Member Contributer Rice Posted December 13, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted December 13, 2010 Thanks for the update. Waiting anxiously for the next installment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trace Posted December 13, 2010 Share Posted December 13, 2010 JES, Thanks for the update, and appreciate your willingness to step back into this controversial subject. Just an FYI, my 2000 gets a consistent and carefully calculated 44 mpg with a 45 tooth sprocket. By "carefully calculated", I mean that my speedo is exactly correct using a speedohealer, and that my odo is exactly 11 percent low as a result of that correction. Thus, I crank 11% into my odo miles when gassing up. Plus, I use traveling mate's mileage at gas stops as a comparision/validation of miles traveled. Anyway, it always comes out to 44 mpg over the last 5 years during fairly hard highway running. And my gas-pig RC51 gets 31 mpg doing the very same runs from Florida to Franklin NC and back! :pissed: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted December 14, 2010 Author Share Posted December 14, 2010 Thanks for the update, John. I will repeat one of a previous posters comments, and say that you doing a project such as this, can not possibly lose, Even a negative result, will be a win for you. It appears that all the problems you are having are not a product of the technology you are trying, but rather a product of your method, which is mostly governed by your small research budget. Keep up the great work. looking forward to your next installment Tom That is exactly the situation. If the funding had become available sooner, than several projects would be further along. But so far a lot of my materials have been paid for by me. So we are creeping forward at a snails pace, That is why I really need everyone to help me by voting in this round of the Pepsi Refresh Everything Challenge The vote doesn't cost you anything, You can vote for the project everyday. What do you have to lose?? a couple of minutes a day on line. What do you have to gain?? The launching of a project to free the world from oil addiction and slavery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted December 14, 2010 Author Share Posted December 14, 2010 Before you tear down your current setup, you've got an opportunity to collect more data and prepare for gen 2. If you can get your current setup stable, you'll learn a lot more and save effort in the long run. It's OK for now if you can't run over rough roads (maybe tough to find in New Jersey, eh?). - You've already seen the level of doubt so you'll have to have bombproof data to back you up. If you're just doing it for yourself, then you should be your own worst critic. - Get a baseline on fuel consumption post PCV install, pre Brown's gas. Make sure your bike is in excellent working order. - This science stuff is tough work, you've got to make just as many runs on the unmodified setup as you're making with the generator going. Hit the pike and figure out a circuit, you need to show that you can achieve consistent results on the unmodified bike. - It would be good to do some A/B comparisons. Can you easily switch the generator on/off without affecting the bike's operation? You need to show repeatability - so going back and forth several times under identical conditions is important. Well, I took to calling this configuration "install 2.2" as the second install was close but there had not been time to do it quite right. As for gathering data, I'll be doing that until I have some thing much better to install. With the shock preload handled and the current tray shape, I can handle any road that the stock bike could. I get blasted daily by doubters, hecklers and disrupters on the one hydrogen fuel forum, so the doubt is constant criticism is nothing new. As for getting a baseline with the PCV, and then data with the PCV plus the gas running, I'm working on it. The gas does alter the trim changes the Autotune wants to make compared to just burning gasoline. Its going to be a struggle to generate apples to apples datasets, but I'm working on it Also I don't want to be on to regular a route as that might attract the Staties (I know I have heavy hand). I can switch the generator on/off easily by just pulling a fuse but idle goes up about 300 rpm when the generator is running and throttle response is sharper everywhere. So again apples to apples comparison is a bit of a challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trace Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 What do you have to gain?? The launching of a project to free the world from oil addiction and slavery. That is absolute bullshit statement and you should be ashamed of yourself. THAT is why I resurrected this thread....to expose this crazy political nonsense that blindly supports "capitalist oil conspiracy theory"....yet attacks anyone who points out the decades of scientific work that has totally debunked the Brown's Gas Conspiracy is infuriating and baffling. Slavery? Oil addiction? Those are big words and have no place here, especially after I [me, Trace] got pounded for bringing this nutbag topic back for inspection by the membership and wondering about your (lack of) progress. I asked for an update, and we got more political spin instead of results. How DARE you shill for your own Pepsi project, asking your fellow VFRD members to vote for you regardless of the merits of your project. Ahhhh...I see. If MONEY goes toward your cause it's okay. If it goes to Exxon....it's evil. Slave oil? No. HHO snake oil? Yes. Welcome to the Matrix, but I'll stick to the Blue Pill, thanks. :lurk: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted December 14, 2010 Author Share Posted December 14, 2010 JES, Thanks for the update, and appreciate your willingness to step back into this controversial subject. Just an FYI, my 2000 gets a consistent and carefully calculated 44 mpg with a 45 tooth sprocket. By "carefully calculated", I mean that my speedo is exactly correct using a speedohealer, and that my odo is exactly 11 percent low as a result of that correction. Thus, I crank 11% into my odo miles when gassing up. Plus, I use traveling mate's mileage at gas stops as a comparision/validation of miles traveled. Anyway, it always comes out to 44 mpg over the last 5 years during fairly hard highway running. And my gas-pig RC51 gets 31 mpg doing the very same runs from Florida to Franklin NC and back! :pissed: Well maybe I should get you up here to be my pacer as I freely admit that I was hammering along on when on the slab on both these trips. I pack heavily for these rides and really need to make sure I have time to thin out the luggage. past rides with similar loads have netted 37-39 mpg averages, So the 42-46 mpg numbers I got on the wdgah ride with an flaky R&R are better than normal. I still have tuning to do, so I expect to get better, but I also know I have to back off as well. That's why I say I need a pacer to run with. Someone to keep me from just saying the hell with it this curve is calling for 95mph and going for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee 2002 Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 In before the lock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted December 14, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted December 14, 2010 In before the lock. :laughing6-hehe: as long the politics keep on a low level, this thread may continue...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer TheBigCheese Posted December 14, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted December 14, 2010 The gas does alter the trim changes the Autotune wants to make compared to just burning gasoline. That will make your job harder, you need to compare optimized to optimized. Fortunately the PCV can switch between two maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee 2002 Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 In before the lock. as long the politics keep on a low level, this thread may continue...... Turns out I wasn't "In Before the Lock" ..... I was "In Before the MAJOR Editorial Revision." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rice Posted December 14, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted December 14, 2010 What do you have to gain?? The launching of a project to free the world from oil addiction and slavery. That is absolute bullshit statement and you should be ashamed of yourself. THAT is why I resurrected this thread....to expose this crazy political nonsense that blindly supports "capitalist oil conspiracy theory"....yet attacks anyone who points out the decades of scientific work that has totally debunked the Brown's Gas Conspiracy is infuriating and baffling. Slavery? Oil addiction? Those are big words and have no place here, especially after I [me, Trace] got pounded for bringing this nutbag topic back for inspection by the membership and wondering about your (lack of) progress. I asked for an update, and we got more political spin instead of results. How DARE you shill for your own Pepsi project, asking your fellow VFRD members to vote for you regardless of the merits of your project. Ahhhh...I see. If MONEY goes toward your cause it's okay. If it goes to Exxon....it's evil. Slave oil? No. HHO snake oil? Yes. Welcome to the Matrix, but I'll stick to the Blue Pill, thanks. :lurk: I'd say something here, but I'm not looking for one of these... :laughing6-hehe: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V4 Rosso Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 On what trace said (both versions :biggrin: ) John, when I search for some sientific data that backs up all the claims I only find websites that say: Hydrogen Injection -The technology of using hydrogen as a combustion enhancement in internal combustion engines has been researched and proven for many years. The benefits are factual and well documented. Do you have any links that point to some scientific studies that contain factual data? The use of hydroxy boosters has been studied since WW1 but most of the researches come up with youtube vids to show how well their system works. Haha, holding a white pice of paper close to the exhaust pipe and claiming (i'll translate here) it spits out zero soot, zero CO, zero HC and 30% fuel saving and CO2 reduction! Instead of backing up claims by mentionig mpg and holding white pieces of paper near the exhaust pipe, why not put the engine on a dynometer or sticking an exhaust gas analiser in the can? What is different about your setup compared to the kits allready available on the market that justifies spending $250.000 in R&D? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted December 14, 2010 Author Share Posted December 14, 2010 What do you have to gain?? The launching of a project to free the world from oil addiction and slavery. That is absolute bullshit statement and you should be ashamed of yourself. THAT is why I resurrected this thread....to expose this crazy political nonsense that blindly supports "capitalist oil conspiracy theory"....yet attacks anyone who points out the decades of scientific work that has totally debunked the Brown's Gas Conspiracy is infuriating and baffling. Slavery? Oil addiction? Those are big words and have no place here, especially after I [me, Trace] got pounded for bringing this nutbag topic back for inspection by the membership and wondering about your (lack of) progress. I asked for an update, and we got more political spin instead of results. How DARE you shill for your own Pepsi project, asking your fellow VFRD members to vote for you regardless of the merits of your project. Ahhhh...I see. If MONEY goes toward your cause it's okay. If it goes to Exxon....it's evil. Slave oil? No. HHO snake oil? Yes. Welcome to the Matrix, but I'll stick to the Blue Pill, thanks. :lurk: Whoa, just a minute, I did not say that Exxon was evil. What I said was that this world is addicted to gasoline and diesel. And it is, I mean how many LPG fueled IC engines, particularly in vehicles and equipment do you own? How many do you see? How many fueled are with CNG, Methane, Methanol or LNG? For most people everything from their vehicles on down to their string trimmers, are powered with gasoline or diesel. We as a world are addicted to Gasoline and Diesel. I'm not talking about "Big Oil's Evil agenda", I wasn't discussing the state of politics. I have no comment on the supposed MIB's. No politics where involved in that comment Trace. My only point is that the human race is addicted to petroleum as an energy source and any addiction makes the user a slave to the source of the addiction. The oil that is in the earth is not going to last forever, nor can the Natural gas, or even the coal, if we continue to power the transportation all over the world with it. It doesn't matter what I think of the government or the oil companies in this case, I'm talking about the human race and our major fuel source is going to run out. We need to find another source of power, and since I have yet to see a Mr. Fusion reactor that can fit in a vehicle to power it, I'm trying to develop another alternative. I delivered an update that detailed the creeping rate of progress that I have had. I'll be the first to admit that I'm particularly frustrated with the lack of good data, Part of that was the installation issues, part the lack of funds hindering every step of the way, part of it was me being inconsistent with my riding. But it was a full update none the less. I can boil it all down and say that at this point, If I did no further tuning, I've achieved about a 20% increase in mileage. However, I'm convinced that this is not the most optimized tune, nor is the cell production maxed out either. I'm certain I can make more gas and go leaner, probably even a bit past stoichiometric as "interpreted" by the wideband o2 sensor in the OEM exhaust bung. It was 19F outside this morning, so its not like its great weather for mileage tests either. General condition and maintenance of the VFR adds another issue as the exhaust header is just about gone and even if I get the Delkevic header, I'll have to get a new bung welded in. I know that the update was not full of great data, but I did want to let you all know were the testing was. The gas does alter the trim changes the Autotune wants to make compared to just burning gasoline. That will make your job harder, you need to compare optimized to optimized. Fortunately the PCV can switch between two maps. Not on the fly with the AutoModule plugged in, it cannot. The terminals on the side of the case to switch with and the memory that you would use to store the second map are used by the autotune module. So, first I have ride the bike enough with a set of trims in the autotune to develop a good map, which can take a bunch of miles. Then, save that set of trims off on a laptop and start over again with a set of trims for running with HHO. Once those too sets of maps are made, I'd have ride a loop with one map, then ride the same loop with the second map, hoping that all the external conditions are the same. As soon as I get some funds, I'll make a trek to a dyno and try to get a set of trims put together for each. On what trace said (both versions :biggrin: ) John, when I search for some scientific data that backs up all the claims I only find websites that say: Hydrogen Injection -The technology of using hydrogen as a combustion enhancement in internal combustion engines has been researched and proven for many years. The benefits are factual and well documented. Do you have any links that point to some scientific studies that contain factual data? The use of hydroxy boosters has been studied since WW1 but most of the researches come up with youtube vids to show how well their system works. Haha, holding a white pice of paper close to the exhaust pipe and claiming (i'll translate here) it spits out zero soot, zero CO, zero HC and 30% fuel saving and CO2 reduction! Instead of backing up claims by mentionig mpg and holding white pieces of paper near the exhaust pipe, why not put the engine on a dynometer or sticking an exhaust gas analiser in the can? What is different about your setup compared to the kits already available on the market that justifies spending $250.000 in R&D? Well I have not been able to test my emissions on my bike yet, That is another reason to get to dyno with a gas analyzer. But, I do have a couple of documents from independent testers on cars running gas and diesel. They have mileage and emissions data, particularly since it is easier to get support for an emissions reducing device, than you can an alternative fuel system. the latest one I have came to me from a peer in the hho industry, as proof of how good his new design is. I don't have spot to post this word document, but the data is not mine so I have no bias for it, and the testing was done by and independent group instead of the manufacturer. They did use a portable exhaust tester, so they have readings while driving around as well as the consumption figures. If someone has space to host it, I'll send you this document, plus a couple older ones and then we can link to these. Now, you asked what makes this project different from the already existing Boosters out there, These boosters (even the cell on my bike) are only able to improve the combustion of gasoline and diesel. They don't produce enough gas, to run the engines on their own, So, they are not able to eliminate the need for petroleum them altogether. That is the next step, removing the gasoline and diesel fuels all together AND that is where this project comes in. Its much more than just a Hydroxy booster. The basic design is three parts. 1. A EV Conversion with on board electric generation (much like a diesel/electric locomotive). Only we won't have batteries and all their issues (weight, charging, life-cycle, disposal, fire, etc). Range will be far greater than an EV today, and even better than most petroleum powered vehicles. 2. The GenSet will have an very efficient rotary generator head driven by an efficient constant speed IC running on a mixture of HHO and ethanol, Thus removing use of gasoline or diesel as an energy source. 3. A low energy use, ethanol production station will be finalized that will break down Cellulose and Lignin into sugars for fermentation into ethanol. As a part of this process a "no-heat" distillation methodology will remove the water from the fuel to achieve the proof required for fuel grade ethanol. No food stocks will be effected by this system. In fact, only the garbage stream to the landfills will be affected. It will be scalable, so that home stations are planned as well as larger units for fleets and consumer roadside stations. So its a complete package, not just a booster kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted December 14, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted December 14, 2010 We as a world are addicted to Gasoline and Diesel. I don't buy this at all - we're on the process of moving away from oil dependency at this very moment. You need to step forward hundreds of years mate, and look at it from the perspective of the people in the future. You know what they'll say? They'll say this: "Hey remember how the world used to power everything off oil?" "Yeah, but only for about a hundred years. That's nothing!" I'm sure you feel like you're contributing to the process, but unless you have some serious knowledge of chemistry and physics you're pissing against the wall mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted December 14, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted December 14, 2010 , you're pissing against the wall mate. Which may not be all bad................... http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/news/2009/july/02070902.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trace Posted December 15, 2010 Share Posted December 15, 2010 I'm not talking about "Big Oil's Evil agenda", I wasn't discussing the state of politics. I have no comment on the supposed MIB's. No politics where involved in that comment, Trace. My only point is that the human race is addicted to petroleum as an energy source and any addiction makes the user a slave to the source of the addiction. The oil that is in the earth is not going to last forever, nor can the Natural gas, or even the coal, if we continue to power the transportation all over the world with it. It doesn't matter what I think of the government or the oil companies in this case, I'm talking about the human race and our major fuel source is going to run out. We need to find another source of power, and since I have yet to see a Mr. Fusion reactor that can fit in a vehicle to power it, I'm trying to develop another alternative. Okay, okay, okay JES.... how about a truce? If you and your loyal supporters leave behind the leftist, apocolyptic, conspiracy-piracy-theory-MIB-Matrix spoutings of this TECHNICAL DISCUSSION about the merits or lack thereof of HHO, I'll butt-out with my criticism and chain-yanking from the sidelines. It is because of my pro-capitalist, anti-global warming, anti-New World Order, anti-Michael Moore, anti-Al Gore stance that I simply can't let unfounded opinions about the future of oil and energy policy go unchallenged on this forum. When myths go unchallenged for too long, they begin to eclipse the truth. Thus I had to go on the offensive to put some records straight or at least question the liberal politics that have invaded your "Cooking With Hydrogen" thread. So.....why don't we ALL leave politics out of this, as it serves no purpose. We can agree to disagree about the future of the planet and where HHO fits into it. Hell, I'll even stop picking on HHO as being junk science and sit back to see your eventual results! Let us allow the technical chips to fall where they may. Sound reasonable? As for the future of electrical power generation for the Rest Of All Time Of Earth....learn what you can about Traveling Wave Reactors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling_wave_reactor Lots and lots of science involved there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted December 15, 2010 Author Share Posted December 15, 2010 Okay, okay, okay JES.... how about a truce? If you and your loyal supporters leave behind the leftist, apocolyptic, conspiracy-piracy-theory-MIB-Matrix spoutings out of this TECHNICAL DISCUSSION about the merits or lack thereof of HHO, I'll butt-out with my criticism and chain-yanking from the sidelines. It is because of my pro-capitalist, anti-global warming, anti-New World Order, anti-Michael Moore, anti-Al Gore stance that I simply can't let unfounded opinions about the future of oil go unchallenged on this forum. When myths go unchallenged for too long, they begin to eclipse the truth. Thus I had to go on the offensive to put some records straight or at least question the liberal politics that have invaded your "Cooking With Hydrogen" thread. So.....why don't we ALL leave politics out of this, as it serves no purpose. We can agree to disagree about the future of the planet and where HHO fits into it. Hell, I'll even stop picking on HHO as being junk science and sit back to see your eventual results! Let us allow the technical chips to fall where they may. Sound reasonable? As for the future of electrical power generation for the Rest Of All Time Of Earth....learn what you can about Traveling Wave Reactors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling_wave_reactor Lots and lots of science involved there! For the record, I don't have any control over the people that post here. The only person I control is myself. I only wanted to clarify my point that, I feel we still depend too much on oil for our energy. I wasn't going anywhere near the politics of oil, not at the local level, state, federal or global levels. I wholeheartedly want to keep this thread as technical as possible. For the record, my one exterior electronic thermometer records the highs and lows for the last 24 hours. At 0830 this morning, it had recorded an overnight low of 15 F, after only a high of 36F. That prompted me to go out to the garage and check the fluid in the bubbler/conditioner. It was still liquid, which was good since it had been a while since I had last filled it with a 50/50 windshield washer and distilled water mix, I don't know if the bubbling action vaporizes any of the anti-freeze elements of the fluid or not. If it had frozen, I would have had to thaw it out. Fortunately it was okay, so the electrolyte should be okay as well. If the roads seem okay tomorrow, I may attempt a ride to King of Prussia. I doubt the new R&R will have any trouble staying cool with all that metal to try and heat up. As for the chemistry and the physics of the process, I have the help of a guy with both Batchelor's and Master's degrees in Mechanical engineering specifically Internal combustion. He's published some works on Hydrogen's effects on combustion. Now that was straight hydrogen not Hydroxy, He's doing more research into separated gas electrolysis and Hydrogen Ionization effects. He tells me what we need the system to do, Dustin and I design to match his equations and then I get to make it a mass production ready design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer TheBigCheese Posted December 15, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted December 15, 2010 The gas does alter the trim changes the Autotune wants to make compared to just burning gasoline. That will make your job harder, you need to compare optimized to optimized. Fortunately the PCV can switch between two maps. Not on the fly with the AutoModule plugged in, it cannot. The terminals on the side of the case to switch with and the memory that you would use to store the second map are used by the autotune module. So, first I have ride the bike enough with a set of trims in the autotune to develop a good map, which can take a bunch of miles. Then, save that set of trims off on a laptop and start over again with a set of trims for running with HHO. Once those too sets of maps are made, I'd have ride a loop with one map, then ride the same loop with the second map, hoping that all the external conditions are the same. As soon as I get some funds, I'll make a trek to a dyno and try to get a set of trims put together for each. So it will be even harder than I thought. Good luck, but this is just too painful to watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Not much to report here, as the roads around here are just getting back to rideable. I had to repair one of the terminals in the VFR's pcm connector as the tab on it was broken, So the wire kept coming out of the connector, triggering the FI light. I found a close match to the Honda terminal, in a surplus stereo installation kit. It was for a Pioneer radio to patch into a oem amp system. The socket was the correct size to connect with the pins in the pcm, but is was just a little bit shorter. Since that was not a problem once it snapped into the pcm, I chose to go with it. One little soldered splice and a bit of heat shrink later, the FI light is gone. No more wedging fingers up under right side of the seat cowl and blindly pressing at the connector to "fix" the problem. FIXED.. But the circulating pump was blowing fuses, Something was wrong with the wire where it enters the pump. It has no real strain relief designed into the case, so all the fiddling around the pump, and with it, caused some internal short. I got another pump from a marine supply (as they seem to be the only ones that stock the all plastic bodied versions of these pumps) and installed it with a molex two pin connector. Still no strain relief on the pump body for the wires (and I may put some RTV around it), but now the pump won't ever end up hanging on its wiring. This weekend I hope will be the one to break the cabin fever and start rubbing off the rust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aselleck Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 You can run a SWPWM (square wave pulse width modulator) to make it run at the efficiency to make it reasonable. Im going to build one for my truck this summer and once a buy an old concours I'll build one for it too. Im shooting for no more than 10 amps on the one for my truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakedViffer Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 I vote to ban Aselleck for bringing back this monstrosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted April 7, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted April 7, 2012 Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder........................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V4 Rosso Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 I once tried to surf square waves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee 2002 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 One year and twenty days. Life is good again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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