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lazyeye

The dreaded valve adjustment

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3 hours ago, V4Rid3r said:

 

Just ride it like its supposed to ride and have fun!

 

You realize that to "ride it like it's supposed to ride" would mean doing the maintenance that Honda recommends?  Do you understand that? ( Honda included a maintenance schedule in the VFR Maintenance Manual for a reason)

 

So your advice needs to be revised to something like: "Just completely ignore all of Honda's maintenance recommendations and ride like it's not supposed to ride and have fun!"

 

(Fixed it for you)

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Comon sense mate!

 

Of course I do all the maintenance in my VFR. But if the air filter its clean at 24k, Im not gona change it like the manual says.. also I don't use the recomended oil 10w30, I use 10w40 better for my country weather..

If the bike runs fine and I don't notice any thing different I ride it!

if it aint broke don't fix it! 

But thats me, riding for 20years never had a single engine problem in my bikes.

 

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16 hours ago, Philois1984 said:

Any other questions you would like answered Lazyeye🤣

Yeah Lazyeye!

 

4978.jpg

 

haha JK!!  :D

 

 

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On 5/28/2019 at 8:06 PM, Marvelicious said:

Thank you sir... This is actual useful info. If I ever begin to have hard-starting issues, I will definitely consider a valve adjustment as part of my troubleshooting. 

Oh, I have more data you might be interested in. Not VFR but VF1kF, but it could be relevant. Too tight valve adjustment and engine revs upto redline resulting in valve and piston connection which in turn suddenly resulted in a very big hole in the engine and engine oil all over the rear tire (at speed). Nice feeling it was not, and the stain in my underwear was majestic... I don't really care to repeat the experience.

 

No warning, no ticks or nothing from the engine, beforehand.

 

I'm not totally sure it was the valve adjustment I might add, but postmortem surely pointed in that direction (top end was surpringsly undamaged!).

 

Edit: When I (re)think about it now, it should really be the valve spring. But I might have catched it if I did regular valve maintence at the time (which I did not).

 

Edit2: Can't produce pictures anymore. Changed the engine for a used one (with it's own problems) and kept the old one for spares. I've now been informed that it's been thrown away by a relative that needed the space for other things, with very mint whole cams and one cam chain tensioner that at least looked serviceable. Am I crying over that fact? Yes! Yes, I am.

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Interesting story SweViffer VF1000F 1984 - 1988, might be not a good comparison to the OP's 2014 8gen. Are you saying that it was too tight a valve clearance and red lining the engine there was valve to piston contact, or was it a broken valve spring that caused the damage? Don't know if this would be relavent to the OP's questions. But if I was going to Redline my engine regularly I'd probably have a very different feeling about valve clearance inspections!

Glad you were able to walk away from the experience.

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No broken spring. Might have been old and not capable to evacuate valve from piston before TDC occured though.

 

Nah, might not be relevant to the OP's question, but perhaps to the "is maintenance necessary" bit of the discussion. I've learned that I need to do more of it than I did, but I'm not certain my experience will influence anyone else. Thought I should tell it anywho... It's a fun story (now). 🙂

 

And who buys a VTEC and not use the whole rev range? Heresy!

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If the VTEC valves are the tricky and therefore expensive part of the check could you not make a calculated decision on the results of the standard valve check. If they are within tolerance then surely the VTEC valves would be as used significantly less in normal commuting and touring. Wonder if the Dealers would consider this option?

I did my 1995 Yamy 600RG twice myself over the 70000km I owned it and the valves clearance did not change.

 

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On 5/31/2019 at 2:55 PM, ScottieDucati said:

 


If any mechanic tells you they’ve learned everything they can they’re not worth paying. I’m always learning, started learning how to check valves about a decade ago. By now I’m comfortable doing top ends and basic timing. Working on bottom end stuff now. Every time is a learning opportunity and more should view maintenance as valuable lessons to be learned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

So, "no".

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On 5/31/2019 at 3:54 PM, GreginDenver said:

Owning a motorcycle is a lot like raising a child because, as the child's parent, you're pretty free to do as good or bad a job of raising them as you want.

 

Good friends of mine raised his daughter in a manner that would give over 99% of parents massive coronaries.  I'm not even a parent and I certainly raised an eyebrow.  Well, the kid turned out to be very well-adjusted and very successful at everything she tries.  And, a lot more aware of the world around her, with ten times the critical thinking skills of anyone else I know except for her parents.  So was their parenting "good" or "bad"?

 

I guess what makes viewpoints like these intriguing is that "good" and "bad" are sometimes rather arbitrary terms, defined perhaps by norms that folks just cheerfully march to.  Maybe it's too much work to challenge prevailing ideas.

 

Oh, and for what it's worth, last year I had my 8th gen at the dealer for the full maintenance routine.  Valve check was part of that.  Bike comes out, I get the bill, it's surprisingly small.  Hmmm.  No valve check.  I inquire.  Old-skool wrench comes out.  I should mention he's a well-respected fellow around here who also races on weekends, and it's usually friends of the shop who get this guy out of the other six to have their bike worked on.  I ask him about the valve check.  He says the first check is never necessary on these motors but he did check them...  using the ol' screwdriver stethoscope trick.

 

Your Mileage May Vary

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On 6/6/2019 at 7:07 AM, PetePower said:

I did my 1995 Yamy 600RG twice myself over the 70000km I owned it and the valves clearance did not change.

 

And the whole point there is one good apple does not mean the barrel is full of good apples. As any scientist will tell you a sample of one has NO statistical worth as there is no data to compare it with.

 

I once had a brand new Honda UK test model CBF250, straight from the factory in Brazil to Honda UK for assessment, then sold to me. When they delivered it I noted a drip of oil on the head to barrel join fin. The driver made a note. I later put a big bore on it, but the front left head bolt would not torque down. When I stripped the barrel off again the alloy the stud screwed in to was very soft & had stripped the thread. A helicoil failed too. So I bored it out & made a steel thread reducer insert & that fixed it. But would that single example prove that all CBF250's were made of bad metal ? NO.

 

Your bike, your valves, your choice. But I'd expect a discount if buying one where the owner could not prove the checks had been done at least prior to sale. 

 

As always YMMV.

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Just to add another data point, when I checked my pre-vtec 800fi-y valves at 32k miles, 11 of the 16 needed replacement shims to bring them into spec, as far as I could tell, that was the first time the cam covers had been lifted.

The most recent check (at 64k miles) showed one that was on the minimum limit, but all others OK. 

 

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Guys.

The VTec valves are not tricky to do, it is just time consuming.

The special part is a little 4/5mm diameter stopper that holds the valve actuator across to allow the valve and bucket to contact each other.

 

I've done it many times and it is: (this is per bank. EG: Front or rear. Don't do both at the same time)

 

1.  Set up the cam timing and pull the cams

2.  Lift the VTec buckets and install the "stoppers"

3.  Assemble it all back together and do the cam timing.

4.  Measure and record all the clearances.

5.  Work out which are out of tolerance.

6.  Set up the cam timing and pull the cams

7.  Pull the out of tolerance shims and replace with correct ones

8.  Assemble it all back together and do the cam timing

9.  Measure and compare the clearances

10.  Readjust ones still not correct by repeating steps 6 thru 9

11.  Once all is OK, set cam timing again and pull cams

12.  Remove stoppers from all VTec buckets

13.  Reassemble cams and do timing.

14.  Move to next bank.

 

As you can see it is time consuming as even if they are all in tolerance you still have to pull the cams twice to fit and remove the stoppers.

 

My 2.5 cents woorth.

 

Phil

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This thread took more wrong turns than a "which oil is best for the track" thread on TrackDayJunkies. While you all have been having fun with it I was off touring Alaska and then doing trackdays.

 

So no, my question specifically about whether anyone with an 8th gen has had the dealer or mechanic do it, and whether it was successful has not been answered. This thread went into a bunch of "I'm proud that I never check anything, Hondas run forever blargle blargle". and people saying how easy it is to check it on earlier generations.

 

Anyways I'm not going to do it myself because I'm not a good mechanic and don't want to ruin it by trying to become a good mechanic on this. I guess I didn't make that clear.

 

Whatever.

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17 hours ago, Mohawk said:

As any scientist will tell you a sample of one has NO statistical worth as there is no data to compare it with.

Agree completely, and as I stated I checked the valve clearances twice on my Yammy.  And I will be definitely checking the Valve clearances on my Honda, when due.

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9 hours ago, lazyeye said:

So no, my question specifically about whether anyone with an 8th gen has had the dealer or mechanic do it, and whether it was successful has not been answered. This thread went into a bunch of "I'm proud that I never check anything, Hondas run forever blargle blargle". and people saying how easy it is to check it on earlier generations.

Mate, I don't think your question really has much relavance, as mechanics and dealerships are going to vary enormously all over the world. BUT hopefully all the info supplied in this thread (ignoring some of the egotistical stuff) from some very experienced people will go a long way to help you make an informed decision whichever way you go. YMMV.

Cheers.

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On 5/24/2019 at 6:36 PM, Thumbs said:

I had my valves done @ 16k miles, one exhaust had closed up, I’m at 27k now and will definitely get them checked/adjusted @ 32,000

 

The cost was £750, including new brake pads all round, all hydraulic fluids changed, air filter, plus the usual oil & filter ...cost includes 20% sales tax and 3 days of courtesy bike< my choice of bike

 

This was Fowlers the main dealer

 

Like sudolea I’d never have a BMW again

 

Isn’t this what asked for?

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On 5/23/2019 at 11:11 PM, lazyeye said:

Who has gotten their 36,000 mile valve service done on their 8th gen by a mechanic/the dealer? How was the cost? Did the mechanic do it correctly? Changing fluids is about the extent of what I'm comfortable doing and don't intend to learn on something as complex as a V4 VTEC.

 

I'm more than a little paranoid about taking my 8th gen in this winter because I have zero faith in the local Honda dealers. One flat out said "when it gets to that mileage just trade it in", and the other managed to screw up the fairings when they put them back on after the 600 mile service and overtightened the oil drain plug to the point the edges where rounded off. Add to my paranoia when my dad got the valves done on his '14 FJR1300 the dealer completely boogered it up and ruined the bike.

You're asking a lot there.  Not very surprising this thread turned out the way it did.  Bottom line:  do what your head tells you to do.  

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On 5/24/2019 at 12:40 AM, sudolea said:

I wouldn't trade in a well running and fully functional bike just to avoid a maintenance cost ! It's not a BMW !

Well, let's see. As an retired M.E. I do ALL of my own maintenance - by the book and check everything as per requirement. 

 

Aside from oil/filter/tire changes. It has required a total of two valve adjustments over the course of one hundred nine thousand one hundred and ninety five miles  - one at 7,500 miles (spec = 0.15mm inlet, 0.30mm outlet. Inlet was 0.16, ex was 0.32) and another at 82,500 miles (inlet was 0.13 ex was 0.28)

 

This machine in particular has been the paragon of reliability in my stable. No chains or sprockets nor anything coolant related and this one is without ABS and associated technicalities - nothing but oil/filter/plug/fuel filter/hydraulic fluid, tire and brake pad changes. Oil consumption averages less than 500ml/ at 4k mile intervals (as per blackstone lab oil analysis). This bike is far from babied, it's actually our family taxi (when fitted with ventura luggage) of sorts and also serves as the loaner to relatives and friends when visiting. It often just sits at 100mph+ for miles and miles and miles. An incredible machine which excels at being everything yet not the best at any one thing. 

 

This thing is akin to an semi contemporary two wheeled two cylinder four valve air cooled VW beetle. 

 

BMW%20R1100S%20almost%20110k%20-%202.jpg

 

BMW%20Prep%20Mileage.jpg

 

J.S.

 

 

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People are going to do what they want to do or not do for their own reasons.  The rest of it could almost be copy and pasted to an oil thread.  Everybody has an opinion including me.  I just don't need any lectures on whatever my decision is on things like this.  Kind of entertaining though.  

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On 5/24/2019 at 9:00 PM, lazyeye said:

So am I understanding the consensus is that VTEC VFRs rarely need the check?

Either way I'm not mechanically competent to do it myself, that's why I'm asking.

 

@Marvelicious

Salem Cycle Country service writer told me: "Nobody ever gets that done because its so expensive, just trade it in."

Cycle Country tech said: "We never check the valves on any bikes"

Beaverton Bob's Honda (where I got it) screwed up the fairings and over tightened the oil drain plug when I took it back for first service.

Fred's Honda in Corvallis, when I took my high mileage CBR600rr to them for valves and plugs claimed they did the work, and then forgot to hook all the ignition components back up, stranding me in the parking lot. Later when i rebuilt the bike after a crash I found a suspicious lack of took marks where there should be them, and the original plugs.

Waterworld Yamaha Medford screwed up the valve job on my dad's FJR. It was burning oil at an alarming rate and losing water afterwards and two visits later they couldn't fix it. Bob's Yamaha ended up fixing it.

Kawasaki Honda of Medford changed the tires on my mom's Vulcan and delivered it to her to ride home with hand tight axles...

Geez.. I was planning on taking mine for service at Beaverton Bob's or Procaliber in Vancouver.... I haven't been impressed with either. What's with all the crap mechanics in this region?

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3 hours ago, Indiekixx said:

Geez.. I was planning on taking mine for service at Beaverton Bob's or Procaliber in Vancouver.... I haven't been impressed with either. What's with all the crap mechanics in this region?

It's really most of the US I think. Between schools that advertise becoming "a technician" on late night TV and our country trying its hardest to join the third world*, it's more or less inevitable. Our region gets hit harder than some because the real estate market is outstripping wages at the moment. Ask anyone in a technical trade around here about trying to find good entry level people for wages that were considered generous 10 years ago... No point in getting dirty when you could make the same money slinging espresso!

 

I do hear good things about Bill's Motorcycles Plus in Salem. They are primarily a Husky dealer, so I don't really know about taking them a newer Honda street bike, but they are one of the few that I don't hear horror stories about. 

 

* Comment not intended to start any sort of a political discussion. A) there is plenty of blame to go around for the current state of things and B) this thread has gone far enough off the rails!

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This thread reminds me why I don't bother much with forums anymore🤔

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9 hours ago, Indiekixx said:

Geez.. I was planning on taking mine for service at Beaverton Bob's or Procaliber in Vancouver.... I haven't been impressed with either. What's with all the crap mechanics in this region?

OK, this is just my two cents. Keep in mind I got my 2015 in Spokane 3 days ago. I am a 70 year old guy who has been riding bikes and doing his own work on them (I am a govt licensed aircraft mechanic) for 50 years.  I have a 2014 Yamaha FJR and a 2017 Suzuki XT 650, both with shim under bucket adjusters. I am not going to touch them.  I just traded in my Honda 2010 NT 700V sport touring bike with 30k on it. It has screw adjusters but they arent especially fun to get to. Not bad...just not fun.  I had the dealer check those at 600 miles for $300 and he said they were fine.  I checked them the second time at 8k, and maybe tweeked one a bit. At 20k, since the euro boys were extending their checks, I did mine and no change. If I kept the bike, I wasnt going to check them again. The bike before that was a 2003. Kaw C10 with screw adjusters...they hardly ever changed at all. 

Keep in mind that a screw adjuster is not a shim, obviously. but here is my take.

I have a 2006 Toyota Matrix (Corolla). I took it in for the 60k shim under bucket check. He says they would do it if I like but they never see them out of tolerance. They just dont do it. 
And this is a huge dealer who has been in business a long time.

The Ford ecoboast engines have shim under bucket. No inspection interval.

My HOnda Vtec CRV , 2004, has screw adjusters. They get set every 105,000 miles. Mine were fine.

 

My take  on all of this is when I carefully set the easy to get to screw adjusters on my Yamaha 650 twins/ Honda 350 Twins back in the 1970s,, they did change a bit but not much. Those were air cooled engines. Made with materials and techniques from the last century.  My Yamaha 1980 XV920RH was air cooled but by then the setting didnt change much.

Then I got a 1983 Gold wing which has the easiest valves to set just about in the universe. Water cooled. They hardly ever changed. Metals and manufacturing were getting better all the time. I rode that sucker for 16 years.  

 

I know nothing about how to get to the valve covers on the VFR, but if it were just wrench spinning to get to them, and take them off, AND if it were easy to get a feeler gage into the non-vtec valves, I might check them myself.  If they were close, I would button it up and ride the bike and forget about it.  If one cant do that, I am just going to ride it. I dont ride hard. I am 70 and I have three bikes. I wont put more than 4-5K on any one bike in a year anyway. I paid $8900 for the VFR. If it blows up when I am 76, oh well. I got exactly $1800 for my 2010 Honda NT700V. I am not gonna sink $800 into having some person I dont know beans about set my valves. Way too much room for error.   If it makes you feel good, then pay the money and do it.  I dont think it needs it.  Yamaha wants me to change the plugs on the FJR at 10,000. Nobody does that on the FJR forum. That's crazy. And many dont do their valves either.  

 

Show me the piles of dead 21st century gently used bikes that didnt have their valves checked at 16,000. 😄

Yey old Spokane Coyote headed soon for the Reno National Air Races for two weeks on his FJR with the ORIGINAL PLUGS. Oh the horror....

vfr 1 fb.JPG

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I only know of 1 VTEC engine that blew up in the 20+ years I follows VFRs.... 

Turned out that the PO never changed the oil in over 50,000 miles.

The new owner took the bike onto German Autobahns (which have no speed limit) for a whole day blasting....

 

 

Bought my 4th Gen VFR750 in 1997 which included a "service" i.e. oil change after 1000km.

At the prescribed interval, went to the dealer for the valve check. He asked if I liked burning banknotes.......   They'd openeed quite a few VFR engines, never ever to find any outside spec.

at 90,000km's my VFR was in the hands of a  VFR guru mechanic to try fit a 3rd gen left exhaust (FAIL) so we decided to check the valves just for fun. ONE  of 16 was just a tad too wide out of spec. ONE.

With a used engine say $300 it is not worth paying a stealer 700+ for a check   

Why are VFR engines so cheap? cos they rarely if ever break.

 

My VF500F2 has screw adjustors and clearances get checked every 6-8000km's. Why?  Cos TheDutchy has nice coffee, we kick tyres, talk petrol while we change the oil and just want to be sure. VF's have a reputation of being handgrenades..... So far mine is doing great at 77,000kms. 

Recently, only after 30,000km did the wee VF need 1 adjusted  just a tad. (bought her at ~45,000)

 

 

Imho, spend your money on some nice leather pants (PICTURES PLEASE :goofy:)  or on rider training classes. Or a -beginners- track day (PICTURES PLEASE :goofy:)

 

YMMV

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