Antisocial Riding

[Magneto]

I just finished watching some Brit cop show where they have clandestine cop bike rider that is baiting unsuspecting motorcycle riders into speeding challenge. There is also term “antisocial riding” being dropped a lot. I was bit surprised to be honest...

Q to our Brit members, is that symptom of next level of state interference with recreational activities, atop of cameras and points or just TV tabloid piece?

[Sparkie]

How can someone else bait you into speeding?  Aren't you in control of your own motorcycle?

[JZH]

Undercover police catching speeders is a thing in some police constabularies in the UK, but it's not universal.  They tend to operate in the usual "hot spots" like the Cat & Fiddle Pass.  They've got similar things in many European countries, e.g., France, where private contractors loaded up with ANPR and camera recording equipment drive around (speeding) on the motorways...  Soon we won't have to worry about getting caught speeding on our motorbikes--we won't have any motorbikes!

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

[Magneto]

2 hours ago, Sparkie said:

How can someone else bait you into speeding?  Aren't you in control of your own motorcycle?

 

Well, I am super easy to bait. That’s is why I never ride in group, just as a precaution. I have seen plain cars following and recording people it’s nothing new, but somehow notion that they would send dark rider to mess with and provoke people touches my nerve like true “antisocial behavior”.

[moroseduck]

I've never heard of that before, sounds like entrapment. Also, the cop can't break the speed limit either without breaking the law. 

 

Given the general casual attitude towards speed limits and silencer legality in the UK, I'm surprised they'd go to that much trouble to catch bikers - standing by the side of most roads on a sunny day would be enough! 

 

 

[Cogswell]

6 hours ago, JZH said:

Soon we won't have to worry about getting caught speeding on our motorbikes--we won't have any motorbikes!

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

 

Sad, but true.  Get out and ride 'em while you can . . .

 

[squirrelman]

2 hours ago, Cogswell said:

 

Sad, but true.  Get out and ride 'em while you can . . .

 

someday the manufacture and sale of gasoline will be prohibited by law....................

 

it's  easy to find flagrant examples of anti-social riding on youtube, any group ride will suffice.

[Magneto]

Nah. We will overcome. 

[Cogswell]

22 minutes ago, squirrelman said:

someday the manufacture and sale of gasoline will be prohibited by law....................

And all for nothing except to make the greedy billionaires even more billions. 

[Wald]

Well, I remember the days before cellphones and digital cameras when the "social" aspect of motorcycle riding was speeding and to race anybody who wanted to race (back then on back roads in Germany) There were certain meeting locations where you could always find somebody "to go for a walk" and some good discussions afterwards. Life was good back then!

[Cogswell]

To me that term might imply things such as lane splitting at high speeds on freeways - or any 4 lanes for that matter, racing on suburban streets, doing wheelies through neighborhoods - things where there are a lot of people around and the activity is raising the risk level all out of proportion.  Isn't that what might have been termed a hooligan?  Out on deserted backroads where there isn't much besides deer and jackrabbits it's tougher to make the case as for the most part the risk is mostly rising only for the rider.  As for being goaded in to a street race, each person has control of their right wrist and makes a conscious decision each moment they're riding.  The old saying "think with the big head, not the small one" would seem to apply to that.  Maybe that comes with age, dunno.  

[Magneto]

I do not like Orwellism labels being placed on daily benign activities. Perfect example with speed limits originally driven by fuel consumption but now carried over mainly for profit. Antisocial behavior in my book.

Big head? Such 19th century concept. We are driven by animal brain for any activity involving adrenaline... Hard wire.

[JZH]

"For profit" is a bit exaggerated.  There is no getting around the fact that lower speeds are statistically safer, so "saving lives" will always be a powerful justification for reducing speeds--and for some people, that means at any price.  We just have to elect the ones who think the price we pay now is already reasonable.

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

[FJ12Ryder]

"There is no getting around the fact that lower speeds are statistically safer"

 

Surely you don't believe that! I want to see the study and parameters of that study. That ranks right up there with "Speed Kills" and

"Just Say No". 🙂

[Magneto]

26 minutes ago, FJ12Ryder said:

"There is no getting around the fact that lower speeds are statistically safer"

 

Surely you don't believe that! I want to see the study and parameters of that study. That ranks right up there with "Speed Kills" and

"Just Say No". 🙂

 

Yup. Catchy phrases and made up studies to drive agenda, often money making. Based on my observations expressway safe speed in Florida is about 80 to 90 miles per hour, that’s for open country road. We can not legislate it into law without loosing federal allocation of our own tax money for highways upkeep. 

Line splitting another example, proven to be safer for riders, yet banned in most states based on false intuition argument. Forgot red light cameras increasing collisions at intersections?

 

On the other hand, hands off approach. Look at the helmet law, for years now free choice in Florida. I see some hard cores riding without one, while most do wear helmets on own reconnaissance. 

 

[DannoXYZ]

yup, people aren't idiots and will drive at comfortable speeds. On highways designed decades ago for 70mph,  modern vehicles have no issues with 80mph. Which happens to be average speeds on many European highways with no speed-limits anyway.

 

Looking at historical data, you'll see that each time speed limits are raised to be closer to natural comfortable speeds, fatalities decrease. 

 

1. when national speed limit was raised from 55mph to 65mph fatalities went down. CHP was major supporter of increasing speed limit

 

2. Montana removed speed limit completely. During this time, traffic fatalities dropped to lowest levels since records were kept.

 

3. When politicians forced Montana to re-implement speed-limits, traffic fatalities doubled.

 

https://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

 

https://laist.com/2018/12/12/speed_limits_going_up_in_la.php

 

https://priceonomics.com/is-every-speed-limit-too-low/

 

https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2013/09/16/hyde-perspectives-are-speed-limits-for-safety-or-revenue/#.YHHJabpHbYU

 

https://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/john-brennan/taxation-by-citation-fifty-more-bushels-of-corn-for-the-king/

[Magneto]

Great post Danno, I enjoyed the Montana reference, such a great read!

 

From engineering point of view we have to unpack what designing the expressway for 70 miles per hour speed mean. Road specifications were made to allow vehicles with rudimentary suspension and no brakes and no tires (sorry American muscle car lovers) to navigate through it. 

50 years later we drive science fiction space ships. Human factor remains though and people instinctively understand their limitations.

 

[Mohawk]

Yeah pretty common here, police have nothing better to do 😡

Worse in some euro locations. Baiting not necessary, but under cover cop bikes are common enough. I don't speed around strange bikes for this reason. 
 

Talk about some antisocial riding. Some of the vids I have seen re feral bike riding groups/gangs in the USA is bang out of order & has started to develop a following in various Euro locations including the UK. They really need to sink those groups.

 

 

[ShipFixer]

7 hours ago, FJ12Ryder said:

"There is no getting around the fact that lower speeds are statistically safer"

 

Surely you don't believe that! I want to see the study and parameters of that study. That ranks right up there with "Speed Kills" and

"Just Say No". 🙂

There's something to this in corners, but not highway speed.  All other factors combined, here in the military, "high corner speed" is the other factor after the obvious ones (inexperience, drinking, late night riding, no training, etc.).

 

Otherwise yeah...I feel safer at high speed on the highway than anywhere else, particularly when I am at least a few mph faster than the cars and moving around them vs. the other way around.

[ShipFixer]

I did a couple VFR group rides the last time I owned this bike and they were great, because the VFR is a grown up bike that attracts grown up sport riders.  (Which none of my non-rider friends believe, but...that's another story!)  All of the other group rides I've participated in were dumpster fires where there were people riding way beyond the limits of the street or, worse...their own limits.  Whether that's someone who is acting like it's a track day, or an inexperienced rider on a liter bike trying to push their boundaries and then slam on the brakes mid-corner...yikes.  

 

I'll ride with people I know are good, or friends who are beginners and just want to ride around but not in a jack ass way.  But that's about it, I have yet to come across an established group ride that's not a high risk event.

[Magneto]

27 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

...

 

Talk about some antisocial riding. Some of the vids I have seen re feral bike riding groups/gangs in the USA is bang out of order & has started to develop a following in various Euro locations including the UK. They really need to sink those groups.

 

 

 

Good observation Mohawk, but I think little off. We have civil rights demonstrations down here that are being performed on two wheels, with big event happening annually in Miami . It does create tension in enforcement community as people nonviolently but openly perform acts of civil disobedience. Backlash toward dirt/ dual bikes is one of reasons I am limiting use of my Husqvarna.

Similar undertones are in play in Europe, France comes to mind with frequent car burning events.

[FJ12Ryder]

3 hours ago, ShipFixer said:

There's something to this in corners, but not highway speed.  All other factors combined, here in the military, "high corner speed" is the other factor after the obvious ones (inexperience, drinking, late night riding, no training, etc.).

 

Otherwise yeah...I feel safer at high speed on the highway than anywhere else, particularly when I am at least a few mph faster than the cars and moving around them vs. the other way around.

I've always felt more comfortable moving a bit faster than traffic, and getting stuck in clots of cars makes me very uncomfortable. I feel that moving

a bit faster, maybe only a couple mph sometimes, allows me to act to avoid problems rather than re-act to an occurring problem.

[DannoXYZ]

yes, I prefer to be same or slightly faster than traffic. Can give it some throttle to get out of hairy situations. Such as someone moving into my lane without looking and seeing me. 

 

If I was slower and behind them when they moved over, I may not be able to stop in time.

[DannoXYZ]

Many years ago I saw pie-chart at local CA DMV breaking down various funding sources. Biggest slice of pie, 60-70% of their operating budget came from... yep, you got it... ticket citations!

 

When traffic cameras came out as way to automate citations, many cities reduced yellow-light duration. Contrary to studies which show longer yellow increases intersection safety and lowers crashes.

[Dutchy]

The flip side of the argument is that the funding for public services that would normally be sourced from tax, can now be directed to things like universal health care, promoting and facilitating people to register and vote no?

 

One knows what the rules are, and if you have demontrable have broken it, you pay. Plain and simple.

Do not like the rules? Vote (that is if you are affluent eneough to vote).

And FFS, accept the result of a ballot.   🙂

 

 

If you do not like that, move to Myamar or Yemen and see how your life will improve...

 

 

 

 

PS: you may call me Socialist Euro Trash if you like, no problem with that 🙂