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Antisocial Riding


Magneto

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You come from small country and choose not to appreciate politics of scale or rather to ignore it Dutchy.

We are talking about continental scale political organism, similar to your European Union. Can your vote influence curvature regulation for bananas EU puts out? Somehow I am skeptical and Brexit confirms it...¬†ūüėČ

 Moving about at safe speed is my natural right, and I do not like this being taxed, realization of the simple fact is a first step toward change. 
Florida is actually pretty good with constitutional amendments being tools of direct democracy. We can’t change national regulations though...

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9 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

Many years ago I saw pie-chart at local CA DMV breaking down various funding sources. Biggest slice of pie, 60-70% of their operating budget came from... yep, you got it... ticket citations!

 

Yep - Book'em Danno................................Sorry couldn't resist!:laughing6-hehe:

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3 hours ago, Magneto said:

You come from small country and choose not to appreciate politics of scale or rather to ignore it Dutchy.

We are talking about continental scale political organism, similar to your European Union. Can your vote influence curvature regulation for bananas EU puts put? Somehow I am skeptical and Brexit confirms it...¬†ūüėČ

 Moving about at safe speed is my natural right, and I do not like this being taxed, realization of the simple fact is a first step toward change. 
Florida is actually pretty good with constitutional amendments being tools of direct democracy. We can’t change national regulations though...

 

Point of order: it was the Brits that pushed for EU rules on bananas....:tongue:

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Well it could be worse, latest noise from an unthinking Police State supporter.

 

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/antisocial-riding/

 

Re bananas & other NOT straight produce. Brits campaigned to Stop EU setting minimum size & straightness for Bananas & other crops. To allow some of our ex territories to continue selling produce to EU & not throw perfectly edible fruits away because it was not to a prescribed size or shape. 

 

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LOL, moment I heard this anti-s designation I knew some agenda is being pushed. Note we are already carrying trackers, we buy them on our own and pay for the service. All¬†they want to be able to do is access the live data. I bet the app will be free. ¬†¬†ūü§™... wonder what group will be next - slowly but surely.¬†

 

Re bananas. Apparently after a while it all become blurry enough to blame brits of starting whole fuss even if they were against it. Thank you for fact checking our Netherlander friend. Either way, point still remains, nobody voted or could possibly influence banana regulations. 

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Modern political agendas often come with some sort of code-word or phrase attached.  When you 1st hear it you think to yourself "WTF is THAT"?  "Micro-aggression" comes to mind.  Loosely defined as "anything interpreted by a snowflake as violating their "safe space" that might make them feel uncomfortable."   Possibly one's "too loud" exhaust pipe might make the millenial Prius driver uncomfortable, for which the penalty would be for the local SWAT team to be called in to surround you and your bike and put you face down on the ground with a rifle at your helmet while they cuff you.  Afterward, your GoPro video of the incident will be removed from youtube and FB, your accounts canceled for the "misinformation" you posted.   On Monday when you arrive for work you find that you've been fired from your job for your "inappropriate" social media posts.   Not to scoff . . . that's only barely an exaggeration these days. 

 

As for cell phones, I'm not sure when the are "off" that they actually are - it may be one is just disabling the human interface while the nefarious apps hum merrily away in the background.  Probably why cell phone batteries are no longer (at least not easily) user removable. Traffic tickets could easily be issued that way knowing position (and hence the local speed limit) and speed calculated from GPS.   It would be more difficult to prove that you were actually driving the car - but newer cars are probably getting around to that, too.  This may become a reality once 5G becomes ubiquitous.  This is an increasing reason why I prefer to ride in out of the way backroads where the above garbage is not present (at least not yet, anyway). 

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I think it's very hard to make the argument that speed, in isolation, kills, especially on the motorway /freeway etc. 

 

Speed plus will get you though. Be it speed plus inexperience, unfamiliarity with the road, or meeting a car that has no idea you exist

 

Cars are so much safer these days, but the level of inattentiveness when driving is spectacular - anyone here not been knocked off, nearly taken out, or know someone who has been taken out by a car changing lanes right in front of you? I was only going 40mph but I still didn't have the room to stop or dodge.

 

I ride most places locally at pretty much the speed I feel comfortable at, which on occasions is in agreement with local laws. I accept that may at some point cost me money (amazingly, only once in 20 years), but I don't feel it puts me more at risk. 

 

I drive my car much more at the legal road speeds, one because I'm not generally driving just for enjoyment, and two, messing up on a car is rarely a problem that confines itself to just you and your vehicle. 

 

I don't know what the right thing to do with speed limits is. I'd like to say that, as has been said above, people are generally not idiots and will drive to their ability and road conditions by default. However, this was said on a VFR forum not a GSXR forum, and we wouldn't be riding what we ride if we didn't all have some sensible (and middle age) in us. Not all do. 

 

I guess ultimately I'm glad we have the restrictions we do. It makes it safe to be out at legal speeds and have reasonable confidence that the many people driving on autopilot aren't going to kill me, and leaves me with the choice to crack on at higher speed if I want, assuming I'm paying enough attention to not get busted. The idea of thousands of people driving home knackered at higher speeds because they can does not fill me with optimism! 

 

Worth noting that where I live, the chance of getting up to legal speeds in a car is frequently low owing to bad traffic, and we also have horrific road surfaces with many potential bike mauling potholes. 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, moroseduck said:

I think it's very hard to make the argument that speed, in isolation, kills, especially on the motorway /freeway etc. 

 

Speed plus will get you though. Be it speed plus inexperience, unfamiliarity with the road, or meeting a car that has no idea you exist

 

Cars are so much safer these days, but the level of inattentiveness when driving is spectacular - anyone here not been knocked off, nearly taken out, or know someone who has been taken out by a car changing lanes right in front of you? I was only going 40mph but I still didn't have the room to stop or dodge.

 

I ride most places locally at pretty much the speed I feel comfortable at, which on occasions is in agreement with local laws. I accept that may at some point cost me money (amazingly, only once in 20 years), but I don't feel it puts me more at risk. 

 

I drive my car much more at the legal road speeds, one because I'm not generally driving just for enjoyment, and two, messing up on a car is rarely a problem that confines itself to just you and your vehicle. 

 

I don't know what the right thing to do with speed limits is. I'd like to say that, as has been said above, people are generally not idiots and will drive to their ability and road conditions by default. However, this was said on a VFR forum not a GSXR forum, and we wouldn't be riding what we ride if we didn't all have some sensible (and middle age) in us. Not all do. 

 

I guess ultimately I'm glad we have the restrictions we do. It makes it safe to be out at legal speeds and have reasonable confidence that the many people driving on autopilot aren't going to kill me, and leaves me with the choice to crack on at higher speed if I want, assuming I'm paying enough attention to not get busted. The idea of thousands of people driving home knackered at higher speeds because they can does not fill me with optimism! 

 

Worth noting that where I live, the chance of getting up to legal speeds in a car is frequently low owing to bad traffic, and we also have horrific road surfaces with many potential bike mauling potholes. 

 

 

 

 

 

Agree with that just about 100%.

 

We each have to ride our own ride, based on our own experiences. Training helps and you really really have to know yourself and know when you are on it and when you are not. Trouble is, too many drivers/riders think they know they're good when they're actually not. And that's when incidents occur.

 

Personally, I never, ever speed in 20's, 30's or 40's. Above that, I'll use my judgement to decide what my speed will be but as was said earlier, I like to ride a couple of mph faster than the flow of traffic as I hate being co-speed with them as I feel like I vanish.

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I do not think I can agree with general statement ‚Äúsafe at legal speed‚Ä̬†claims. Note that we/ big we,¬†are not safe at any speed. See carnage numbers just from US alone.¬†Driving is a single most dangerous activity we are doing daily and deadly kinetic¬†energy ¬†level is reached right away. Putting ourselves in more and more advanced cocoons make us complacent,¬†but driving¬†is still as dangerous as before people felt it is OK to¬†text. Key is a personal responsibility, who here attempted to text while riding? Yet to see that on a highway... why is that? How to police ‚Äúbeing here now‚ÄĚ?¬†

 

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Also note that there's cause and effect here. 

 

1. cause of crashes has to do with inattentiveness and mistakes (i.e. changing lanes without looking). Speed doesn't cause bad driving such as texting and talking on phone. In some cases, reducing speed-differentials between lanes with higher-limits reduces adverse interactions such as lane-changes.

 

2. effects of mistakes & crashes can be exacerbated with higher speeds sure. Hitting ground & concrete divider @ 75mph is worse than 50mph. But that's only effect after the real cause of incident has already been committed. Which really doesn't relate to speed. ALL of my sideswipes and people pulling out in front of me had occurred at low-speeds, 35-50mph on city streets.

 

In fact, only 4% of traffic fatalities occur on highway where speed is factor. Majority 75% of traffic fatalities occur on city-streets at intersections well below speed-limit anyway. Source: 1996 NHTSA, last time I really researched this and found numbers.

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Amen to DannoXYZ comment comment above!

I like where this discussion is going. 

To Dutchy's defense (related to speeding or antisocial riding) I think her is right on the point with you know what the rules are, if you get caught  breaking them (speeding) you pay. No problem with that. (I grew up and rode a lot in Germany back int the day, raced police few times in my glory days and so on).

This is kind of equivalent to "is is only illegal when/if you get caught" in the US.

 

BTW, how did we end up with the curvature of bananas on antisocial riding again?

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I definitely believe speed is a significant contributing factor.  The faster you go, the less time you have to react/respond and the less margin you have for error.  I had a close call awhile back where I almost T-boned an SUV, and neither one of us was doing anything illegal or stupid - if I had been going even 5mph faster, I might have hit.

 

According to https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/speeding    "Speeding endangers everyone on the road: In 2018, speeding killed 9,378 people."  and "For more than two decades, speeding has been involved in approximately one-third of all motor vehicle fatalities. In 2018, speeding was a contributing factor in 26% of all traffic fatalities."

 

 

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1 hour ago, Samuelx said:

I definitely believe speed is a significant contributing factor.  The faster you go, the less time you have to react/respond and the less margin you have for error.  I had a close call awhile back where I almost T-boned an SUV, and neither one of us was doing anything illegal or stupid - if I had been going even 5mph faster, I might have hit.

 

According to https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/speeding    "Speeding endangers everyone on the road: In 2018, speeding killed 9,378 people."  and "For more than two decades, speeding has been involved in approximately one-third of all motor vehicle fatalities. In 2018, speeding was a contributing factor in 26% of all traffic fatalities."

 

 

Yeah, but i bet all of those involved were breathing too so could you say that breathing could be a contributory factor? Of course not. Just because they were at a speed does not mean speed was a determining factor.

Inappropriate speed is a very serious factor, but who decides what inappropriate is? A speed limit is not necessarily set for what is appropriate, it is set based on the layout of the road and any historical and geographical features that might determine what a limit should be. 

Not sure i agree with "it's not illegal until you are caught", that's utter bollox but i always work on the assumption that i shouldn't be doing anything I'm not  prepared to answer for. 

YMMV

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3 hours ago, Wald said:

Amen to DannoXYZ comment comment above!

I like where this discussion is going. 

To Dutchy's defense (related to speeding or antisocial riding) I think her is right on the point with you know what the rules are, if you get caught  breaking them (speeding) you pay. No problem with that. (I grew up and rode a lot in Germany back int the day, raced police few times in my glory days and so on).

This is kind of equivalent to "is is only illegal when/if you get caught" in the US.

 

BTW, how did we end up with the curvature of bananas on antisocial riding again?

 

Well, lets be civil here Wald¬†ūüėāūü§™¬†Duchy is a good man!

 

Why bananas? It’s an internal EU thing showing power of  bureaucracy, over reaching and unchecked by democratic process . Farrage beat Brussels with them bananas over the head while leading popular Sasenach revolt against EU.

I¬†used it on Duchy to counter his argument that we, regular US voters have ability to influence federal speed limit guidelines.... mainly as much as him being able to influence banana curvature guidelines on HIS federal level in¬†Brussels ūüėČ

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dutchy is a VERY good man !! 

 

and i'd like to add that riding with any muffler i can hear from half a mile away is also anti-social.

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2 hours ago, Magneto said:

 

Well, lets be civil here Wald¬†ūüėāūü§™¬†Duchy is a good man!

 

Why bananas? It’s an internal EU thing showing power of  bureaucracy, over reaching and unchecked by democratic process . Farrage beat Brussels with them bananas over the head while leading popular Sasenach revolt against EU.

I¬†used it on Duchy to counter his argument that we, regular US voters have ability to influence federal speed limit guidelines.... mainly as much as him being able to influence banana curvature guidelines on HIS federal level in¬†Brussels ūüėČ

Oops! Did not intend to make Dutchy a "her" sorry about that.

The other points taken as well.

 

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Sounds like Dutchy would fit in fine here in Socal. Come on down.

Probably want to avoid Texas though.¬† ūüėÄ

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3 hours ago, squirrelman said:

...

 

and i'd like to add that riding with any muffler i can hear from half a mile away is also anti-social.

 

Not in the South, it ain‚Äôt. It‚Äôs considered¬†music here¬†ūüėČ

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37 minutes ago, Magneto said:

 

Not in the South, it ain‚Äôt. It‚Äôs considered¬†music here¬†ūüėČ

 

mostly to your ears alone

 

 

trump country no wonder

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FREE THE PEOPLE!!! :tongue:

 

And let everybody do whatever they feel they are entitled to. 

Not by law of course, because that will always be a compromise. And we cannae have that...

Me, me, me!

 

 

Let's be a bit more "verdraagzaam" and take matters with "een korreltje zout"... :beer:

 

 

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8 hours ago, squirrelman said:

 

mostly to your ears alone

 

 

trump country no wonder

 

Personally I do not care about music much but exhaust music is important to people down here. Live and let live ūüėȬ†

 

20210413-065648.jpg

 

trump-ets¬†ūüėĚ

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46 minutes ago, Dutchy said:

FREE THE PEOPLE!!! :tongue:

 

And let everybody do whatever they feel they are entitled to. 

Not by law of course, because that will always be a compromise. And we cannae have that...

Me, me, me!

 

 

Let's be a bit more "verdraagzaam" and take matters with "een korreltje zout"... :beer:

 

 

 

Nein, nein, nein. Ales verboten....¬†ūüėāI

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18 hours ago, Skids said:

Yeah, but i bet all of those involved were breathing too so could you say that breathing could be a contributory factor? Of course not. Just because they were at a speed does not mean speed was a determining factor.

 

 

Looking back at what I wrote, it looks like I was saying "always" (not sure if that's what you have a problem with).  Fwiw, I didn't mean that, I meant to say and should have added "often".  The internet is chock full of video footage showing accidents that occurred where/when a driver/rider was going too fast - too fast for conditions; too fast for vehicle capabilities; too fast for driver/rider skill level; etc. 

 

Other times, it's simply a matter of wrong place/wrong time.  

(1996) https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-09-20-mn-45651-story.html

(the other week) https://ktla.com/news/local-news/off-duty-l-a-county-deputy-killed-by-flying-tire-on-5-freeway-another-deputy-hospitalized/   (the chronology is incorrect as reported - I was told that the other accident happened first, which caused the wheel to come loose from one of the vehicles involved and fly over the divider)

 

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Fair enough. I'm just sick of all the headline "Speed Kills" ads the Govt puts out over here. Strictly speaking it's true: If we all did zero mph on our bikes, there would be a lot fewer deaths but then what would be the point of living?

 

We're all different...different skill levels, decision-making ability, eyesight, reaction times, risk awareness, awareness in general etc etc, so trying to saddle all motorcycles with a speed kills nametag is wrong to my mind. In over 300k miles on VFR's, I've never been stopped by the police, never caused an accident and only been involved in 2 no-fault accidents so I reckon that whatever I'm doing, I'll carry on doing it. Doesn't mean my number wont come up someday but I try my best to enjoy my riding, including spirited when I deem it safe enough for me.

 

There are some riders (and drivers) who's self-belief vastly outweighs both their skill and luck. I just hope they don't involve me in their crashes.

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