Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 31, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2015 CR46 OK, so it is fuel cut. Makes sense. In any situation the number of readings is so high that it should be reasonably accurate and quick to respond. I didn't want to have to have a notebook permanently connected, just a device that could write to an SD card. Much more flexible. If you are doing a track day, the last thing you want is a back pack, and some organisers will not allow them anyway based on safety. Mohawk I thought that is what you meant. When mine were done I lost about .004" off the base circle so it only moved my shims by 0.1mm Not much mass difference there. You are right, you would get a fair bit of loading reduction if you could reduce the retainers by 40-60% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted February 1, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 1, 2015 Well got the front head off today and lo and behold there was NO witnessing on the piston from the valves! Stripped the head completely and then "blued" the valve to check the seating. ALL seated perfectly from the rings of engineers blue left on the seats. I am now rather confused to say the least. I think I'll give the valves a quick lap in tomorrow and assemble the head. Fit in back to the cases with the old head gasket. Not fit the cams and then do a leak down test again. That should show where any losses/leakage is occurring. If I can't find anything with the front cylinders, I'll have no choice but to rip the rear head off and check that as well. I'll keep you informed. Sorry no photos at this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted February 1, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 1, 2015 Thanks . For the update . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted February 1, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 1, 2015 After a 71% leak condition, that seems quite a mystery. I'm eager to hear and see more about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted February 1, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 1, 2015 That's a mixed blessing. A lot easier to fix something when it is something obvious. How did the head gasket look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted February 1, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 1, 2015 Were the plugs still tight ? How about the bores ? Could the leak down be due to a poor seal on the comp tester ? You need a bore scope camera, I#ve not tried mine down the plug hole, but it might be easier than stripping the head off. Hope you get to the bottome of the mistery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted February 1, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 1, 2015 piston or ring ? Not the same cylinder as the first time ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted February 1, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 1, 2015 Well the plot thickens Lapped all the valve on the front head this morning and they all lapped and blued up fine and with little effort. Assembled the head and fitted it back to the crankcase with the old gasket and torqued it down. Did another leak down test on both cylinders at top and bottom dead centre and all is fine. Here are some shots Pistons directly after stripdown No 2 piston a bit closer (notice there are no marks on either the inlet or exhaust pockets. The leak down test of No 2 Close up of the gauges As you can see there is no marks on the piston and the leak down is showing about 3 PSI leakage at 70 PSI line pressure. Checked all of the cylinders whilst on the bench and they all came up within a PSI of each other. The tests at BDC where the same once the cylinder had filled and pressurised. I am now wondering if it was a bit of floating carbon under a valve and stuck to the valve/seat holding it open. Pulling the valves would have dislodged it and I probably would never have seen it. I suppose the proof will be in the eating when it is all back together and running. I'm in 2 minds as to whether to pull the rear hard seeing it is out of the frame. It's only the cost of some time and a gasket, so I may as well do it, just to be sure. Hate to put it all back together and in the frame just to find the problem is still there. Cheers Phil Hey sorry about the bottom 2 images. They are supposed to be in portrait mode but I'm not sure how to get them that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted February 2, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 2, 2015 Better ... I hope it was carbon ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted February 4, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 4, 2015 The plot thickness even further. I am supposed to be away with a few mates on a long ride around the North Island of NZ at present but after setting off yesterday I've had to turn around and come back home. What I am experiencing is pretty much what I got directly after the over-rev that I thought clipped a couple of valves. Motor flat, won't pull, at constant throttle major hesitation and popping on over-run. This is with the stock 6th Gen motor. The only difference is that I've just fitted the RB YouTune module, so I quickly disconnected that and the problem still persists. So, I'm thinking O2 sensor issues. What I did see with the YouTune module still connected and operating was that the AFR was fine until I got on to constant throttle and then it would wildly fluctuate from in the 12's all the way up to the 15's I had to isolate the My Tuning Bike wideband O2 just to make it ride able to get home. But the problem still existed and of course it's raining so a throttle that is like a switch is sooo much fun on greasy roads after a long dry spell. So, the short of it all could well be that I didn't have to strip the 825 motor out and pull the heads. Still can't understand the first leakdown test I did showing No 2 with a big issue. Well, I think I'm going to have to change out the O2 sensors one by one until I find the issue. If I get no joy from that, I think it will be time to pull the RapidBike Racing module and see what happens from there. I'll keep you post again on progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted February 4, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 4, 2015 This is one of the most interesting and unique build threads in quite some time. Thanks for all the updates. Best on getting it sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted February 4, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 4, 2015 You are quite more experienced than I so please don't take this the wrong way... is it possible the #2 cylinder wasn't in the right position and a valve was partially open? Best of luck sorting this out... keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Oh that sucks more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted February 4, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 4, 2015 Hi Rush2112 Yep, that has crossed my mind a number of times. No, I never take things like this the wrong way. I could have quite easily made a mistake but I was pretty sure that it was on the compression stroke but maybe still on the tail end of the intake, hence the valves would have still been partially open. I must admit I'm more than a bit pissed off that I've spent all this time swapping/stripping etc., not to mention another set of head gaskets, for what is looking more and more like a co-incidence of some type. Just trying to think thru what else could be causing these types of symptoms. The items that are the same between the 2 engine installs are: 1. Throttle bodies 2. Injectors 3. ECU 4. Rapid Bike modules 5. O2 Sensors 6. Exhaust To test the factory O2 sensors tonight, I connected an OBD tool to the ECU and could see that both sensors were modulating the same as the signal comes from the RB Racing unit. At the same time I had the RB software running and watching the AFR. It was sitting where I would have expected it. At least in the garage. Next, I connected the O2 sensors directly to the factory wiring bypassing the signal from the RB Racing. On the OBD software I could see both of the sensors trying to hit 14.7 and they both were completely independent in voltage readings. From this I have to think that the factory O2 sensors are working as expected. Tomorrow I'll try my other wideband O2 on the My Tuning Bike unit. Gee, carbs are so much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zRoYz Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I know zero about the Rapid Bike module so is more a question thought than advise. Power commander requires 02 eliminators to replace the 02 sensors mainly due to the FI fault the PC causes. This doesn't seem to be a problem because you tune the PC for the entire rev range which includes the range the 02 sensors operate closed loop so your effectively operating the bike in open loop all the time which is when the bike runs solely on engine mapping which your tuning with the PC map complete rev range. As your using Rapid Bike module with it's own 02 sensor to map the bike & make adjustments over the complete rev range do you still require the bike existing 02 sensors as they could be glitching the Rapid Bike module map? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wera803 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Just throwing ideas out there for you, but I assume the tank is the same, which means the fuel pump, fuel filter, etc. is the same too. Maybe something is going on with one of those and limiting fuel delivery? Or some sort of vapor lock on the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted February 4, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 4, 2015 I know zero about the Rapid Bike module so is more a question thought than advise. Power commander requires 02 eliminators to replace the 02 sensors mainly due to the FI fault the PC causes. This doesn't seem to be a problem because you tune the PC for the entire rev range which includes the range the 02 sensors operate closed loop so your effectively operating the bike in open loop all the time which is when the bike runs solely on engine mapping which your tuning with the PC map complete rev range. As your using Rapid Bike module with it's own 02 sensor to map the bike & make adjustments over the complete rev range do you still require the bike existing 02 sensors as they could be glitching the Rapid Bike module map? The RapidBike Race module intercepts the O2 sensor reading and sends the ECU a "good" signal that the ECU will interpret as no changes needed to the fuel mixture. This way the RB unit gets actionable information about AFR from the O2 sensors and the ECU goes along happily thinking the AFR is where it should be. I believe you use either the My Tuning Bike wideband O2 sensor(s) or the factory O2 sensors... I haven't installed mine yet so I'll let someone with actual experience answer that one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted February 4, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 4, 2015 Rush2112 is correct in his description of what occurs with the RB modules. They modulate the factory O2 sensor signal and the ECU believes all is good. Without the My Tuning Bike wideband, the EVO/Racing RB units can use the narrowband O2 sensors to develope a map but it takes a bit longer as the data received is limited in the AFR scope it can see. One thing that I did do last night was to re-calibrate the TPS signal in the RB Racing module. There was a small variance on the voltage readings between the 2 throttle body/TPS assemblies so not sure what overall effect that will have but as soon as the weather clears a bit here, I'll get out and check. Learning is so much fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted February 5, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hi Wera803 I thought about fuel delivery but discounted it as under hard acceleration all is fine and this is where the high demand for fuel is, not at constant throttle. OK, latest update. After a short ride this morning, after the TPS re-calibration, it was the same. So I changed out the wideband O2 sensor for the one I use with my Zeitronic data logger. Same Bosch units so all good. Went for a 50km one way ride and the problem is still there with the same effects. Before heading home I removed the RB Racing unit and fitted the bypass Adori plug to the wiring loom. This removes everything RapidBike from the system and makes the bike run back on the factory ECU and O2 sensors. Back to a stock VFR800 VTec. Completely ridable with the annoying 3000 rpm jitters but nothing else. I've emailed Yaman at RBUSA and outlined my finding and asked for advice on where to go next. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted February 6, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 6, 2015 That's not good ;( Have you tried removing the various parts of the RB like the MTB from the wiring to see if it's a sub component ? Also maybe reset the map to a zero map & check the advance map !? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted February 6, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 6, 2015 I'm working currently with Dimsport in Italy to try and sort this out. I've gone thru a first run of data collection for them at this stage and passed that on but of course there is 12 hours time difference between us so there is a bit of a delay. I was going to go directly down the road of component removal, but I'll err to Dimsports knowledge of the product and follow there instructions at this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted February 6, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 6, 2015 It almost sounds like the fuel system injector signal are being delayed by RB race unit. I wonder now if you have some how exceeded the RB unit capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I say time for dyno tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted February 7, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 7, 2015 Dyno time would be good if anyone in NZ had any idea about Rapid Bike. Dimsport have said that the issue is a leak in the exhaust, but I cannot hear one at all. So. just to make sure I pulled the whole pipe assemble off and refitted it after cleaning everything up and replacing the gaskets etc. Went for another ride and the surging is still there. If I completely remove the MyTB unit, and disable the Auto Adaptivity function I can get things back to normal so I can see what Dimsport are saying. It is like a leak causing the auto tuning to go haywire. I do not have many other items that I can change now so I'm going to have to wait in Dimsport and Monday in Italy now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted February 7, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 7, 2015 This has been a fascinating series of posts and, although all of the wrinkles have not been fully resolved, it does sound like the mechanical modifications have been successful. It would be great if you could, when you're comfortable with the results, put together your "recipie" into one post (or perhaps a new thread) so that others of us can benefit from your knowledge and experience. Awesome job! Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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