Beck Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 After nursing my battery back from near death last year, it finally gave up the ghost this week and could not hold enough charge (CCA?) to even turn over and start the engine. So I went to Mission Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki in SF and was ready to finally try out a Ballistic or Shorai battery, but the parts department guy told me that they do not sell lithium batteries anymore, because of too many returned/failed batteries in the last year. The sales person also said that the warranty support was very poor from the two manufacturers, so they pretty much came to a conclusion that the new battery types are just not ready for the road. I'm quite disappointed that a dealership parts department had rejected the new tech batteries as I though it was mostly good news in the last couple of years from owners of lithium the batteries Per the parts salesperson's recommendation, I am now considering buying a Yuasa YTZ 12S with 1.0 amps and 210CCA at 185 bucks which is slightly more powerful CCA-wise than the stock YTX 12BS (180CCA). I'm almost ready to push the button to buy the YTZ 12S from an eBay seller for $123 delivered (compared to the typically inflated $185 from the dealership), but I'm still. Should I take the dealer's word for it about the lithium based battery and get a Yuasa AGM? Are there still really any valid doubts about the Shorais and Ballistics?? I've been dealing with the dealership for many years and I had always gotten good service and advise from them, that's why I find it hard to ignore what they are telling me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gll429 Posted October 12, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2014 3 of my customers Shorai batteries didn't last 1 year.. even with the " smart charger" on them when it was cold out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted October 12, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2014 I'm sure the dealers get a pretty good mark-up on the batteries, so what would be their incentive to stop handling them unless there were problems? If you've dealt with these guys in the past and semi-trust them, why would you now think they're lying to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted October 12, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2014 There's your problem, not the battery the customers ! So here's some news for ALL. 1. There are NO LiPo batteries for sale as bike batteries, they are all LifePO4, which means they are 10% heavier, have about 5% less total energy in them, but most importantly they DON'T catch fire if abused, like LiPo's will ! 2. A 4 cell LifePO4 battery has a nominal max voltage of 14.8v which is perfect for our needs (3.7v per cell). 3. CHARGING, Pay attention at the back. These batteries should NEVER be trickle charged, If you have a lead battery smart charger, then once it switches to MAINTAIN mode, which is usually when the green light comes on on many chargers, they should be disconnected from the charger. 4. Discharge profile, these batteries lose their charge by a few % per month, unlike lead that will lose 15-30% per month depending on its condition. So you DON'T need to keep them on a charger. Just turn it on for a few hours every three months, to keep it full. 5. The only chargers that can be left attached are LifePO4 Balance chargers, but they require a connection to every cell in the battery individually, so that each can be charged separately, so that all cells are balanced. Most bike batteries only have a positive & negative terminal, so if yours has a separate multipoint connector that will be the balance charger port. End of lesson, on modern battery tech. Most commercial batteries are based on A123 cells with a plastic box around them, these are great cells, but small & sensitive to mis charging. If you want a great cell, then have a look at Headway cells, I have a battery made from 4 of their 10amp cells in my 5th gen. That has been working great for 3 years & 10,000miles. The VFR std lead battery is 4.5kg, 4 of these are 1.3kg, thus saving over 3kg ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted October 12, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 007 Posted October 13, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2014 There's your problem, not the battery the customers ! So here's some news for ALL. 1. There are NO LiPo batteries for sale as bike batteries, they are all LifePO4, which means they are 10% heavier, have about 5% less total energy in them, but most importantly they DON'T catch fire if abused, like LiPo's will ! 2. A 4 cell LifePO4 battery has a nominal max voltage of 14.8v which is perfect for our needs (3.7v per cell). 3. CHARGING, Pay attention at the back. These batteries should NEVER be trickle charged, If you have a lead battery smart charger, then once it switches to MAINTAIN mode, which is usually when the green light comes on on many chargers, they should be disconnected from the charger. 4. Discharge profile, these batteries lose their charge by a few % per month, unlike lead that will lose 15-30% per month depending on its condition. So you DON'T need to keep them on a charger. Just turn it on for a few hours every three months, to keep it full. 5. The only chargers that can be left attached are LifePO4 Balance chargers, but they require a connection to every cell in the battery individually, so that each can be charged separately, so that all cells are balanced. Most bike batteries only have a positive & negative terminal, so if yours has a separate multipoint connector that will be the balance charger port. End of lesson, on modern battery tech. Most commercial batteries are based on A123 cells with a plastic box around them, these are great cells, but small & sensitive to mis charging. If you want a great cell, then have a look at Headway cells, I have a battery made from 4 of their 10amp cells in my 5th gen. That has been working great for 3 years & 10,000miles. The VFR std lead battery is 4.5kg, 4 of these are 1.3kg, thus saving over 3kg ! What he said. I can't speak for VFR charging systems and Li batteries or the always on clock which may prevent the battery from going into "sleep mode" (which makes me somewhat hesitant to put one in the VFR), but I have had a great experience with my K12S and Shorai. Going on 2 years and 30K miles now and no problems. The bike runs better, it is notably lighter, and doesn't need a trickle charger. Win-win-win. New technology and old habits don't go well together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Why buy a YTZ12 when you can buy the ytz14 and its the exact same size. The lithiums have always been flakely and hit or miss, longevity and dependability is still resides with the agm's. Lithiums are great for power tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer digitallyhip Posted October 13, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2014 Why buy a YTZ12 when you can buy the ytz14 and its the exact same size. The lithiums have always been flakely and hit or miss, longevity and dependability is still resides with the agm's. Lithiums are great for power tools. +1,000,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted October 13, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2014 My Shorai is over 2 yrs old and works GREAT! Fires my bike right up even if it has been sitting off the charger for three months... I do have the purpose built Shorai charger that plugs into the port on the battery for cell charge balancing when I do hook it up so I think that really makes a difference... can't use any other type of charger that just hooks up to the +/- terminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGREGT Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I've had a Shorai on my 07 VTEC for nearly 5 years now, it's always been on a Battery Tender when I'm not riding it (I called Battery Tender and spoke with tech who said it is fine for them) and have not had a single problems starting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zRoYz Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Another Shorai user without problems, had in my 04 over 4 years zero problems & I never charge it other than when riding which is only once twice per month. I do use a voltmeter to keep an eye on the stored charge because the biggest killer of these batteries is letting the charge drop bellow a certain threshold. I feel the warranty returns have a high % of user error more so than product failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer pres589 Posted October 13, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2014 I've got a year on a Ballistic 8-cell, which I've been told by Ballistic tech support is smaller than what they would normally recommend for a VFR800. 10k miles and some mis-treatment due to a stator failing during a trip this past summer, and it's been an excellent battery. I do not have a smart charger for it, only old school lead-acid car chargers. You cannot walk away from one of these chargers while attached to the battery; once charged, their internal resistance goes skyward, which then causes the charger to push really high voltages to the battery. I may go for a smart charger for storage over the winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer bryan217 Posted October 13, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2014 I just put a Shorai in mine earlier this year, so I can't speak to its long term reliability, yet. But so far it's been great. I'll see how it handles the winter, when I try to go out at least once a month, if even for an hour or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luvtoleanit Posted October 13, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2014 I have several Yuasa's at home. Would be happy to sell you one cheap and put it in the mail tomorrow. I'm running Shorai's in all 3 bikes and nary an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted October 13, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2014 I just put a Shorai in mine earlier this year, so I can't speak to its long term reliability, yet. But so far it's been great. I'll see how it handles the winter, when I try to go out at least once a month, if even for an hour or two. In you have a voltage meter, wait to start after about 20 seconds when cold outside . You will notice the voltage go up and then start . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 I think I will go ahead and get a Shorai 12 cell LFX18A1-BS12 then. It's only about 30 dollars more than a Yuasa YTZ 14S at ebay these days.... There seems to be enough people here happy about the Shorai battery to get rid of most of the doubts.... I'll tell you guys how it goes....15th payday will be the day I buy it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roebling3 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 +1 on Switchblade. Might it be called 're-organizing its molecules?' I've a Guzzi Daytona w/a 3+ year old Shoria battery. I don't ride it so much. It's always in a warn, dry basement. Before I try starting I turn the headlight on for a minute. On start it spins for ~10 or 15 seconds. Fuel pressure comes up and she fires every time. I've never connected a charger to it. On those bikes the battery is carried under the rear cowl. High and way back. A noticeable difference in handling, plus a much easier fit. YVMV. R3~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I too built my own Headway cell battery and it was great...until i didn't ride for a few months and a power drain killed one of the cells. After this happened a couple time (I don't learn the first time apparently) I was left with only 3 cells...and was tired of the games. I did have one short out in a watercraft...that was interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted October 17, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 17, 2014 +1 on Switchblade. Might it be called 're-organizing its molecules?' I've a Guzzi Daytona w/a 3+ year old Shoria battery. I don't ride it so much. It's always in a warn, dry basement. Before I try starting I turn the headlight on for a minute. On start it spins for ~10 or 15 seconds. Fuel pressure comes up and she fires every time. I've never connected a charger to it. On those bikes the battery is carried under the rear cowl. High and way back. A noticeable difference in handling, plus a much easier fit. YVMV. R3~ I like that "re-organizing its molecules". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 Well, I'm on my way home in my car finally with a new battery for my 4th gen.........No, not A Shorai or Ballistic,..... but a Yuasa AGM YTZ14S with the higher CCA rating than original equipment........ Just before I clicked the BIN button for a Shorai 12 cell battery from eBay this past Wednesday, I decided to do one last check with MC dealers and parts stores I frequent and trust, and holy cow! Its the same news from all of them. They all got out of the lithium battery market for the same reason. They supposedly had been failing on customers left and right. Even one of the biggest parts and accessory dealers in the bay area, "Road Rider" also quit on the lithiums.... So today I got myself the YTZ14S after a BMW dealer gave me a good deal on it. I guess I'll just wait till the lithiums get a more solid, consistent reputation from more riders and when MC manufacturers start putting them on bikes as standard equipment....then I might reconsider getting them in the future..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer ggathagan Posted October 19, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 19, 2014 Why buy a YTZ12 when you can buy the ytz14 and its the exact same size. The lithiums have always been flakely and hit or miss, longevity and dependability is still resides with the agm's. Lithiums are great for power tools. Why buy a YTZ12 when you can buy the ytz14 and its the exact same size. The lithiums have always been flakely and hit or miss, longevity and dependability is still resides with the agm's. Lithiums are great for power tools. +1,000,000 The reason a YTZ14 is the same exact size but, with a higher CCA is that they are made with thinner lead sheets. You gain CCCA, you lose lifespan. I went through 2 YTZ14 Yuasa's in 2 years before finding this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted October 19, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 19, 2014 The YTZ12 has always turned my bike over fine. When I looked at the YTZ14 as a replacement, it was about $25 more at the local shop and weighs an additional 1/2 pound, so I figured I'd save on both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGREGT Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Odd how so many dealers won't sell them, and there are many riders (on this forum and folks I know from bike-nights who are not on VFRs) that love them and would only buy another one as a replacement. Something doesn't jibe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Why buy a YTZ12 when you can buy the ytz14 and its the exact same size. The lithiums have always been flakely and hit or miss, longevity and dependability is still resides with the agm's. Lithiums are great for power tools. Why buy a YTZ12 when you can buy the ytz14 and its the exact same size. The lithiums have always been flakely and hit or miss, longevity and dependability is still resides with the agm's. Lithiums are great for power tools. +1,000,000 The reason a YTZ14 is the same exact size but, with a higher CCA is that they are made with thinner lead sheets. You gain CCCA, you lose lifespan. I went through 2 YTZ14 Yuasa's in 2 years before finding this out. Ive not seen that lower life span at all, My oem battery got 42,000 miles and the ytz14 yuasa got about 45,000 miles, the 3rd battery is a ytz14 scorpion, it has about 23,000 miles thus far. Where did you get your batteries from? I rarely use a tender also My results are quite different, but the 4th bat will also be a ytz14, not only cca gain , but you forgot to mention alittle more reserve power also. You say it has thinner plates, maybe that's true, or maybe there some unused space in the 12, but the 14 seem every bit or more life wise. BTW ,The st1300 and the FZ1 both use the 14 as an oem, I seriously doubt they are going through a 14 every year as you, Id say there's more to your story that caused early failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer ggathagan Posted October 19, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 19, 2014 Why buy a YTZ12 when you can buy the ytz14 and its the exact same size. The lithiums have always been flakely and hit or miss, longevity and dependability is still resides with the agm's. Lithiums are great for power tools. Why buy a YTZ12 when you can buy the ytz14 and its the exact same size. The lithiums have always been flakely and hit or miss, longevity and dependability is still resides with the agm's. Lithiums are great for power tools. +1,000,000 The reason a YTZ14 is the same exact size but, with a higher CCA is that they are made with thinner lead sheets. You gain CCCA, you lose lifespan. I went through 2 YTZ14 Yuasa's in 2 years before finding this out. Ive not seen that lower life span at all, My oem battery got 42,000 miles and the ytz14 yuasa got about 45,000 miles, the 3rd battery is a ytz14 scorpion, it has about 23,000 miles thus far. Where did you get your batteries from? I rarely use a tender also My results are quite different, but the 4th bat will also be a ytz14, not only cca gain , but you forgot to mention alittle more reserve power also. You say it has thinner plates, maybe that's true, or maybe there some unused space in the 12, but the 14 seem every bit or more life wise. BTW ,The st1300 and the FZ1 both use the 14 as an oem, I seriously doubt they are going through a 14 every year as you, Id say there's more to your story that caused early failure. Well, where I live, the temperatures are between 65 and 90, depending on time of year. My VFR is my only transportation, so the usage model is pretty consistent:40 miles round trip for work and 20 miles round trip to church on Sunday. All the other electrical components are original. I've had the bike since 2005. The battery I bought it with lasted 3 years. Replaced it in 2009 with a YTZ14, again in 2010 with a YTZ14 and in 2011 with the YTZ12. After going back to the YTZ12 in 2011, the battery lasted until earlier this year. All batteries were Yuasa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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