass and not when cruising. But I only ran one tank before pulling the airbox to inspect things, so I could have partially kinked that hose even then. So, mileage improved, but only a little, and the rapidbike corrects less at higher RPM, but now I get a huge correction at 5% throttle. I think I fixed my default (rich) map at idle and still created a different too-rich condition at 5% throttle and less. the intermittent nature of my issue definitely lends credence to the partial blockage theory. And I don't know what else to check. heh. The new headers seemed to accentuate the problem a bit, but that has to be unrelated beyond just the minor differences. They are super high quality, don't leak, and I'm certain I'm getting valid enough lambda sensor readings. So that's totally out of the equation here. I had honestly wondered if my old headers were giving bad readings from leaks (they occasionally got a little leaky after a high temp run -- the Delk's have a LOT of slip joints) but think that was a red herring now. These pipes seal and work well. I could philosophize a lot, but either way I screwed up kinking that hose and fixing it (just like fixing the vacuum leak in general) will be a net positive. Gonna grab lunch and hope the sun shines so I can put the tank back on this evening.

Interesting little sidelight here. I drained the tank and put in the new fuel filter. Haven't had a chance to ride it. Ran out of light putting it back together, so I guess I'll find out how it goes after the storm tomorrow passes. However, while inspecting everything I did find something interesting. The vacuum line to my fuel pressure regulator was a bit bent. Not enough to cut it off completely, but possibly enough to make for inconsistent vacuum. I guess when I put the airbox on last time I got it pressed beneath another vacuum line and it was pulled downward. I routed it above that other line now so it doesn't have a sharp bend coming off the FPR, so... yeah. That could easily have been the reason for inconsistent fueling. Intuitively, it seems this could be the culprit. The way the FPR works is to keep fuel pressure at 36psi above manifold pressure. That's what the second pair of vacuum ports on the throttlebody is for, to provide the manifold negative pressure. As the vacuum pulls on that FPR it counteracts the spring holding the diaphragm closed so if the difference is MORE than 36psi the diaphragm opens and lets the fuel flow into the return line. Ergo... if I'm not pulling my regulator open soon enough with vacuum, I'm going to run too high a pressure in the fuel rails, which would explain my rich condition at lower RPM. Higher RPM with the throttle open there's enough vacuum to swamp the effects of a partial restriction on that vacuum source so corrections don't need to be so great, but at 5% throttle heck no. There's very little vacuum here at idle. So, that's my working theory. I state it here before I've tested it, so I may be full of crap. We'll see. Next time I pull the throttlebody, I think I'll put a longer line there and route it slightly farther around so it won't ever kink even if I do get it squished between the hoses for the reservoir and one way valve/solenoid. I do want to replace the breathers for my starter valves, so I have to yank it the TB off some time. Another item on the project list. Also, fair warning. Getting the filter/pump plate out and back in kind of sucks. The rubber boot around the prefilter really has to be crammed in there. Come on Honda, could you REALLY not find another half inch there to make removing and replacing a little more elegant?

Water injection is a great power aid. It was used in WWII radial engined fighters to give them greater compression for extra power and in other applications as well. Hitting the water jackets AND the extra CCs -- sounds like a win-win to me!

If you reach 88mph will it start to run backwards?

The lines on these things are 20 years old. I did my clutch with braided when I did the brake lines and it was a cheap, easy upgrade. It improved consistency as much as anything. Never thought to swap the slave, though. What sort of difference did you find when you swapped it all out?

Yeah, that's where I'm starting. Mine came in the mail yesterday. Let me know how it goes for you. I'll do the same.

@carlgustav my bike went a little richer at idle with the new headers, too. I was checking with my rapidbike wideband sensors. I haven't talked about any of this because I haven't really worked on it, but I started looking at fueling last week after putting the headers on. This was because of a different problem started to become accentuated. By that, I mean that I think it has been coming on for a while, but now I really notice it and it is getting much worse. I'm actually getting slightly inconsistent power delivery in the low-mid range cruise area, like 5K and 5% throttle, and sometimes, not always, it will go a little rough in that area and feel like I've lost some power. At higher revs it seems fine, but at lower it is getting to be a noticeable issue and seems to be getting worse. I've got the RB and a wideband sensor, so I know for certain it's rich there. I've looked at my fueling in the driveway and it'll show like 10.6 as I hold it at some rev -- 4000K maybe -- then it'll go up to 11.5, 12, 12.5, then maybe back to 9.5. If I enable correction in that range the rapidbike will spin it up, maybe 10% enleanment trim, but then it'll start to lean off almost at random and RB will have to correct, but then again it'll get back to rich and so on. This will happen with stock sensors bypassed, so Honda isn't changing the map. It really feels like fuel flow is inconsistent, and I have a new FPR and did my injectors last year, so I don't think those are culprits. Having read the fuel filter thread linked below I have decided to change my fuel filter. I had thought it was new when I bought the bike, but I confirmed with PO he didn't do it, so that's an 18 year old item right there. New one is on the way, so I'll change it out over the weekend and see what happens. I know it seems counter intuitive that restricted fuel flow makes it go rich, but it is possible it is correcting the lean condition then when the flow gets good again I'm going rich. Haven't explored this, though, just bought the fuel filter and will look into it all when I've changed that mess out. I'll report back here what my results are. Now, I have a couple of questions. 1. When you downloaded "the map" don't you have sensors hooked up to your RB ? Mine used the stock sensors to trim before I got the wideband and My Tuning Bike installed, so the only maps I ever got from RB were ignition maps. I built the rest off of the stock narrow band sensors. 2. Very low RPM -- is this below the threshold where your rapidbike starts correcting? So at that point it is using stock fueling? I am assuming since you restored stock mapping that your issue is fundamental, not the RB module.

I used to lean enough to touch pegs on the 3rd gen. Not often, but there were a couple of corners on my favorite roads where I'd crest a hill and sometimes they'd just kiss the pavement. And a track day every year or two usually took a little metal off. Ride smooth on a third gen and it won't let go until you've folded the peg completely flat and start grinding hard parts. I replaced the curb feelers every year whether they needed or not and they usually needed it. I haven't actually ever touched a peg on the 5th gen. I know I can, and I'm genuinely impressed with the stickiness of that Road5 rear for a long-life tire. But with the DMR suspension, the geometry of the bike, and the roads I'm riding these days I have a ton of clearance for how fast I'm going, and I am an old dude who just don't need to go any faster. The roads around here are a lot more crowded than they were 20 years ago, so I never seem to have as much latitude to get a good rhythm going, either. Probably won't touch my chicken strips until I do a track day. But on topic, the Road 5 is a winner. MUCH better than the 3s I pulled off, and I have a lot of confidence in that rear. I am glad I waited long enough to get them instead of the 4s. And I've got maybe 4000 miles on them with plenty left to go. That's pretty impressive.

Not me. My chicken strips are plenty wide and still look new. Then there's the rough stuff, then the hard center rubber. Maybe I should go at the edges of the tires with some 60 grit so I look cool.

I certainly do. You definitely know where the soft compound starts on my rear.

I'm just now noticing that some parts are getting less available. Compared to a few years ago when I picked up my 5th gen, that is, some stuff that was to be found then is now dropping off. Fairing pieces, hoses, etc. Still a good selection of parts, though. Anyway The special nuts are part number 90304-HB3-771 and can be had anywhere. Just do a web search. They're about $4.50 each and Honda uses them on all kinds of motorcycles, so there's no problem with them going out of stock any time soon.

Don't be intimidated by this job. Especially of you have a second set of hands to help you spread the front pipes to fit the ports. I posted my issues as well as success to show you that there might be tiny problems, but they'll all be easily handled with patience. From reports so far, I think mine might have been the wobbliest of them -- nobody else has bumped into their fairing and everyone else has been able to get their outlet past the centerstand without dropping it -- so I bet you don't even have the minor hassles I did. Use Anti-Sieze grease. I used this kind: https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/versachem-5169/chemicals---fluids-16461/maintenance-chemicals-16867/grease---lube-16582/anti-seize-17774/31f81cb18df6/versachem-anti-seize-lubricant/13109/4776633?pos=8 I chose it because it was available at a local auto parts store and SF had used it as well. I live a few exits down the freeway, so we probably bought it at the same store. I would also be perfectly happy with the Permatex brand Anti Sieze. Comes in a similar tube. My mechanic friend uses a different brand of Copper bearing (maybe Loc-Tite) as well. The problem comes in taking the nuts off after they've been heated up and cooled down many hundreds of degrees over a couple of years. This helps with that. I used a dab of it on the threads of the o2 sensors, as well. Be careful not to get it near the holes, but I figured it should be used. When you buy an o2 sensor for a car or truck it'll normally come with antisieze already on it and so I assumed it was needed. And in this application it definitely won't hurt anything.

So, the previous owner had put in an aftermarket tail light unit, and kind of hacked up the harness. I had to replace it after a lens got smashed and the new one I got from Europe didn't have the same connectors, So I crimped on some spades real quick to get it on the road (I wanted to test the exhaust!) but there's no way in hell I was leaving it that ugly. I've been meaning to pull his spade connectors anyway, but now was the time. I will preface this by noting that I have since found you can buy Honda sockets for $9 each, and I also found the loom end plugs. So... yeah. I could have made it more stock like if I was patient. And I have purchased the loom end plugs so if I want to go back to stock I can cut the new block out and 7 crimps later I'm good to go. Anyway, here's what was in there when I realized I should take some pics -- it was worse before this, all wrapped up in sticky electrical tape that had that melty goo quality that that shit gets after a couple years. NEVER use sticky electrical tape in a motorcycle! The old light only lit the red during normal running So, I made a new loom with a 9 pin connector -- and I separated out the switchbacks to they're powered by the low power brake light signal rather than just left open like stock. I wrapped the wire mess with cold shrink tape. I could have done a neater job there, but yeah, I was out of the techflex I normally use and didn't realize, so I improvised. Whatever. it's all bundled nicely and cold shrink doesn't leave sticky goo, which makes me very happy if I want to do future service on this mess. I made it so it would be storable up above the tail light When its done it is totally out of the way. Which is good, that little pocket there is where I tuck my pen case when headed to the coffee shop, or my wallet and phone when I'm wearing leathers. Now the wires are completely out of the way. And all lights light. This looks brighter than it is relative to the first pic because I took it well after dark I have the flasher to slow that blinky light down. It was fine before, but I also added LEDs in the front turn signals, and with LEDs front and back it does this. I'll put the flasher in next time I pull the front fairing fr some reason.

I think that was expected Scottie. Greg didn't torque the rear cylinders so they are just started, not fully seated at all.

Looks to me like 1 and 2 (with the seams properly facing in) would have been just fine. 4 is the oddball here, I swear my ports look a little different on the front, but I still think 4 would have been fine if properly placed. SF and Duc have done several header installs with 42mm, I'm using 42mm, all successfully. Mine sealed on the first try and have been through a dozen heat cycles and 100 miles, still good. SF tried multiple sizes and types before coming to the 42mm Delk recommendation. That said, You do what you need on your bike. You're a good mechanic and I'll be interested in your results. Please post what happens with the 41mm.

42mm. Mine did that, too. They're exactly as large as they can be, and one was even difficult to get in there, but they worked like a charm. I had to cram them into the ports, but the headers pushed them into place and I'm leak free, first try.

Hah -- yeah, falling in 70 mph traffic is worse than just the road rash. I've seen a tread come off truck tires before. It started whipping around, throwing pieces. Every which way -- one of the belts was attached and it was shredding against the underside of the box. I was in a car, but it was an impressive sight. It's totally unpredictable, and a pound of rubber at 70mph is not something I want to deal with on a bike. And, frankly, I don't want to be anywhere near a trailer, anyway. Even in best of circumstances anything from a gust of wind to some asshat on a cellphone can cause the truck to have to move or react. Even if I can see his eyes in his rear view mirror, I'm gonna get away from any truck on the freeway. Let that guy deal with his truck, and not have to worry about me. I really don't want to be the jerk who sneaks into the poor guy's blind spot when he needs to move over a lane, either.

Not sure how you wired that. Not having resistors sounds elegant, but a couple of Rs covered in cold shrink tape really don't get in the way, either. But I am interested in what you did there. I just plug the lambda sensor into the stock harness, and I assume it gets its power there. The MTB is powered with the rest of the RB stuff off a relay I wired to the tail light circuit, so it's isolated until the key is turned on. This afternoon I put it back to resistors in the sensor feeds. I left the stock o2 sensors plugged into the rapidbke harness, but unplugged the connectors on Honda side and put the eliminators there. This is how I was running it before my experiments. Without being plugged into the Honda end of the harness, I assume they're not being powered and, therefore, doing absolutely nothing here. In summary, I'm glad I did the experiments. I know now, for absolute fact, that rapidbike's docs are utter shite and that I was doing it properly before, correcting off the static map. I post all the experiments here so all others don't have to bother.

I live near enough to a freeway that I occasionally hear when these things explode. About once a year. It sounds like a shot. Lots of force. Those things are inflated to way more pressure than a car tire. Like 80-110psi, depending. Chunks of rubber can fly off like shrapnel. I stay far away, personally. Glad you're OK.

That's exactly the way the original Two Brothers pipes they were patterned off of fit. Everyone should expect this.

This is exactly what I expect. I just wanted to do my due diligence since Rapidbike say you should leave your stock sensors connected. Now I know for certain, with all other variables fixed, it doesn't work that way.