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sfdownhill

New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

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Well stated Boozie.

 

I'm not thinking this will be a problem. For a couple of reasons.

1. The sensor tip won't be at the low point.

 

It is level, yes, but it's not at the bottom of the pipe and that's not the place the pipe will get a puddle in heavy condensation conditions. Above centerline is optimal, but what you really don't want is for the sensor tip to be where condensation can build up and enter the holes. I think that bung is high enough on the pipe that horizontal is not a problem.

 

2. Those sensors have a heater on them.

 

They're not like the olden days sensors where they rely on the exhaust heat to warm them up.

 

3. Those sensors really aren't used by a lot of us.

 

PCIII users unplug them and put a resistor in to simulate the heater coil and tune off of that.  3 hole guys like me, running Rapidbike with the wideband, flip on the RBo2 Active anyway, which spoofs the signal. If those aren't working optimally after 30K miles, for PcIII or My Tuning Bike users, no harm no foul.

 

All they do is tell the ECU when you're in steady state anyway so it can lean off the fuel and make the bike run like shit when cruising, causing you to have to roll on the throttle, which takes it out of lean mode and surges... fuck I hate that "feature" from Honda. Anyway, I think the only people who will actually use them will be rapidbike guys without MTB. Everyone else unplugs them or overrides them.

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Delicious!  Looks like the mock up is gonna work with some fenagling.  might have to get creative with some pig-iron to semi-permanently scoot the brake lines out of the way.  

Have you guys tried a service?  

AKA being able to get the oil filter out with most of the fairings on?

It's a pita with the baby header  😬

 

If it's at all possible maybe you could push the shifter-side primary a wee lil closer to the block for a bit so you can easily get the filter inbetween the inner-fairing stay and the primary.  it'd make service life a HELLUVA lot easier than stock.

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The normal positioning of O2 sensors, from the Bosch documentation, is that they should be a minimum of 10 degrees above the horizontal centreline.  See below:

image.png.bb297a66c4bb9487bf0420c50eae23fc.png

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I'm probably wasting my time saying this but here we go anyway:  I have about a decade of experience with motorcycle fuel injection systems that use Bosch wide band O2 sensors mounted at a level angle.  On both of my do-it-yourself fuel injection motorcycles it turned out that I needed/wanted to mount the O2 sensor at a level angle.

 

So 10 years ago when I was building up my first FI motorcycle I was asking/worrying about this exact issue.  I ended up having the opportunity to have a back-and-forth email dialog with a couple of Bosch engineers from the division that produces these sensors.  You wouldn't believe how unconcerned these two guys were about the effect of mounting one of their O2 sensors at a level angle.  They basically said that the "mounting recommendation" drawing was produced because it had to be done, a requirement demanded by the management. 

 

Their opinion was that as long as you don't mount the sensor at a downward angle you won't have any problems.  My experience with my FI project motorcycles bears this out, no problems at all.  Every so often I remove the sensor from the bung to do a "free air" recalibration of the O2 system and the sensor always looks good, just light carbon coating that you would expect.

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I understand that I might be asking a lot here... but is there a chance of doing a test fit of the new 8th gen header prototype on a 6th gen before they go into production?

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1 hour ago, SEBSPEED said:

I understand that I might be asking a lot here... but is there a chance of doing a test fit of the new 8th gen header prototype on a 6th gen before they go into production?

 

A 6 gen fitment of the 8 gen exhaust is a great idea. The only obstacle is near-term availability of a  6 gen for this test. I'd be happy to take a 6 gen with me when I take the 8 gen up for final pre-dyno fitment, but the two 6 gens we have easy access to are Hammerdrill's, which is now totally dialed and dyno tuned with the new headers, and Duc2V4's, which is his 'daily driver' - it gets him to work projects all around socal and he can't afford for it to have a few days of downtime. We'd be open to any other 6 gen loaner on which to test fit the 8 gen headers. But we are deep in 5 gens, with four on hand.

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25 minutes ago, SEBSPEED said:

I understand that I might be asking a lot here... but is there a chance of doing a test fit of the new 8th gen header prototype on a 6th gen before they go into production?

I'm with Seb on that.

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DYNODAY II : V4 GOES VTECH!!

 

This is VFRD member Hammerdrill's 6 gen. It has all these components in black: forks, rotor carriers, frame, OEM mufflers, swingarm, drive hub, footpegs, radiators, etc. In the middle it has Sebspeed's clutch cover, up top it has an 8 gen cockpit [bars and triple clamps] and deeply red R157 bodywork. All this black and gold pops with contrasting with pearl white wheels. I can't get enough of this bike. And it's not just a pretty face, it runs and handles great, as it is suspended by a full DMr suspension that Jamie built for Hammerdrill's weight and riding style, and has a Power Commander V smoothing out the fueling.

932318746_Niels6gen2.thumb.JPG.a96fabf2162a89ff7bf5e0a5f294110b.JPG

1874055054_Niels6gen3.thumb.JPG.55053e72a00401919e9445a943f22b85.JPG

 

So raises the eternal question - what next mod would benefit this motorcycle and keep us out of trouble for at least a short while?

 

Answer: Put it on the dyno! Get a baseline, then put new headers on it and tune the living heck out of it. So we did.

 

Wednesday April 10, we showed up at Attack Performance prepared. We had test fit the headers two weeks prior, and brought all the accoutrements we'd need to put the bike in Jozef's capable hands for baseline and tune.

1590578346_6gendyno1.thumb.jpg.49e2db6f20f7e53aa3349826bd6ee28f.jpg

904850119_6gendyno3.thumb.jpg.880994fdde7ec60dabff7e373263945b.jpg

 

I've made myself late here, so will slam up dyno charts and try to explain my way out of the ticket later.

[Who can figure out the lean spike in AFR between 10k and 10.5k rpm?]

 

6 gen baseline with zero map in PCV compared to middle graph w new headers and zero map in PCV, compared to top graph after full tune:

72396314_Attack6gencomparison041019.thumb.jpg.1e61f031741df239659eeac8bf08d335.jpg

 

Here is the same comparison with a midrange reference line:

1715118063_Attack6genmidrangecomparison041019.thumb.jpg.0cd03bdd3d32a8ca0eed7dde6910267f.jpg

 

Conditions on the day [All runs occurred same day]:

231238466_Attack6gencomparisonconditions.thumb.jpg.67371c1584307c5f51d66265fe81bfc0.jpg

 

 

Comparison of tuned 6 gen to tuned 5 gen, both tuned with the new headers:

1742622582_Attack6genvs5gen041019.thumb.jpg.8c7e6f841757f3753daba758259e669d.jpg

 

6 gen vs 5 gen conditions:

709811309_Attack6genvs5genconditions041019.thumb.jpg.d3c5b339d218ef503ce299864b942cf3.jpg

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, sfdownhill said:

 

A 6 gen fitment of the 8 gen exhaust is a great idea. The only obstacle is near-term availability of a  6 gen for this test. I'd be happy to take a 6 gen with me when I take the 8 gen up for final pre-dyno fitment, but the two 6 gens we have easy access to are Hammerdrill's, which is now totally dialed and dyno tuned with the new headers, and Duc2V4's, which is his 'daily driver' - it gets him to work projects all around socal and he can't afford for it to have a few days of downtime. We'd be open to any other 6 gen loaner on which to test fit the 8 gen headers. But we are deep in 5 gens, with four on hand.

 

6th would be ideal, but fit to a 5th would suffice for my purposes, which is to run a lower front rad on my Torocharged 6th gen. 

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40 minutes ago, SEBSPEED said:

6th would be ideal, but fit to a 5th would suffice for my purposes, which is to run a lower front rad on my Torocharged 6th gen. 

 

You and all the other guys with supercharged 6 gens!

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4 hours ago, GreginDenver said:

I'm probably wasting my time saying this but here we go anyway:  I have about a decade of experience with motorcycle fuel injection systems that use Bosch wide band O2 sensors mounted at a level angle.  On both of my do-it-yourself fuel injection motorcycles it turned out that I needed/wanted to mount the O2 sensor at a level angle.

 

So 10 years ago when I was building up my first FI motorcycle I was asking/worrying about this exact issue.  I ended up having the opportunity to have a back-and-forth email dialog with a couple of Bosch engineers from the division that produces these sensors.  You wouldn't believe how unconcerned these two guys were about the effect of mounting one of their O2 sensors at a level angle.  They basically said that the "mounting recommendation" drawing was produced because it had to be done, a requirement demanded by the management. 

 

Their opinion was that as long as you don't mount the sensor at a downward angle you won't have any problems.  My experience with my FI project motorcycles bears this out, no problems at all.  Every so often I remove the sensor from the bung to do a "free air" recalibration of the O2 system and the sensor always looks good, just light carbon coating that you would expect.

Im thinking that a downward angle is needed so that if there is moisture on the sensor and the bike is hibernating, then the water can drip off.

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So... looking at the charts it's the same. 5 easy horsepower. 10% HP possible, 7-8% torque.  Good numbers

 

I'm betting the bike feels great with that tune, and the bottom end looks good, too.   Could probably grab another HP or two with some ignition mapping, too.

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2 minutes ago, boOZZIE said:

Im thinking that a downward angle is needed so that if there is moisture on the sensor and the bike is hibernating, then the water can drip off.

That's the theory.

 

But, practically, you just don't want it to stick out the bottom so water can pool on the sensor. As long as it is above the bottom you'll be fine.  I'm seriously not worried, and Greg having talked to Bosch engineers just puts me more at ease.

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Hey sfdownhill, 

Has anyone done a video of those music makers 😆

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6th would be ideal, but fit to a 5th would suffice for my purposes, which is to run a lower front rad on my Torocharged 6th gen. 


Quote me one of those when your finished fabricating

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it would be a cheaper road to fab a turbokit from a GSXR600 to the VFR.  and it would be a monster for quick spooling afterwards.

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it would be a cheaper road to fab a turbokit from a GSXR600 to the VFR.  and it would be a monster for quick spooling afterwards.
Unless I'm only in need of the radiator...
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36 minutes ago, MooseMoose said:

So... looking at the charts it's the same. 5 easy horsepower. 10% HP possible, 7-8% torque.  Good numbers

 

I'm betting the bike feels great with that tune, and the bottom end looks good, too.   Could probably grab another HP or two with some ignition mapping, too.

 Yep - Hammerdrill only lives 6 miles from Attack, so he rode his VFR to and from the session. After he got home he texted “Hey! Now I can wheelie on this bike!”

 

And dang! Forgot about ignition mapping and how it helps the 6 gen. Does PCV have ignition mapping onboard, or does it require an add-on module?

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41 minutes ago, boOZZIE said:

Hey sfdownhill, 

Has anyone done a video of those music makers 😆

 

We barely got the mufflers done in time, but we’d already test fit them two weeks ago after gutting them, before working on their internals. They will be finished in black and have black OEM heatshields trimmed and bead rolled to wrap around the trailing edges of the mufflers. Muffler mod will be covered in a separate thread.

 

 

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Back on the 8th Gen headers

Someone mentioned that the front pipes merge together and so do the rears.  That is correct.  Look at this

 

image.png.e3e0e40fb4d8c8cc06227a58ff1762de.png

 

In my opinion Honda have gone on a cost saving drive with this and it is all about reducing costs in the pipes.

A single O2 sensor and crap merges.

 

The firing order is still the same between 5th, 6th and 8th Gen so our performance pipes will possible make a bigger gain on the 8th Gen

 

Just my opinion.

Phil

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1 hour ago, sfdownhill said:

 Yep - Hammerdrill only lives 6 miles from Attack, so he rode his VFR to and from the session. After he got home he texted “Hey! Now I can wheelie on this bike!”

 

 

 

hah, Awesome!  Exactly the but dyno results we'd expect from those charts. It's between 5 and 10% pretty much everywhere from midrange up. Very nice charts, at least as exciting as the 5th gen runs.

 

Quote

And dang! Forgot about ignition mapping and how it helps the 6 gen. Does PCV have ignition mapping onboard, or does it require an add-on module?

I don't know for sure about PCV.   Rapid Bike Racing does for sure, I think PCV can do it, too, but I don't have first hand experience.  And rumor has it there is a lot of advance to play with on the 6th gens. It'll be fun to see a chart if anyone is willing to play with the advance after getting their headers.

 

 

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PCV requires an ignition module.  Not sure if it is even compatible with the VFR800 PCV either - doesn't show up as an additional purchase option.

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48 minutes ago, HighSideNZ said:

In my opinion Honda have gone on a cost saving drive with this and it is all about reducing costs in the pipes.

A single O2 sensor and crap merges.

 

This is true, HighSide. and as Wade and I discovered, getting a fat, non-crossover cyl #1 primary tube (left rear) past all the 8 gen hardware that Honda nestled in around the stock headers has proven to be a bit of a rub - solveable, but not solved yet.

 

Also to be noted is the difference in 02 sensor size - 12mm for stock 8 gen and 18mm for 5/6 gen and Bosch wideband sensors. We’ll have to get a plan together for 8 gen bung size. Wade is highly in favor of a single choice for 8 gen headers: get a single bung, single size, single placement or no bung at all.

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Back to the 6th generation chart does anyone think the mufflers and the mid pipe had anything to do with the loss of power on top end.

 

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Thanks for the update SF - have a great time in TX!!!

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