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5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

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41 minutes ago, SEBSPEED said:

Reference point, for better or worse...

 

Full titanium header with Ti can & midpipe for the RSV4 from Austin Racing is 2000GBP.

 

Performance isn't cheap, custom fab is even less cheap, and V4 headers are a lot more difficult to make than I4 systems. 

 

I genuinely don't doubt it. But there is a point at which the $ outweigh the gains by enough to make you think twice.

 

As I said, if I were actually there (so didn't have to worry about shipping and possibly Tax added on top), I'd be looking at it a lot more seriously, assuming of course that there were measurable gains etc.

 

But where the total cost to me starts to look somewhere in the order of $3K, for a possible gain of around 5hp...? I'd likely have to draw a line under it.

 

That said, I hope it does get built, and people are able to take advantage of it.

 

The overall value proposition is pretty subjective and a very much individual thing...some will jump at it, others (depending on circumstance) perhaps not.

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That right there was the actual tipping point, a $1000 for what may be 2-3 hp for the average Joe.  Me, I was on a mission, still sorta am. Then landed the unicorn to play with on a dyno with a pc3 and a few air filters.   But when it came right down to it,  VFR folks just wanted a better header at a value price,  didn't get the feed back that told me they care about if the HP was better. vs. those that wanted more ompf was minimal at best.  IIRC I had right around 10 folks that would like to get what I was after once it was proven, and of those 10, 6 where 6th gen owners, so that needed to be worked out.  Gabe was sure after he saw the Two Bros version and  thought he could get it do do a wee bit better.  but even at that at what price?  Now that I have what it does I'm pretty happy.  Cams and possible porting head work are next  😉 Yet the VFR demographics say I'm a rare breed, so?   Funny thing is $3k for a R1 or RSV4 header is no big deal to those folks,  so this tells me where the VFR really is as sad as it is to say.   My hat is off to you to stay the coarse if ...   That said, the basic tubing size is 36mm or 1.50 in. on the Two Bros and Erion version. (that's the same).   21" to 24" inch primary's.  Honda must of had something in the think tank here as the longest is # 1.  We where also going to looking into if that was a build and fit thing with the primarys and or something they did to get more mid range. Gabe thought making them even would be the better, but we didn't get that far to find out.      We where getting ready to also play with mid collector length vs. bends when all was coming down,   that and there's a small hurdle to jump over getting 36mm tubes in the head,  then there's making gaskets,  stock copper donut gaskets won't work here,  It's a very tight fit.  Best of. 😉

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I'm with you in the camp of a small number of VFR owners who are/have chased additional HP in larger volumes.

Me with my 825 5th/6th Gen and Mohawk with his 5th Gen.

Both with cams, me with a big bore and head work as well.

My fix for the header situation was to buy an RC45 Shark header and mod it to fit and now with me not running side pod radiators the front splayed headers from the RC45 were a good choice. The only way to overcome the small gasket issue for me was to not run any.

Good luck with your mods and I hope it all works out as well as mine did.

Cheers

Phil

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Just to note for everyone the price of £1000-1500 was for the initial development and the jig production. 

 

We aim to be able to produce them for approx £900 or less if we can. 

 

900 GBP

1150 USD

1620 AUD

 

Basically without making a set we don't know what time and materials are involved to give an accurate price so please do take everything at this stage as guess work and approximations. 

 

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23 hours ago, BiKenG said:

I think this is something that needs to be settled. Honda pair the Lefts and the Rights as did TBR and Erion before that (same guy I think). Although the Tuono is Fronts and Rears paired, that may not be relevant to our requirement. The Aprilia has a different cylinder angle and I've no idea what the firing order, nor crank angle is. So what works best for Aprilia V4 power may not work for the VFR.

 

So I would tend towards thinking the original Honda merge style would be best. Everyone holds up the TBR as the system to copy and that's what they use so does it not make sense to stick with that?

 

Has this been discussed with BW? Any idea what their intentions are with regard to this aspect?

 

Thinking further on this merging issue, Honda merge the Lefts and Rights and then merges the resulting Left and Right (as does the TBR) on all bikes I've checked that use a 180° crank (VFR750 and VFR800), but on the bikes with 360° cranks (RC30, RC45, NC30, NC35) they merge Fronts and Rears and then Front and Rear.

 

I think this gives a clear indication of what is the best for the bike under discussion here, i.e. the VFR800. Which rather leaves a question over the Lextek system. Unless the picture is actually of a 400 (or RC30/45) system. Again, do we have any idea about BW's intentions regarding this?

 

As far as I'm concerned, the CSK system is way out of reach pricewise. It appears they do fantastic work, but even at the regular price indicated by Louis it's not appropriate for me and let's be honest, if you're that keen on spending money to get a fast V4, buy the Aprilia, or Ducati, or Norton. For my purposes the Lextek price makes more sense.

 

That's not to denigrate CSK in any way. Fabulous looking work and Louis has jumped in here and been very accommodating, but it won't be for me.

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The biggest hurdle I see here is the division of the target audience over 3 or 4 continents or geopolitical areas:

 

1. USA/Canada

2. Australia.

3. UK

4. Europe

 

CSK are located in the UK so probably economically viable for groups 3 & 4 as above.

Numbers-wise the greater interest will surely reside in group 1.

Anyone in group 2 will pay through the nose due to tax and shipping, unless they locate a manufacturer in situ.

 

Group 1 might be able to offset costs and make the final price point attractive IF they could finally get together in a cave and groove with a pict all at once, split a deposit for the prototype, then have 10+ of the final product whacked in a crate and slung onto a slow boat through China with a declared value inferior to the real bickies forked out (in order to lower possible customs duties and insurance costs, only if, I repeat only IF, willing to sacrifice on eventual insurance payouts if something did go astray on the way over).

 

Sincerely though, a US manufacturer would surely be able to make some business out of this. Otherwise, the viability pales.

 

The aforementioned geographically limitating factors, general fluctuations in consensus, ebb and flow of VFR800 owners who just come and go, have me in a big comfy armchair with a megalarge tub of popcorn here... don't mean to be a party pooper.

 

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I was one of those who put in some $ for the 'RVFR' header build way back when.  I've also been keeping an eye on the various VFR header build discussions, just hoping for something reasonable.  I think it's been fairly well established that even moderate HP gains for a 5th/6th gen VFR for moderate $ (subjective, I realize) just isn't happening (browse various projects on the site).  The 'tipping point' of $1000, as pointed out by RVFR, is where I drew the line.  A full system for up to $1000 for the VFR was reasonable to me, considering that just a decent 'can' costs from $300 up.  I was also an early adopter of the Rapidbike offering (very happy with it still), which was costly then and doesn't really make economic sense for VFR owners, just my opinion.  My intent at the time was to be able to add Nitrous (and wanted timing adjustments) for use as a 'passing gear', so occasional HP gain was the goal then.  I dropped that idea long ago.

 

Considering that my VFR is now worth maybe $4K, depending on source used to estimate, spending 25% of that on a header system is not easy to justify.  The VFR is still a very competent all-rounder as she sits.  All that being said, I will continue to follow the saga and see where things end up.  Who knows, I may still be riding when something actually materializes.

 

@Auspanglish - "get together in a cave and groove with a pict all at once" ... Pink Floyd reference? 😁.

 

ACE

 

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8 hours ago, carlgustav said:

I was one of those who put in some $ for the 'RVFR' header build way back when.  I've also been keeping an eye on the various VFR header build discussions, just hoping for something reasonable.  I think it's been fairly well established that even moderate HP gains for a 5th/6th gen VFR for moderate $ (subjective, I realize) just isn't happening (browse various projects on the site).  The 'tipping point' of $1000, as pointed out by RVFR, is where I drew the line.  A full system for up to $1000 for the VFR was reasonable to me, considering that just a decent 'can' costs from $300 up.  I was also an early adopter of the Rapidbike offering (very happy with it still), which was costly then and doesn't really make economic sense for VFR owners, just my opinion.  My intent at the time was to be able to add Nitrous (and wanted timing adjustments) for use as a 'passing gear', so occasional HP gain was the goal then.  I dropped that idea long ago.

 

Considering that my VFR is now worth maybe $4K, depending on source used to estimate, spending 25% of that on a header system is not easy to justify.  The VFR is still a very competent all-rounder as she sits.  All that being said, I will continue to follow the saga and see where things end up.  Who knows, I may still be riding when something actually materializes.

 

@Auspanglish - "get together in a cave and groove with a pict all at once" ... Pink Floyd reference? 😁.

 

ACE

 

hell I should be getting my $1100 full system for my 86 750 soon, so spending this on my 6 gen is what it is for me, I would even buy one from gabe that way my RVFR money went to something other than a few dyno runs. either way I am on board with who ever produces something on par or better than two brothers

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15 hours ago, LouisWhiteCSK said:

Just to note for everyone the price of £1000-1500 was for the initial development and the jig production. 

 

We aim to be able to produce them for approx £900 or less if we can. 

 

900 GBP

1150 USD

1620 AUD

 

Basically without making a set we don't know what time and materials are involved to give an accurate price so please do take everything at this stage as guess work and approximations. 

 

 Sounds about right, as towards the end Gabe was thinking closer to $1200,  I was saying no to that,  Also what played into that was how many?  What really shot me in the foot was Gabe making his move as he did.  I get what he was up too, just lousy timing,  I know his work, still keep in touch for those special needs,  he's a true artist and knows his trade.  None better that I know of and that was that. If I knew of someone else that could do what he does and was close by I'd be all over this.  That said there's a reality piece to do this,  so may be better off to let the big boys eat this up.  but did find out whats the what. VFR owners area fickled bunch,  I say that tongue in cheek as I've always thought the VFR as a sport bike that does very well at all things, where the majority  that's also 6th gen as the VFR as a smaller FJ that's got legs that likes to make a turn here and there.  I get it.   It ain't in a CBR market, so is it a really a good business model?  That's where I get the rub.  it should be.   Yet?     I'll be definitely still be watching this, as it's a hot button I want to push.

 

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7 minutes ago, 3dcycle said:

hell I should be getting my $1100 full system for my 86 750 soon, so spending this on my 6 gen is what it is for me, I would even buy one from gabe that way my RVFR money went to something other than a few dyno runs. either way I am on board with who ever produces something on par or better than two brothers

 LOL Gabe and I talked about You and a couple others,  but it didn't fall on good ears to build just 3-4,  then in his eyes it's all about time  the  money when hes building  goodies for the R35 crowd,  which spends big bucks. so to him it's simple math. 

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20 minutes ago, 3dcycle said:

hell I should be getting my $1100 full system for my 86 750 soon, so spending this on my 6 gen is what it is for me, I would even buy one from gabe that way my RVFR money went to something other than a few dyno runs. either way I am on board with who ever produces something on par or better than two brothers

 

Wait... so a bunch of people pooled $ for a header build that didn't happen, and didn't get their money back? :blink:

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50 minutes ago, 3dcycle said:

hell I should be getting my $1100 full system for my 86 750 soon, so spending this on my 6 gen is what it is for me, I would even buy one from gabe that way my RVFR money went to something other than a few dyno runs. either way I am on board with who ever produces something on par or better than two brothers

 

Hey 3D - are you actually having a full system built for your 86, or is that reference an effective [and much appreciated] gesture of humorous tongue-in-cheek sarcasm?

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8 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

 

Hey 3D - are you actually having a full system built for your 86, or is that reference an effective [and much appreciated] gesture of humorous tongue-in-cheek sarcasm?

Just got a email confirmation this morning it’s in the mail.

ripplerock out of Canada is making it backed by hindle I think, or something like that. I asked them about the 6 gen but not really interested at the moment. But it was a proper system with dump runs and everything, had to pony up $350 18 month ago, then once they got the r&d done I paid the remainder 6 month ago.

 

https://www.ripplerockracers.com/

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Just had a chat to the seller of that Lextek system on eBay UK. I asked if the picture was of the actual correct system as the Fronts and Rears merging is really for a 360° crank motor and not the VFR800 which is 180°. To cut a long story short, he knows nothing about it and just sells them. Apparently Lextek say VFR800s run ok with it and it didn't need changing (from what though).

 

Looks to me like they used an existing collector and bodged it to fit the VFR800 and as it does actually run (which it would of course) didn't look into it any further.

 

While I think spending loads of cash to try to extract every last hp from a VFR is probably a mug's game, actually saddling it with a fundamentally badly designed pipe system is equally daft. Everyone can make their own choice of course, but IMO the Lextek system is to be avoided at all costs.

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4 hours ago, 3dcycle said:

Just got a email confirmation this morning it’s in the mail.

ripplerock out of Canada is making it backed by hindle I think, or something like that. I asked them about the 6 gen but not really interested at the moment. But it was a proper system with dump runs and everything, had to pony up $350 18 month ago, then once they got the r&d done I paid the remainder 6 month ago.

 

https://www.ripplerockracers.com/

 

I've ogled a few of the Hindle licensed cans that Ripple Rock has produced on CB1100F's - they are beautiful and sound great. The quality looks top notch and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I was in the market. I would be surprised if your new system was anything other than outstanding. Cheers!

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It looks like the 750 header was done right from ripple rocks, it took so long to get it coming because the paired the fronts and rears and it ran poorly so the switched to right and lefts paire... or vise versa. But dyno tuned and jet recommendations. Will post pictures when I get it

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FWIW  man those guys at Lextek must be getting a boat load of questions, as I too have been exchanging emails.  LOL  I'm not sure who over there is running the show, photos say one thing, videos another, then there's the who did what with what and they don't seem to know.  I may have to get one for the VFRonster as it is reasonable cost wise,  then I'd know what's what. but until, yea I'm guarded, yet very curious as there are a couple things worth seeing just how they went about it. time will tell.   In the mean time I'm still on the fence where to take what I know would work for what market there really is vs. a mission of.    

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8 hours ago, BiKenG said:

Just had a chat to the seller of that Lextek system on eBay UK. I asked if the picture was of the actual correct system as the Fronts and Rears merging is really for a 360° crank motor and not the VFR800 which is 180°. To cut a long story short, he knows nothing about it and just sells them. Apparently Lextek say VFR800s run ok with it and it didn't need changing (from what though).

 

Looks to me like they used an existing collector and bodged it to fit the VFR800 and as it does actually run (which it would of course) didn't look into it any further.

 

While I think spending loads of cash to try to extract every last hp from a VFR is probably a mug's game, actually saddling it with a fundamentally badly designed pipe system is equally daft. Everyone can make their own choice of course, but IMO the Lextek system is to be avoided at all costs.

 

Great post! My thanks also for actually following up.

 

Seems like there are a few choices:

 

1) Pay middling prices for a poorly designed thing (this, of course, depends on what BW come up on their system, and it's cost)

 

2) Pay relatively big $ for a well-designed system (if enough people can be encouraged to stump up deposits), and noting a reasonably long lead time to get things organised.

 

3) Stick with what you have, noting that it isn't ideal, but that the alternatives will either deliver small gains (2), or potentially run worse (1).

 

On the Lextek thing; If I received answers like "I don't know, I just sell them", I, too, would walk away!

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Curious - why does a 180 degree crank engine (4th/5th/6th gen) need lefts/rights and then fronts/backs merged header and 360 degree crank engine (rc30/rc45) need backs/fronts and then lefts/rights merged header?

 

I’m genuinely curious and don’t understand why it makes any difference unless you’re running richer rear cylinders and want the o2 sensors to read an average of the lean fronts/rich rears. 

 

Otherwise it it shouldn’t matter, no? Exhaust pulses are exhaust pulses. 

 

After all, VFROZ is running an rc45 header on his 5th gen (please correct me if this is wrong) and it pulls like a horny teenager. That’s a 360 crank header on a 180 crank motor. 

 

The Lextek exhaust looks well made but you can’t expect there’s any dyno time behind it. It’s made in China by skilled people at a great price. Worth taking a punt if you need a header cheap - I’d be very surprised if your bike runs poorly with it. You may even make some gains (looks lighter than stock 5th gen header and the bends look nice). 

 

The CSK header look amazing but really £1000/$1200 is crazy for a 20 year old bike with underpowered motor. Also, that is just fab work - no dyno tuning involved. 

 

In this respect its its exactly the same as the Lextek at 5x the price - a nice looking header with no dyno work. 

 

Someone needs to try the Lextek and see how it fares. 

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6 hours ago, Stray said:

Curious - why does a 180 degree crank engine (4th/5th/6th gen) need lefts/rights and then fronts/backs merged header and 360 degree crank engine (rc30/rc45) need backs/fronts and then lefts/rights merged header?

 

I’m genuinely curious and don’t understand why it makes any difference unless you’re running richer rear cylinders and want the o2 sensors to read an average of the lean fronts/rich rears. 

 

Otherwise it it shouldn’t matter, no? Exhaust pulses are exhaust pulses. 

 

After all, VFROZ is running an rc45 header on his 5th gen (please correct me if this is wrong) and it pulls like a horny teenager. That’s a 360 crank header on a 180 crank motor. 

 

The Lextek exhaust looks well made but you can’t expect there’s any dyno time behind it. It’s made in China by skilled people at a great price. Worth taking a punt if you need a header cheap - I’d be very surprised if your bike runs poorly with it. You may even make some gains (looks lighter than stock 5th gen header and the bends look nice). 

 

The CSK header look amazing but really £1000/$1200 is crazy for a 20 year old bike with underpowered motor. Also, that is just fab work - no dyno tuning involved. 

 

In this respect its its exactly the same as the Lextek at 5x the price - a nice looking header with no dyno work. 

 

Someone needs to try the Lextek and see how it fares. 

 

The way exhaust pulses are combined can have a very significant effect on the power of the engine. For the 2000 FireBlade (CBR929RR) Honda used a (cast Titanium) combiner valve that joined 1+4 and 2+3, or 1+2 and 3+4 under different conditions specifically because to maximise power under all conditions required the different merge styles. It was their first exhaust 'power valve'.

 

So the way the pulses are combined can make a big difference and the pulses from a 180° and a 360° V4 occur in a different pattern which Honda (and other exhaust engineers) have found require the different merging for each of the crank designs in order to maximise power. Let's face it, the way they merge Lefts and Rights on the 800 is much more complicated than Fronts and Rears, with more pipework required etc. They wouldn't do that if they didn't think it necessary.

 

Using the wrong merge style isn't going to make the bike unrideable, or even be particularly noticeable to some riders, but on a dyno it would be very noticeable and with the main thrust of this topic being to source a good high quality, high power replacement to the TBR system, going the other way to something that makes less power than stock is probably not what people here want.

 

This exhaust tuning should not be dismissed. When Honda were racing their multi cylinder 4 strokes back in the 60s, current thinking was that a separate pipe for each cylinder allowed freest gas flow and gave the most power. It has since been discovered that combining the pulses in the right way means one cylinder's pulse can help scavenge the exhaust of the other(s). This is one of the main reasons for the huge increase in specific power output of modern race engines.

 

I cannot help but think that anyone who tries to tell you that a Fronts and Rears merged system works well on a 180° crank 90° V4 is trying to sell such a system that they made because it was the cheapest way to do it and I'd need to see dyno comparison charts to convince me otherwise.

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A clue to this discussion is the fact that on 5G/6G they merge left and right. 

On the 8G they merge front and rear. 

The 8G lost top end power but gained low end torque. 

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14 minutes ago, VFROZ said:

A clue to this discussion is the fact that on 5G/6G they merge left and right. 

On the 8G they merge front and rear. 

The 8G lost top end power but gained low end torque. 

 

Can the lost top end power be regained by increasing the diameter of the tubing?

 

NOT asking for a friend. 😉

 

I didn't see any post on the mods you made to the RC45 exhaust with your big bore VFR800.

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After a bit of re thinking the Lextek system,  I might as well make a duel pipe left side exit system using  the mate the two rear, as that's what the rc45 does then add this is on a CA. 99 version, doubt I'll notice much power loss,  as the idea is simpler to create something for the VFRonster

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