New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

[GreginDenver]

5 hours ago, JZH said:

I wish you'd taken some "after" pics!  

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

Depending on what you mean by "after" I might be able to show you something.  So what do you mean?

[GreginDenver]

 

 

 

 

[interceptor69]

Greg, looks like we have the same slip on. Did the pipe diameter match without any problem?

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[GreginDenver]

7 minutes ago, interceptor69 said:

Greg, looks like we have the same slip on. Did the pipe diameter match without any problem?

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Not sure what you mean by "match." 

 

I can tell you that I noted a very slight difference in the diameter of the New Header mid-pipe exit.  The New Header exit is just a tiny bit larger than the original 5th Gen exit.

 

When I had my Vance&HinesS4 mounted on the original 5th Gen exhaust I was able to slip it onto the exit using the standard Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket.  When I installed the new header I discovered that due to the New Exhaust's ever-so-slightly-larger exit there was no way to use the Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket, there just wasn't enough room (the carbon+mesh gasket is pretty delicate so you can't force it into a space that's too small without destroying it).

 

So I ended up using a do-it-yourself custom sized wrap of high-temp aluminum tape (stuff that's good to about 700 degrees F).  I don't know if I'll stick with this solution, I had the aluminum tape available at the moment and I wanted to take the bike out on a ride to hear what the New Exhaust + Vance&HinesS4 combo sounded like.

 

Let me know how your install goes, and if you can think up something that's a better substitute for the Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket.  

[interceptor69]

Not sure what you mean by "match." 
 
I can tell you that I noted a very slight difference in the diameter of the New Header mid-pipe exit.  The New Header exit is just a tiny bit larger than the original 5th Gen exit.
 
When I had my Vance&HinesS4 mounted on the original 5th Gen exhaust I was able to slip it onto the exit using the standard Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket.  When I installed the new header I discovered that due to the New Exhaust's ever-so-slightly-larger exit there was no way to use the Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket, there just wasn't enough room (the carbon+mesh gasket is pretty delicate so you can't force it into a space that's too small without destroying it).
 
So I ended up using a do-it-yourself custom sized wrap of high-temp aluminum tape (stuff that's good to about 700 degrees F).  I don't know if I'll stick with this solution, I had the aluminum tape available at the moment and I wanted to take the bike out on a ride to hear what the New Exhaust + Vance&HinesS4 combo sounded like.
 
Let me know how your install goes, and if you can think up something that's a better substitute for the Honda OEM carbon+mesh gasket.  

Thanks Greg.

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[JZH]

12 hours ago, GreginDenver said:

Depending on what you mean by "after" I might be able to show you something.  So what do you mean?

Unfortunately, I meant pics of the crushed 41mm copper gaskets, to show how they had expanded...

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

[GreginDenver]

6 hours ago, JZH said:

Unfortunately, I meant pics of the crushed 41mm copper gaskets, to show how they had expanded...

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

Yeah, sorry, you know how it goes, when you've decided on the solution you're going to use it puts the finish line in sight and you start looking forward to test-riding the bike. 

 

I definitely preferred the results I got with the 41mm copper gaskets over what happened when I tested the 42mm copper gaskets. 

 

This is still very much a situation that's "in play", it may turn out that another New Header purchase forum member will come up with the discovery of a completely different gasket solution that would be better than the 41mm copper gaskets from Delkevic.  But at this point I firmly believe in the 41mm as the best solution I had available.

 

I was very impressed by how neat and easy it was to install my New Header.  I used a "spreader" type clamp to ease the header around the center stand crossbar (which is slightly smaller than the center stand leg), this worked great.  My New Header matched up to the exhaust ports just as others have described, so I used a couple of Thule Rack cargo straps to put some pull force on where I needed it, like having an extra pair of hands.

[carlgustav]

After spending the afternoon looking at ideas for a center stand stop (here and my own), and realizing they weren't suitable for me, I took inspiration from pics that Duc2V4 posted earlier.

 

 

Made a mockup out of some perforated aluminum that's easy to bend/cut.  This is working and holding the center stand where I want it.  Now I need to use this template to cut/bend some thicker aluminum I have that's a somewhat bendable alloy.  Or I may just get some sheet steel from the local hardware store, might be easier to work with.  In no way will this look as good as the stuff many folks on this forum are capable of producing, but once finished and painted matte black, the piece should fade into the background and not be very noticeable.  I may also put a piece of rubber on the end where the stand makes contact, we'll see.  I need to make sure I put the hole for the bolt in the right spot to eliminate, or at least minimize, pivot movement.  Even with the slot, it's pretty solid now, but over time a slot wouldn't work.  One could get carried away and add an additional bend, drill a hole for the spring post, giving the piece another spot to jam up against.  For me, that's more work than I want to do, and my fabrication skills are minimal.  Maybe this helps, maybe it amuses, either way I felt the urge to post 😄.

 

ACE

 

[Marvelicious]

On 1/1/2019 at 12:17 AM, sfdownhill said:

Duc2V4 and I are looking for a set of used 6th gen performance slip-on midpipe/mufflers to purchase, borrow, or have donated for use dyno test/tuning the prototype new VFR800 performance header. Our test 6th gen has gutted OEM mid pipe/mufflers, and those won't flow enough exhaust gas to take best advantage of the new header.

A cosmetically damaged 6th gen slip-on would be great if fully functional. Any brand or model that is open flowing is fine; Two Brother Racing, Delkevic, Micron, Leo Vince, Akrapovic, Scorpion, Staintune, etc

We would prefer to accept a generous donation or loan and will pick up in southern California or pay for shipping [pay shipping both ways if the slipon is a loan], but we are willing to purchase.

WE ARE NOT PICKY. Thanks for considering this.

If it weren't prime riding weather, I might consider pulling the Leo's off and sending them in return for a slight discount on the header...😉

 

...but it's WAY too nice out to have the bike out of commission!

[sfdownhill]

On 4/28/2019 at 12:16 AM, Neo2122 said:

Not every header is 100% the same mine had plenty of space to fit that center stand through that gap, just an FYI

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6 gen headers have had 5/8" cut off the collector exit, so it may very well be possible to slip the headers on over an installed center stand. The three-point fastening of the 6 gen muffler system won't fit correctly with the stock 5 gen collector length. If you've ever wrestled a set of 6 gen mufflers onto a set of 98/99 OEM headers, you know exactly what I'm describing.

[sfdownhill]

On 4/26/2019 at 9:24 PM, RC51Nick said:

Lance,

 

Please let me know when the next batch of 5th and 6th gens are geared up to be made. I'm def ready to pull the trigger for the 2nd run of these.  Real curious to hear feedback from the guys running Staintunes on the 6th gen and how much of an issue it was getting the slipon midpipe to connect to the header (i.e. enlraging the end) Big thanks for getting these made.

 

Nick

 

Hey Nick - sounds good. Sorry to have taken so long to reply - I've been neglectful due to needing to get caught up with the day job and real life.

A few guys have placed deposits on 5/6 gen headers for the 3rd production run, so that will be the next undertaking after the 8 gens get finished.

[sfdownhill]

On 5/1/2019 at 6:15 AM, MiniCarver said:

Maybe someone wants to coat their exhaust for aesthetics? 

Yep, that's originally why I wanted to coat them. Vanity. Pure vanity.

 

 

On 4/29/2019 at 8:44 PM, Marvelicious said:

The reputable shop in my area routinely coats headers both inside and out. A properly applied coating inside the header seems likely to make up the difference in retained heat and the potential to drop the external temperature of the headers by 600 degrees has got to be worth considering... that's a lot of heat that is now flowing out the pipes and no longer trapped inside your fairings! If nothing else, your R/R may thank you at the next red light you sit through!

And that is the rub - a question that was brought up is "How does a professional applicator effectively coat the insides of multiple, connected bendy tubes?"

Answer: A coating company Duc2V4 told me about [Thank you Duc2V4] has devised a simple method of coating the inside of headers. This is so simple and of such quality that at first I thought the idea must have come from Mohawk. They plug the ends of the headers and pour the tubes full of the same ceramic coating that they apply to the tops of pistons, then they pour out the excess material before curing the headers.

 

And yes, standard ceramic coating on the outside of headers is thin...so thin that it is described as mechanically delicate [scratches easily]. The coating place also explained that different colors of the same ceramic coating product have different mechanical strengths - silver is toughest and most scratch resistant, black is weakest and scratches easiest, titanium [the color, not the metal] is somewhere in between, but closer to silver in strength.

[sfdownhill]

Here are a few notes spawned by MooseMoose's awesome, informative, and more than a little amusing installation thread. If you purchased headers, or think you might, or think you might ever install a set of any headers in your life, you can find MooseMoose's thread here:

 

And this is a bit of extension/extrapolation on his findings:

 

+1, +2, +3 on all the compliments for MooseMoose's detailed documentation of his header install odyssey! Great work, and thanks to him for all the extra time he put into sharing so much pertinent information with the community.

 

Here are a couple observations/additions that occurred while reading his thread:

 

- Header stud nuts, torque, and anti-seize

Confirmed: 9ft-lbs is more than enough to hold things together ESPECIALLY if using anti-seize. I bent flanges on the prototype headers when I used anti-seize and torqued the nuts to 9 ft-lbs. I suspect that at 9ft-lbs, the lubrication component of the anti-seize allows greater force to be exerted than 9ft-lbs on 'dry' threads with no anti-seize. I have chosen to wipe the anti-seize from the studs' threads on the 4 VFRs I've been using for the header project. I say 'wipe off' because I just remove what will come off with a rag and do not clean with any cleaner or solvent. Who knows, there might be enough residual a-seize left to do just enough good.

 

CAUTION 6 GEN OWNERS: in the list of torque values on page 2-3 of the 6 gen service manual, Honda states 'exhaust pipe flange nut' 15 ft-lbs. This is NOT the nut NOR the torque value of the header stud nuts we use to hold our headers to our heads. That sounded weird, but this problem with Japanese-to-English translation has caused one owner of new headers to overtorque the header stud nuts. Thankfully, no damage occurred.

 

Honda calls the header stud nuts 'Special Nuts', which sounds like a breakfast cereal one would eat while listening to MooseMoose's fictional band 'Overtorqued Nuts'. [Actually Honda calls them 'exhaust pipe joint special nuts' and specifies their torque value at the aforementioned 9ft-lbs]

 

Later in section 2 of the 6 gen manual the exhaust component torque values shown on the drawings are correct.

 

Be patient with the special nuts. As MooseMoose suggests, make circuits around all the nuts starting when they are all just finger tight. I've had 9-10 shots at removing and installing headers recently, and this procedure works best for me:

Once all 8 nuts are finger tight using a socket on extensions but no wrench, go through all 8 nuts in a circuit around the bike, adding 1/2 turn of tension. This takes a fair amount of time, but keeps all the exhaust components gently easing together into their happiest states. As soon as a  1/2 turn begins to require more tension - this will happen on one or two nuts before it happens on the others - switch to the torque wrench and set it at 5 ft-lbs. Go around another circuit of all 8 nuts, adding another 1/2 turn only where necessary until all 8 nuts reach 5 ft-lbs. Change the torque wrench setting to 6 ft-lbs and go around again, taking each nut up to 6 ft-lbs. Change the wrench's setting to 7 ft-lbs, rinse and repeat. On both 5 gen test bikes, going from 7 ft-lbs to 8 ft-lbs required only a tiny bit of wrench rotation, and going from 8 ft-lbs to 9 didn't produce any movement at all - I believe this is because the nuts were tight enough at 8 ft-lbs, and probably would have been safely secure at 7 ft-lbs. On the 8 gen test bike, the nuts stopped moving at 8 ft-lbs instead of 7 ft-lbs. Wade laughs at me when I crawl around the perimeter of a VFR with a torque wrench, carefully setting each nut. He says "Just tighten 'em until they stop crushing the gasket!". I guess with as much experience as he has, he can confidently 'feel' when the gasket stops crushing. I've chosen to stay with the torque wrench...it is my friend. 

 

 

[sfdownhill]

On 5/11/2019 at 7:32 PM, Marvelicious said:

If it weren't prime riding weather, I might consider pulling the Leo's off and sending them in return for a slight discount on the header...😉

 

...but it's WAY too nice out to have the bike out of commission! 

 

Thanks! It's super cool of you to consider loaning us a set of pipes as nice as your Leos. We did manage to get the 6 gen onto the dyno, and the associated muffler project was a trip which will be detailed in a separate thread soon.

[sfdownhill]

On 5/11/2019 at 5:33 PM, carlgustav said:

Made a mockup out of some perforated aluminum that's easy to bend/cut. 

 

Man, the folks on this forum come up with some of the coolest ideas! carlgustav, that perf metal is brilliant for prototyping - bends as easy as cardboard, but stays bent.

[Marvelicious]

2 minutes ago, sfdownhill said:

 

Thanks! It's super cool of you to consider loaning us a set of pipes as nice as your Leos. We did manage to get the 6 gen onto the dyno, and the associated muffler project was a trip which will be detailed in a separate thread soon.

Well... It wouldn't have been entirely altruistic... I would have been insisting on cutting in line for a header to come back with the pipe... It just would have been a good excuse to not put it off! 

[carlgustav]

14 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

 

Man, the folks on this forum come up with some of the coolest ideas! carlgustav, that perf metal is brilliant for prototyping - bends as easy as cardboard, but stays bent.

Thx. I got the stuff to make a front brake res. mount for my R6, and to experiment with. The mount doesn't look great but it works, and track bikes occasionally fall down reducing good looks anyway. A caveat, for tight bends like 90, you get about one bend, as flexing this stuff will soon tear it.

 

Random thoughts. Whatever material I end up using on this side needs to be strong enough to handle repeated bashing by the center stand, I don't think 1/16" sheet alum, or even mild steel, will work.
Stronger material, looking at 1/8", is thicker, so the bolt sits out farther than designed. I wonder if strength is reduced too much with respect to the strain this bolt normally 'sees'?
The stand curves outward, so a slight dual bend in the piece to compensate is indicated, but is not easy to create. Without fab shop tools and skills, this is a tedious process for something so minor.

 

ACE

 

[urdrvideo]

Gentleman... I have a complete Remus Slip on and a Complete Leo Vince Slip On for 6th gen bikes if they are needed for testing purposes.

They are not currently being used on a bike and can be loaned for an extended period of time for testing and fitment.

 

Please let me know 

 

Dennis

[eyrwbvfr]

I'm following now!  Nice job to all those involved in prototyping, testing and production!   Looks like I'm just in time for the 3rd (or 2nd?) 5/6 Gen batch run.  What is the timing for these to complete and ship and what is the deadline for the deposits?    Still wrapping my head around the cost and whatever else is needed for completing it.   Is the general consensus to go with no 02 sensors and a PC3?  What happens if I just do the headers for now without 02 sensors and do the PC3 later down the road?  Will I need a dyno run to dial it in?  Sorry for the dumb questions but I've never used an aftermarket fueling module or tuning a FI bike.   I'm mostly a carb guy. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by eyrwbvfr
Grammar

[sfdownhill]

1 hour ago, urdrvideo said:

Gentleman... I have a complete Remus Slip on and a Complete Leo Vince Slip On for 6th gen bikes if they are needed for testing purposes.

They are not currently being used on a bike and can be loaned for an extended period of time for testing and fitment.

 

Please let me know 

 

Dennis

Thanks for the generous offer, Dennis. We were able to put together a 6 gen slipon muffler assembly and test the headers with it. I bet your pipes sound better, though.

[sfdownhill]

23 minutes ago, eyrwbvfr said:

I'm following now!  Nice job to all those involved in prototyping, testing and production!   Looks like I'm just in time for the 3rd (or 2nd?) 5/6 Gen batch run.  What is the timing for these to complete and ship and what is the deadline for the deposits?    Still wrapping my head around the cost and whatever else is needed for completing it.   Is the general consensus to go with no 02 sensors and a PC3?  What happens if I just do the headers for now without 02 sensors and do the PC3 later down the road?  Will I need a dyno run to dial it in?  Sorry for the dumb questions but I've used an aftermarket fueling module or tuning a FI bike.   I'm mostly a carb guy. 

Hi eyrwbvfr - I've recently changed my subjective preference from new headers with no bungs and PC3 on a 2000-2001 VFR to one bung in the collector exit and PC3. I changed my mind when Jozef - the dyno tech at Attack Performance - was pleased to find an 18mm bung in the collector exit of the 8 gen test headers. He gets more accurate readings from his Bosch wide band sensor inserted into a bung in the collector exit than he does with a 'sniffer' inserted down the tailpipe.

 

A number of VFRD and VFRW members with 2000-2001s are getting good results with PC3, and some are happy with Rapid Bike fuel management systems. You may have read other posts in this thread that document the problems the 2000-2001s have with PCV - stay away from that device. An option would be to plan on headers with one bung for dyno tuning and obtain Dynojet O2 Optimizers to plug into your VFR's wire harness where the O2 sensors used to connect. There is a dyno chart earlier in this thread that has three graphs that pertain to your question: one graph line for baseline stock 5 gen, one with the headers installed but a zero map on the PC3 [zero map means the PC3 makes no changes to OEM fueling], and the third graph on the chart representing the headers with a custom tune done on the PC3.

 

The timing for the next production run of 5/6 gen headers depends on when we gather an order for 15 units or more. A rough estimate for delivery of the next group of 5/6 gen headers is 10 weeks from now.

[VFR750F3]

Finally put on exhaust on easy peasy the weight diffference is 3 pounds lighter than my delkevic. The delkevic header is powder coated the two brother exhaust is also for sale one dummy can. I might sell a leo vince beautiful bends no mufflers. I will weigh the stock header its in the attic thats for sale and so is a plethora of Vfr750f parts ie whole bike 86 some 93 also 8 spoke sold.

 

[Stray]

Does anyone know of this new header fits the RC45?

 

Technically the architecture is same but I believe the cam chain is in a different place (so maybe exhaust ports are too far out of alignment to match. 

 

I know HighSideNZ (Phil) fitted an RC45 header to his 5th gen engine but the archived thread mentions lots of welding and bending. 

 

Stray

[HighSideNZ]

Stray

The engine casting as the same between the RC45 and Gen 5 as far as what concerns header fitment.

My Shark RC45 headers fitted up without issues.

I modded them to allow use of the centre stand and to change the exit from left to right to suit me Gen 6 and the LeoVince cans I have.

Phil

 

[HighSideNZ]

Hi Guys

 

Any update on the Gen 8 headers please?

 

Cheers

Phil