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Cooking with Hydrogen.


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Hi gang.

Well, I've been telling a few of you that I was going to install an on demand Hydroxy gas Generator unit onto my 5ht gen VFR.

I've had conversations with tightwad about how many additional watts can the 5th gen's charging system put out to power the Cell.

Codewriter along with a couple of othes have been a godsend with PC V information.

This last Sunday, I finally got 99% of the installation finished and my VFR is back on the street.

I can already hear the questions.

What is HHO or Hydroxy gas?

Why would you want the generator on your bike?

Why/How did you get involved with this stuff?

So let me lay out a little history and cover some of the basics.

I was a Mechanical Engineering major in college, one of the Senior design teams that I Schlepped parts and turned wrenches for was doing research into Hydrogen powered cars. I had many conversations with the team Mentor and a couple of the smarter members of the team about what was wrong with both gasoline (and diesel) fuels, as well as ethanol fuel and hydrogen.

The issues all boiled down to this handful of issues.

One gasoline was originally a waste product in the petroleum refining, but it has high energy density (34.2 Mega Joules/liter, consumed in one second that's potential to do 45863hp of work). When oil was more available, it seemed like a good choice for fuel even though most IC engines waste 75-80% of the energy. Thanks to its high energy density, it's relatively slow burning, so it's easy to design a safe transport vessel for a mobile vehicle. Pump gas these days is a blend of up to 87 various hydrocarbons and other additives (most additives are more waste products from the refining column).

Ethanol is not as dense (its only 24 Mega Joules/liter, which is about 32185 hp), but has the features of being a renewable natural product and it is a single hydrocarbon. The downsides are that it takes a lot of energy to distill the fuel, which drives up its unit cost. Its a less energy dense fuel compared to gas/diesel as well. There is also no infra-structure to supply it to the average consumer. Slow Stable burning, single compound, but hard to make and harder to find a commercial supplier.

Hydrogen on the other hand is a rapidly burning clean fuel, explosive is how some people would describe it. Its hard to store since it has to be highly compressed (like 600+ psi) or chilled to a liquid (-435 F approximately). So tank for carrying Hydrogen is either very large and thick to withstand the pressures or its large due to is extreme levels of insulation. Even recent breakthroughs in storage with metal matrices have issues with repeatedly filling and discharging cycles. The simplest process to produce Hydrogen is electrolysis. You take a tank and fill it with water and a source of ions (something as simple as some table salt can work), install two plates and close the tank except for 2 ports over each plate to release the gas produced. Run direct electrical current through the "cell" and it will produce Hydrogen gas at one plate and oxygen at the other.

Still that takes a precise voltage and current for the design of this two plate cell and its not very efficient.

So Hydrogen is almost unstable, its hard and expensive to make in quantity, it takes more power to make than it gives back when burned and god help you figuring out how to put it in a tank for the car or bike!!!

BUT just wait a minute, what happens if we allow the two gases to be collected at a common port?? Well now you have very reactive "monofuel" called HHO or hydroxy gas. Its a perfect stoichiometric blend of H2 and O2. If ignited it will rapidly burn and produce WATER!!!!. So if you change your generator cell design to a common outlet port, you can stack cells like a battery. Essentially planning the required input voltage and currents based on the plate materials, the area of the plates and the number of cell in a stack.

And now these cells are still a bit more than you want to try to fit to entirely provide fuel to an ICE.

But wait a minute.

Adding a moderate amount of Hydroxy gas to a gasoline or diesel engine, can radically change the rate of combustion in the cylinder. It accelerates the rate of combustion of the primary hydrocarbon fuel (Gas, Diesel, Ethanol, etc). This leads to more pressure on the piston on the power stroke so there is more torque, less heating of the block, and less unburned hydrocarbon fuel going out the exhaust port.

Less waste, less heating of the block and even some more power.

OKAY Now That the science lecture is out of the way, on to the installation.

Well I got my hands on One of these cells

In fact the cell in top pictures IS my cell.

The main tank for my bike was custom fabricated and I knew I'd need a small pump owing to the orientation of the cell to the tank.

So I set out to install it under the seat on my 5th gen. I guess it was pretty typical as I had not done a much under there.

the back

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and toward the front

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Well played around with it a bit and eventually ended up with this rough mock up (sorry the picture is blurry but I was holding parts with one hand and trying to snap a quick picture with the other.

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you'll see better in a moment.

The first order of business was moving the relay I had installed to switch power to the heated grips. That went well and I ended up re-using it to switch a BlueSea's fuseblock on with the ignition.

Next was moving the pcm forward

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Here the pcm is up and out, the great wiring harness unwrapping begins

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Onward we went. Trimming pretty much all the plastic ribs, the bump and most of the bottom of the pcm pocket from the undertray. Gotta love those oscillating flush cutters. Some carefully pushing and shoving, a little bit of drilling and lots and lots of wire dragging and I got to this point.

here is where I located the pump, and right below it the new relay for the new stebel horn.

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Well there the cell sits roughly in the middle of undertray, right where the tool kit and a u-lock were supposed to go.

Its strapped well down and the seat's hooks have been slightly trimmed at this point to allow it to sit there

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Now from the side you can see how high in the undertray the cell sits and you can also wonder where the main tank is as it's not visible from this angle.

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here are the shots of where main tank is and the fitting running to and from it.

first the rear view

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then the view from below

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Note one large fitting to fill the tank, one large fitting running out to the pump and four small lines returning from the cell.

This is four cell unit and each small hose runs all the way back to the tank to prevent current leakage between cells.

Moving around to and up to the left side you can see the intake supply hose as it leaves on its journey to the bubbler/drier as heads to intake.

you can also see the pcm relocated to just behind the battery along with the bluesea's fuseblock. The powercommander is stuck up under rubber skirt hanging off the tank hinge and will share that space with the autotune module when it arrives.

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Note the cables to the fuseblock are from my battery charger, I was using that to test out the cell for output and to search for leaks.

these next four photos show just how little space is left between the cell and seat.

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Now lets head towards the front and you can see where I mounted the bubbler/drier. This has two purposes, one it scrubs any water vapor and/or traces of electrolyte out of the gas before it goes to the intake. Two, it acts as a backflash arrestor, HHO a very reactive gas and in a back fire will go all the way back to the main tank and possibly blow it up.

If you have ever seen a nitrous oxide backfire, that's the kind of sudden reaction we don't want. So we put this inline.

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I'll make a nice bracket for it down line a bit (Like a couple of other things), but for now that's were it is going.

Here is the final money shot, all buttoned up and idling away with HHO flowing

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When I did fire it up with the cell running (its drawing about 9.5 amps, that's counting the 1.2-1.5 amps that pump draws as well), the idle when warmed up is about 650 rpm higher than before and it takes for ever to get really warm.

I'm thinking I have to bump the PCV's engagement temperature down from 165F.

I still have to get the autotune installed and I need to work on a few other little bits.

I also think I'm going to be going with a bunch of led bulbs to keep the power requirements down, but for now, I'm just trying to get out ride it.

Mileage and dyno numbers will follow.

Edited by HispanicSlammer
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You, sir, are one brave soul. Do you have a name for your bike? May I suggest a little "german sounding" moniker...like "Hindenburg"?:goofy:

Best of luck with that!

Cheers!

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Its a perfect stoichiometric blend of H2 and O2. If ignited it will rapidly burn and produce WATER!!!!. ...... and less unburned hydrocarbon fuel going out the exhaust port.

What are you trying to accomplish? Better mileage? More power? I never did read a clear explanation of goals.

Explain to me again how adding a stoichiometric mixture of one fuel is going to reduce the unburned portion of the primary fuel. I am not seeing the change in the amount of free oxygen available to burn off the original excess primary fuel.

Electrolizing water = 2H2O --> 2H2 + O2 (with the input of electrical energy from your motorcycle)

Combusting those gasses = 2H2 + O2 --> 2H2O (with the creation of heat energy, some of which is lost to the atmosphere)

You're converting water into gasses then converting them back into water, correct? But you've used electrical energy from your motorcycle to do it. Unfortunately you don't recieve all that power back, thanks to the SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS.

Plus, you are taking up the finite space in the cylinder that could be filled with gasoline and air and substituting in a fuel that has a lower specific energy.

It has been a long time since I have sat through a Chem lecture, so please feel free to point out any error in my understanding.

Add in the pump that you are also running and what I'm seeing is a motorcycle that is less efficient than it was before. A motorcycle that has less power than it did before. And a motorcycle that is mechanically more complicated and argueably less safe than it was before.

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Amazing stuff, John. Looking forward to ride impressions and dyno.

So it warms up slow because the HHO is a cooler burn than petrol?

You are wearing your best Nomex undies when you ride it, right? :fing02:

I've been reading up on WVO and Bio-diesel lately, going to have to have a good look at this. A colleague is right into it, I didn't understand when he explained it but it's a lot clearer now :goofy:

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Great stuff

for novices like me this sounds very volatile - hope you have fitted a fire extinguisher on the bike or near by

good luck - interested to know the dyno numbers

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Guest superchode

Add in the pump that you are also running and what I'm seeing is a motorcycle that is less efficient than it was before. A motorcycle that has less power than it did before. And a motorcycle that is mechanically more complicated and argueably less safe than it was before.

harsh. give him a chance to tidy things up and come back with some real results.

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Add in the pump that you are also running and what I'm seeing is a motorcycle that is less efficient than it was before. A motorcycle that has less power than it did before. And a motorcycle that is mechanically more complicated and argueably less safe than it was before.

harsh. give him a chance to tidy things up and come back with some real results.

Or just go and read all the scientific papers that clarify HHO gas is pseudoscience waffle.

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A friend of mine put HHO on his Caravan and reported he went from 18 mpg to something like 25 mpg. Maybe he is just driving it different?? Not sure.

Anyways, I was talking to him about it and he said he had to put something else on it to trick the computer. Something about the O2 sensor doesn't read the richened up mixture because of the HHO?? So maybe he is just running leaner now then he was, hence the increase in fuel mileage?

Not sure I would go through the trouble on the VFR for extra fuel mileage. Now my 11.5 mpg truck or 7.75 mpg motor home is a different story. dry.gif

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how will the valves, ports and exhaust fare with the contact with the water by-product?

At a guess I would think it should be a non-issue. Plenty of people out there have run water injection on engines. Makes no difference (corrosion/wear wise). If anything running water injection helps get rid of carbon build-up in the combustion chamber and exhaust valves. Think of steam cleaning something. Appearently on the tear down of water injected engines, the combustion chambers are as clean as a whistle.

Now, granted, this isn't a water injection setup. The Oxygen and the Hydrogen are seperated at the begining, but they are being recombined into water, so I should think the end product is similar. If anything I wonder if that is where the cylinder cooling claim is coming from, possibly. Water has a fairly high thermal mass, so it suckes up alot of the heat from the combustion process, flashes to steam (which if I remember correctly has expansion rate of like 1600 times - say you had one cubic inch of water and flashed it to steam, it would now occupy 1600 cubic inches) which in turn helps push the piston.

Or I could be completely wrong, because I have no idea how the extra O's and H's are going to react to the rest of the combustion process. Chemistry was never my strong suit but, I would like to see a bit more detailed explanation of what is actually happening in the combustion chamber.

I guess my problem is with this statement:

"Adding a moderate amount of Hydroxy gas to a gasoline or diesel engine, can radically change the rate of combustion in the cylinder. It accelerates the rate of combustion of the primary hydrocarbon fuel (Gas, Diesel, Ethanol, etc). This leads to more pressure on the piston on the power stroke so there is more torque, less heating of the block, and less unburned hydrocarbon fuel going out the exhaust port."

No offense, but last I checked, we really don't want to speed up the combustion process because that is what happens in detonation. A proper air/fuel ratio in a combustion chamber at the proper temperature *burns* rapidly and smoothly pushing down nicely on the piston. When it gets too hot (either through compression or a hot spot in the combustion chamber) or the A/F ratio goes too lean, the mixture detonates and literally explodes which is too sudden of a shock for the piston and rotating assembly. This is why we have higher octane fuels. To raise the ignition point of the fuel when need be.

Also it would seem by your statement that somehow by adding this extra fuel to the combustion process raises the pressure of the combustion event, but does not raise the overall temperature. That would seem to be a direct violation of Charles's Law. For a given volume, if pressure goes up, the temperature goes up. Simple as that. Heck, that's how a diesel engine works. Compress the snot out of A/F mix until it heats up to a point where it ignites on its own. No spark needed.

However. In the case of the water injection, volume goes up, pressure goes up, but the water is being used to absorb the heat - since it is not actually being combusted, less heat is transfered to the cylinder and combustion chamber. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. I'm thinking its a glorified water injection system, but I could be wrong. As is frequently the case.

As to Lee's comment about added system ineffiency - Maybe I misread it, but during one of the discussions a while back on the operation of the electrical supply system, basically it generates full power all the time, and sends left over to the R/R to be turned into waste heat anyways. If that is right, he would just be using potentially wasted energy anyways. Kind of like running a turbocharger as opposed to a supercharger.

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Jes,

I am very much interested in seeing the numbers.

Like wera, I wouldn't put this system on the bike, 'coz the ROE just doesn't pan out IMHO.

BUT my truck sure can use an improvement in MPG and it's got plenty of room to install pretty much what ever I want in the engine bay.

I've read a lot on HHO conversions and there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus. Some claim up to 300% gains in MPG, some claim 5-15% and some just say that it will kill your engine.

It looks like the 300% crowd are a bunch of lunatics while the 'kill your engine' crowd are sponsored by the oil companies.

So I would realistically expect about 5-15% gain in MPG. Dyno run would show the power gain/loss.

Can't wait for the results!

And kudos for trying this :fing02:

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Its a perfect stoichiometric blend of H2 and O2. If ignited it will rapidly burn and produce WATER!!!!. ...... and less unburned hydrocarbon fuel going out the exhaust port.

What are you trying to accomplish? Better mileage? More power? I never did read a clear explanation of goals.

Explain to me again how adding a stoichiometric mixture of one fuel is going to reduce the unburned portion of the primary fuel. I am not seeing the change in the amount of free oxygen available to burn off the original excess primary fuel.

Electrolizing water = 2H2O --> 2H2 + O2 (with the input of electrical energy from your motorcycle)

Combusting those gasses = 2H2 + O2 --> 2H2O (with the creation of heat energy, some of which is lost to the atmosphere)

You're converting water into gasses then converting them back into water, correct? But you've used electrical energy from your motorcycle to do it. Unfortunately you don't recieve all that power back, thanks to the SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS.

Plus, you are taking up the finite space in the cylinder that could be filled with gasoline and air and substituting in a fuel that has a lower specific energy.

It has been a long time since I have sat through a Chem lecture, so please feel free to point out any error in my understanding.

Add in the pump that you are also running and what I'm seeing is a motorcycle that is less efficient than it was before. A motorcycle that has less power than it did before. And a motorcycle that is mechanically more complicated and argueably less safe than it was before.

This about sums it up.

Google "Brown's Gas" for a thorough debunking.

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First off thank you one and all.

You, sir, are one brave soul. Do you have a name for your bike? May I suggest a little "german sounding" moniker...like "Hindenburg"?:fing02:

Well my teeange son wanted to name it "fawkes, the Pheonix" from the Potter series after the it was rebuilt from the hit and run two almost three years ago.

I just tend to use the military alphabet VICTOR FRANK ROMEO.

Normally I have a comment for just about everything.

This is one of those rare moments when I am speechless.

Hey I feel that way about a lot of your stuff.

I would like to see a dyno run with and without the hho

They will come.

I'm going to switch to blue color here just so that it is easier to spot my comments

Its a perfect stoichiometric blend of H2 and O2. If ignited it will rapidly burn and produce WATER!!!!. ...... and less unburned hydrocarbon fuel going out the exhaust port.

What are you trying to accomplish? Better mileage? More power? I never did read a clear explanation of goals.

Explain to me again how adding a stoichiometric mixture of one fuel is going to reduce the unburned portion of the primary fuel. I am not seeing the change in the amount of free oxygen available to burn off the original excess primary fuel.

The oxygen is there already or the o2 sensors would not have anything to "sense" and the catalytic converter would not have the oxygen it needs to finish combusting the primary fuel. My point with the monofuel statement was that it does not need any of the atmosphere that is being drawn through the intake to burn so its not taking any of the oxygen away from the primary fuel

Electrolizing water = 2H2O --> 2H2 + O2 (with the input of electrical energy from your motorcycle)

Combusting those gasses = 2H2 + O2 --> 2H2O (with the creation of heat energy lost to the atmosphere)

You're converting water into gasses then converting them back into water, correct? But you've used electrical energy from your motorcycle to do it. Unfortunately you don't receive all that power back, thanks to the SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS.

A good point and a correct one, At this point and time with the unit that I put on the VFR, I need more watts of electricity to make gas than I can get back from the gas. As some more features get worked out and added I'll get much closer to unity (that is when power in - power out. Then maybe I may be able to convert the VFR to run on hydroxy gas as the primary fuel

Plus, you are taking up the finite space in the cylinder that could be filled with gasoline and air and substituting in a fuel that has a lower specific energy.

It has been a long time since I have sat through a Chem lecture, so please feel free to point out any error in my understanding.

Add in the pump that you are also running and what I'm seeing is a motorcycle that is less efficient than it was before.

Again you make good points, but the two things to remember are what does the HHO do to the combustion of the gasoline mixture and how inefficient is the combustion of gas before.

The combustion in just about every ICE out in the world today is so slow that most of it goes out the exhaust port unburned.

That is why the government mandates catalytic converters on vehicles.

If the combustion was nearly complete when the exhaust valve opened, then there would be no hydrocarbons for the catalyst to reduce the emissions.

And don't even fool yourself into thinking that today's ices are even close to efficient, they waste the majority of the energy in gasoline.

It does take power in watts to make HHO, but the amount we need to make enough gas to effect combustion is a drop in the bucket compared to the

MegaWatts it will liberate when it accelerates the combustion.

I mean when you have 34.2 MJ of potential energy available in a liter of gasoline and a current engine only liberates about 7 MJ. If I spend a few watts (less than we use on the headlights) to release another 20-25% of the total potential within the cylinder then what's the difference. I mean if the combustion efficiency jumps to the point where we able get 14-15 MJ out of that liter of gasoline, How much will we miss the 120 watts it takes to do it?

A motorcycle that has less power than it did before.

Well I'm expecting the bike to make the same power as before or maybe a little more. Tuning with the power commander could be biased to make more power or gain more mileage. Dyno testing will give us the proof in this case.

And a motorcycle that is mechanically more complicated and argueably less safe than it was before.

I don't really see how it is so much more mechanically complicated as all I have to do to effectively return the bike to stock is pull the fuse powering the cell. As for safety issues, I've deliberately tested the backflash arrestor and it works containing the flash. The electrolyte is a non-issue as well as its of such low concentration that is at the bottom of the irritating chemicals list. the battery acid, the engine coolant, heck even the gasoline are all more irritating.

Amazing stuff, John. Looking forward to ride impressions and dyno.

So it warms up slow because the HHO is a cooler burn than petrol?

The thinking is that since the combustion is so accelerated that the combustion heat gets used to effect expansion of the gas and raise cylinder pressures, instead of having the time to transfer into the metal of piston, block and head.

You are wearing your best Nomex undies when you ride it, right? :wub:

Nope, with all the testing of the cell and the installation, I feel safe on the bike. Much safer than I would be with a huge gas cylinder at 600 Psi behind me!!

I've been reading up on WVO and Bio-diesel lately, going to have to have a good look at this. A colleague is right into it, I didn't understand when he explained it but it's a lot clearer now :fing02:

Anyone who wants more info or to join a hho forum PM me and I'll send you links for you to seed your own research

how will the valves, ports and exhaust fare with the contact with the water by-product?

the valves and ports are only going to see a bit more water vapor than they normally do and since its not condensing on those surfaces when running should not effect them. Ihe exhaust is constructed of something other than mild steel or is other wise protected internally (like its ceramic dipped) it will not be a major factor. Now that being said, my VFR exhaust is already and ugly carbuncled mess, so I won't know until I get a new header in ss (I'd lover to spring for Ti, where is toro when you need him)

Add in the pump that you are also running and what I'm seeing is a motorcycle that is less efficient than it was before. A motorcycle that has less power than it did before. And a motorcycle that is mechanically more complicated and argueably less safe than it was before.

harsh. give him a chance to tidy things up and come back with some real results.

Or just go and read all the scientific papers that clarify HHO gas is pseudoscience waffle.

I read a lot of that and there are a lot of Con-men, Charlatans and just plain honest idiots out there.

So designs are over driven and make steam not HHO gas. Some use materials that leech out toxins that poison the gas produced. Some just make pretty bubbles that won't even burn because of what the doped the water with.

There is a lot of crap out there and anyone interested in this needs to be careful and try to get either a vet'ed design or buy kit from a valid company.

HHO gas is not a scam, water can be separated into H2 and O2 and then burned to release energy. This combustion process can have positive effects on other fuels and make for more effect combustion in them as well.

Seeing that article on elsevier site is interesting since the also have peer reviewed articles like this one Peer review

A friend of mine put HHO on his Caravan and reported he went from 18 mpg to something like 25 mpg. Maybe he is just driving it different?? Not sure.

Anyways, I was talking to him about it and he said he had to put something else on it to trick the computer. Something about the O2 sensor doesn't read the richened up mixture because of the HHO?? So maybe he is just running leaner now then he was, hence the increase in fuel mileage?

Not sure I would go through the trouble on the VFR for extra fuel mileage. Now my 11.5 mpg truck or 7.75 mpg motor home is a different story. dry.gif

Well, I'm sure that anyone who puts a unit like this on their vehicle rides (or drives) it differently. That's just human nature, but over the long term a person will fall back to their normal driving style.

What happens when you install an HHO cell on a modern EFI vehicle (and by modern, I mean any OEM EFI system that uses an o2 sensor and is either OBD I or OBD II equipped), is that since the combustion is so much more complete the O2 sensor gives a reading that is read as lean. This false lean reading (I say false lean because the initially the same amount of fuel has been sent to the cylinder with the same amount of air, but is it more completely completely burned so the resulting exhaust is different) causes the ecm to start adding fuel to the mixture to get back to its target value.

Yeah, the computer is actually programmed to dial the mixture back to a particular level of emissions and waste.

In order to stop this you have to do something to alter the either the computers allowed fuel ratios (with a chip or reflash fuel map), intercept/alter the signal of the o2 sensor itself or install a power commander type device between the computer and the fuel injectors to override the fuel demands of the pcm.

On my bike I'm using the power commander.

When I fit the next cell on my wife's car, I will use a reflash tool to change the ecm's mapping.

And I put it on the VFR for 3 reasons, one to show that this technology does not have to enormous to work, two to show that even a bike can benefit from it and last because my bike is my primary vehicle.

I'm sure that you would see noticable gains on your truck and on your RV the larger version of this cell (I have the 5x5 inch plate sized unit, but there is an 8x8 size unit as well).

be sure to bring your ear plugs if you get the chance to see this cell demonstrated.

Edited by JES_VFR
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Great !!!! Keep pushing forward on your ideas....ignore the doubters.....go to you tube and watch "The Power of Dreams" , failure is the key to success .....realize you can never fail, many prototypes & problems sure but eventually you will get there.

Thinking this way is THE KEY to HONDA DEVELOPMENT. Best Wishes on your project...remember Mother HONDA had millions of set backs just to get that 2 wheeled machine in your driveway, they did not quit. When I ride I am always thinking "what an amazing machine" We all get to enjoy the benefits of these machines, we just turn the key and go....nobody thinks about the thousand of hours it took to design something. Good Luck, I am with you, now get back to work, DOUG

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As some more features get worked out and added I'll get much closer to unity (that is when power in - power out. Then maybe I may be able to convert the VFR to run on hydroxy gas as the primary fuel

So you are going to make HHO from electrolysis, the electricity supplied by the burning HHO? comp13.gif

Ya know, there are laws against this sort of thing

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As some more features get worked out and added I'll get much closer to unity (that is when power in - power out. Then maybe I may be able to convert the VFR to run on hydroxy gas as the primary fuel

So you are going to make HHO from electrolysis, the electricity supplied by the burning HHO? comp13.gif

Ya know, there are laws against this sort of thing

I have to agree with this one, a pure hydroxy system could never work even if you COULD achieve 100% efficiency in making hydroxy out of electricity then burning it to make electricity since you would need greater than 100% efficiency to have power left over to actually move the bike. As a system that uses electricity that the bike is throwing away and then taking that byproduct to improve combustion I find it very intriguing. But to run the bike on hydroxy and then make the hydroxy with the electrical system would be a perpetual motion machine that keeps going faster and faster (one of my favorite simpson's moments.)

Where are you mounting a water supply? I didn't see that in your pictures.

Good luck!

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