Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 27, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 27, 2015 Hey guys Sorry after I post this I then thought "I've written them down wrong" The readings should have read No 1 67 PSI 4.2% leak No 2 20 PSI 71% leak No 3 67 PSI 4.2% leak No 4 67 PSI 4.2% leak That looks more like it. I was wondering how No 1 all of a sudden was the front left. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted January 27, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 27, 2015 Bummer. Well if it was just a light kiss, should be good with some replacement valves. Did you have the stock rev limiter on the RBR module ? You know, we (as in users) can't adjust the RBR rev limit, can only be set in the professional dealer software ! maybe reduce it to the actual red line + 50-100rpm, so from 12,200, to 11,850-11,900. It was only a nano second away from a save, so 300rpm less should account for the time difference for the limiter to cut in. Hope this is the last time you have to strip the head. Maybe add the quick shifter to the RBR or did you have it wired up already ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted January 27, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 27, 2015 What I suspected . Sorry . Any difference in thickness of the new head gasket and the original one ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 27, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 27, 2015 Hi Mohawk I have the Pro software. I bought it when I was doing all the work with the RB2 and RB3 so I have full access to all the features so dropping the limit is no problem. Yes you are right, it was just a nano second so 300-500 RPM would probably save the day and not hurt the overall performance for general riding. That was with the quickshifter. It was completely down to me and not being firm enough. No one or thing to blame but me. Switchblade. No the gaskets are stock thickness. Just that with the bigger cams and higher comp pistons the valve to piston clearance is 1mm. As the piston is chasing the inlet valve on close anything that makes the valve flutter is going to cause a problem. As I said above, no one to blame but myself and my sloppy gear change. That will teach me. I haven't done something like that for 30 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 27, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 27, 2015 One thing that I have noticed, whilst I've been building the map for the 825 is to do with the exhaust. I'm currently running a Delkevic header that is a 4 into 1 not the normal 4 into 2 into 1 configuration. The Delkevic collector is pretty average to say the least but the pipe feels like it makes good power up top. Pretty similar to most 4 into 1's. With whatever comes out of the Tyga header project I feel it will be well worth staying with the 4 - 2 - 1 configuration as I feel it will give more mid range. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the 825 pulls really hard from about 9000 upwards and I think I could fatten the mid range from say 8000 by going back to a 4 - 2 - 1 The only reason I've stayed with the Delkevic is that I've modified it to breath better thru the collector and also added the bung for the wideband O2 after the collector. I do have a Motad header but the quality is somewhat poor in my opinion and the restrictions around the header flanges is quite big. Probably could grind them out to overcome this but it is still a pig to fit compared to the Delkevic with all it's slip fit individual headers. I've toyed with cutting the Motad and making slip fits for the 2 front pipes but have held off waiting on what might come of the Tyga. Just me rambling on with my seat of the pants dyno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted January 27, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 27, 2015 Just keep on Rambling, it all looks good from here. I've got a TBR full system to fit, will let you know how that goes. Not sure if you saw my big airbox & reduced height velocity stacks -30mm, which flatten & extend the torque curve from 8500rpm where it used to stat tailing off it now holds until 10250rpm before tailing off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 27, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 27, 2015 Yes I did see what you did with the airbox I've gone down a slightly differing route and have flowed the throttle bodies and matched them to the heads on the bottom end and then chopped up an airbox and used the R6 stacks that CR46 outlined some time ago. So, I've go the shorter stacks at the front and the longer ones to the back. These are matched thru the TB's down to the butterflies. I'm running a PiperCross filter and I've chopped up the top and removed all of the flapper/activator and floor of the flapper chamber etc and then opened up all the inlets right back to the sides and then radius-ed the entry edges. I think it is making a good difference but the way it comes on song, it feels like the pipe to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 28, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well the motor is out and sitting on the bench and the 6th Gen motor is on the cradle ready to go back in to the frame first thing tomorrow morning. I was going to stick with the 520 chain and 17 tooth front sprocket that I've been running on the 5th Gen motor. Has anyone found that 17 teeth on the front is too much for a 6th Gen? It will be 17/43 instead of 16/43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted January 28, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 28, 2015 I believe the 6th gen is 16/43 as std & 17/43 on 5th gen. I run 16/43 at the mo & it definitely feels livelier :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted January 28, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 28, 2015 I believe the 6th gen is 16/43 as std & 17/43 on 5th gen. I run 16/43 at the mo & it definitely feels livelier :) Yes, that's correct on all counts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Two things, I think you should fit heavier valve springs, to prevent valve float and try again. Second, I am running 17/43 gearing right now, for more relaxed high speed high way riding. It can pull the taller gearing fine, its just a little less fun. It will still power up first gear, but its more of a slow graceful wheelie. Second gear refuses to clutch up any more though. But highway riding is great. Super relaxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gig Posted January 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 29, 2015 16/43 on my 5th gen, great for back road and twisties, but not enjoyable for hwy riding at a distance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 29, 2015 Thanks guys re the gearing. I've gone back to me 530 chain and 16/43 standard gearing for the 6th Gen As far as valve springs go, I'm not looking at bumping the rev range at all. Quite happy with the 12k odd limit. The over all problem was, 1, my sloppy change due to my ankle and 2, the valve to piston clearance probably should have been a little more. I remembered I had my Contour2 camera operating when I over-revved so took a look at the video and listened to the sound track. It was going from second to third at full noise. It started pulling in third, then dropped out, so it was well under load and a fist full of throttle. The rev limiter kicked in and bounced about 4 times before I got it under control. So, in the bigger scheme of things, it was nothing but my fault and ramping up the spring rate is only going to suck power and accelerate cam wear. Think I'll stick with the standard springs seeing that they are the same springs as the RC45 out of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted January 29, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 29, 2015 I was thinking about changing the spring retainers for 7075 alloy ones which would achieve the same effect as stronger springs by lightening the valve set, without the draw backs that strong springs bring ! Anyone fancy some ? Some CBR900/1000 ones might fit, but I need to get one out & find a comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 29, 2015 Alloy ones would be good, but I ask the question. Are we trying to build a race bike engine? I would have to say if we are, then we chose the wrong bike! Loosing a butt load of weight would far offset the increase in HP and also give an increase in handling response. What I was looking for, with the work I've undertaken is: 1. To get rid of the VTec (that honestly is a farce in my book) 2. Gain an increase in high mid range torque 3. Make the engine generally breath better and be able to map a more economical cruise. I think I've succeeded in this but in hindsight would have been better of paying for some dyno time to create the general base map instead of doing it myself with the MTB module. Not that I have not been able to do it and it is getting pretty close, just my ankle accident has thrown a bit of a spanner in the works that I didn't contend with well. Not as young as I think! Just my thoughts Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 30, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 30, 2015 Well after riding the standard 6th Gen engine today, I now remember why I embarked on this project. It was like riding a limp bus ticket! The 5th Gen engine is just sooo much sweeter. For all the work they did with the VTec I honestly do not know why they bothered. I can see why people stick with the 5th Gen and never upgrade. Can't wait to get the valves repaired and swap the engines over again. A lot of work but after my ride just now, worth every second of it. I also think the 5th Gen gearing (internal to the box) is much better suited than the 6th Gen. I suppose I can't complain, a bad day riding beats a good day not riding! At least I'm back on the road whilst I do the repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrcapn Posted January 30, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 30, 2015 Good grief man, you can swap motors faster than I can swap a set of tires! 5th gens are sweet, hope it's all back together soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted January 30, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 30, 2015 Well not a race engine this time, but still toying with uber juice VFR916R ! Now that would have lumpier cams. But really my cam guys were a bit worried about the extra shim weight added by the plus 1mm shims. Probably not an issue on std piston clearances, but I told them I was looking at a big bore ! Just read in last months PB that the Aprilia V4 engine with TB's weighs 71kg & 5th gen weighs 74, not sure if that is with TB's or not ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 30, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 30, 2015 VFRCAPN Hey, I've had a fair bit of practice over the years. Once you figure out the best approach, and build any tools needed, it's pretty straight forward. MOHAWK Plus 1mm shims? Sorry not sure what you mean. Hey that's not bad, the weight comparison between the Aprilla V4 and a 26 year old Honda design. Look, if you are still toying with the 825 idea, I'd have to say that it is well worth the effort. Just reinforced that feeling after todays ride on the 6th Gen. I'm going to pull the head tomorrow (on the 825) and take a look at the valves. I was thinking about the whole situation and I am wondering if the valve pockets on No2 are not completely correct. Listening to the video again, it was on the limiter for quite awhile so if the pockets were all the same then I'd expect that I'd have clipped more than just one lot. There should be some witnessing on the piston so I should be able to figure it out and hopefully the pockets are at fault. I can fix those. With the regard to the valve springs, the valves/springs/retainers are all the same part numbers between the RC45 and VFR800Fi and by the look of it also the CBR900RR, atleast the retainer is. I'll let you know what I find on the strip down. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted January 30, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 30, 2015 And pic's please, love to see a master work . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 31, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2015 I've just installed the RapidBike YouTune module and now have a cockpit output for TPS/AFR and lots of other things as well as a Traction Control and Launch Control to name a few. And can make changes to AFR and other parameters on the fly directly via the cockpit module. See here for details: http://rapidbike.us/products/youtune Due to this I didn't get the head off the 825 today so it's planned for tomorrow. I'll take some photos at the stripdown and post those with the damage. If the weather holds (on holidays and it just started to rain for the first time in a month) I'll see if I can get a ride in with the YouTune module and let everyone know what it's like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted January 31, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2015 That looks like a very cool bit of kit!!! I'd be curious about the launch control and how the TC works... looking forward to your feedback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted January 31, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2015 Hi Phil, the cams I have were base ground & thus the clearance at rest requred thicker shims to return clearances to normal values. The original shims were < 1mm & the replacements are all > 1mm. I thought he was being over cautious, as a standard engines spends many hours at the limiter on a Dyno during development by a manufacturer to establish the RPM limits. But I've raised my RPM limiter to 12,500rpm, bumped off that a few times in testing & no ill effects so far. But a lighter valve train is always a good thing & much cheaper than Ti valves & their associated disadvantages ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted January 31, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2015 From what I've read the TC works by monitoring the crank sensor and minuscule changes as in a reduction in timeframe (seeing there are, if I remember correctly, 12 trips on the crank sensor wheel, revs by 12 = a huge number of iterations and an extremely short time variance) means that there is slippage so the RB can cut ignition and drop power to the rear wheel. Time will tell I expect, but it looks good in principle. I was also after the TPS and AFR display. I've asked Yaman to contact Italy and see if there is any indication if they are interested in creating a data logging module that plugs in to the CANBUS. We are collecting all the data, or at lease measuring it, so why not log it. I'm used to using a Zeitronic data logger and it is something that is missing that would make the tuning process more accurate and complete. Here are a couple of PDF's for the unit. A full manual and a Quick Guide. Phil YouTune_fast_eng.pdf YouTune_eng.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 A data logger would be a big help! As far as the TC goes, its just fuel cut. As the rapid bike kits rely on tge crank position sensor for engine speed info and manipulate this signal for ignition timing adjustment; it has no means of cutting ignition and pulling timing would interfere with the signal. I spoke with one of dimsport's tech guys about this in detail. I think for data logging, plugging a small laptop in and riding with it in your backpack would be a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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