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New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA


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This thread takes so many twists and turns, never know where the conversation will be when I check back in
 
First of all thanks for the answers up thread.
 
-As others have said, the modifications are part of the fun
-Power/Weight ratio is important but its not the final word - does anyone want to ride a 1000hp/1000lb bike, I certainly don't. Lightness is its own reward, I wish all the resources manufacturers had thrown at increasing power outputs had been focused on reducing weight. A 50hp 275lb bike would be amazing fun
-Speaking of big bore VFRs, the CBR-1000RR-R has a bore/stroke of 81mm by 48.5mm. Approx same stroke as the VFR so you could possibly utilize the lightweight conrods and associated hardware. I wonder if the 81mm bore would work. That would be quite a VFR1000
Cam regrind got me thinking and being a practical man I like the idea of the VTEC in the sense that you could get the second stage reground but still have low speed drivability. Although the transition may not be very nice.

And also the added benefit of keeping the low speed fuel economy.

this depends on the head room available with with Cam reprofiling.

I have sent an email off to Elgin cams see what they have to say about it.
And as with most of the replies I get from these kinds of companies they'll probably tell me it's not worth it and to bugger off. I always seem to find myself going down the path of most resistance. Like fuel injecting my DR 650 as an example .... " why the hell would you do that?"

Sent from my ASUS_I01WD using Tapatalk

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NO FRICKIN' WAY! When a project hits a couple of the 'just one more week' cycles, it raises one's eyebrow a bit. But here is physical molecular evidence of the cause of giant ____-eating grins on the

A pre-production prototype header assembly with specifications nearly identical to the Two Brothers Racing [TBR] 5th gen VFR 800 header is now being constructed in southern California.   Th

Took my first 100 mile ride today on the Honda 8thGen Interceptor after the VFRD performance upgrades. Flawless. Zero issues. Magnificent. I'm just blown away about how much better this bike is now. I

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Check out HighSideNZ's engine thread - he bored his to 825cc using CBR pistons (IDR which ones - 954?) - that's about the limit.  There's not enough material to take it much larger.  Not for the faint of heart.  

 

An idea for a custom VTEC motor is to pin the VTEC valves open using the adjustment pins. I don't know that anyone has done that and written about it.  It would add to the reciprocating mass of each valve assembly,  but when you see the pins they're tiny and it would seem to be insignificant. You'd have maybe the only 4valve all the time VTEC out there. 

 

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6 hours ago, Cogswell said:

… You'd have maybe the only 4valve all the time VTEC out there. 

 

Ah but wouldn't be VTEC then would it. 😀

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12 hours ago, lplplplp said:

ahhh, so stock cams? interesting...

If you're referring to Mohawk's bike, then that would be wrong-ish. Their profile is not stock at all (based on RC45), but I seem to recall he had stock cams reground rather than completely new manufactured items. I could be wrong about that last though.

 

I do however think we are straying way off topic here and we should really be sticking to the WILD exhaust system. I am far from blameless in this I know, but I think we should get back on track and curtail our 'flights of fancy'.

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If you're referring to Mohawk's bike, then that would be wrong-ish. Their profile is not stock at all (based on RC45), but I seem to recall he had stock cams reground rather than completely new manufactured items. I could be wrong about that last though.

 

I do however think we are straying way off topic here and we should really be sticking to the WILD exhaust system. I am far from blameless in this I know, but I think we should get back on track and curtail our 'flights of fancy'.

agreed!, my fault...

 

Sent from my ASUS_I01WD using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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On 9/17/2020 at 10:31 PM, lplplplp said:

ahhh, so stock cams? 
 

No they have been upgraded, same lift more duration. 

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I’m just sitting here dreaming of the day I can slap these headers on with the new mid pipe to the fmf apex cans I have sitting on the garage floor . 

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10 hours ago, Gotama said:

I’m just sitting here dreaming of the day I can slap these headers on with the new mid pipe to the fmf apex cans I have sitting on the garage floor . 


Rare stuff!

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Back a few entries on this thread someone mentioned pinning the VTec valves so as they are always engaged.

I believe that this can cause issues with low oil pressure at low RPM due to the volume of oil that bypasses when the valves are in VTec mode.

I can't prove this but it would be something that would be well worthwhile understanding BEFORE embarking down this track.

 

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8 hours ago, lplplplp said:

any updates? getting closer to next run?


We proposed to Wade that we’d consider paying his mandrel tube-bending subcontractor the total amount for bending his minimum order of 15 sets even though we’d only be purchasing 10 sets. Thanks to VFRD member Dangeruss for this creative potential solution. The minimum order is the bender’s requirement, not Wade’s. The response was a bit cryptic, so we are continuing the conversation in an attempt to get a clear answer.

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14 hours ago, sfdownhill said:


We proposed to Wade that we’d consider paying his mandrel tube-bending subcontractor the total amount for bending his minimum order of 15 sets even though we’d only be purchasing 10 sets. Thanks to VFRD member Dangeruss for this creative potential solution. The minimum order is the bender’s requirement, not Wade’s. The response was a bit cryptic, so we are continuing the conversation in an attempt to get a clear answer.

sweet, all good, just curious if some movement.

 

sounds like a good idea.  but sounds like someone would have to pony up for the extra sets???

 

either way no really hurry. 

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8 hours ago, lplplplp said:

 

sounds like a good idea.  but sounds like someone would have to pony up for the extra sets???


We don’t see ponying up for extra sets of headers as a feasible option.


We’re checking to see if the tube-bending guy might get started on our current order if he gets paid for bending 15 sets, but only has to bend tubes for ~ 10 sets.

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17 hours ago, sfdownhill said:


We don’t see ponying up for extra sets of headers as a feasible option.


We’re checking to see if the tube-bending guy might get started on our current order if he gets paid for bending 15 sets, but only has to bend tubes for ~ 10 sets.

is this the official thread for these headers?

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7 hours ago, lplplplp said:

is this the official thread for these headers?

Yes. Myself and sfdownhill are the two main members involved with this project, so if the thread was created by either of us, then it could be considered as "official". Although there are a few other members who hand a hand in getting this to come to fruition.

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6 hours ago, Duc2V4 said:

Yes. Myself and sfdownhill are the two main members involved with this project, so if the thread was created by either of us, then it could be considered as "official". Although there are a few other members who hand a hand in getting this to come to fruition.

No worries , I mentioned the thread over on FB vfr Australia group. see if any bites.

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4 hours ago, Alvinvfr800 said:

What about the supercharger for the vfr? Dose that still around

I’m sure if you do a search you can find it 

the super charger is driven off the timing pully and isn’t a turbo driven off the exhaust .

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6 hours ago, Alvinvfr800 said:

What about the supercharger for the vfr? Dose that still around

To my knowledgedge. A&A Perf. no longer makes them. I had 2 of them, and sold both. Cog got one of them. 

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On 12/29/2018 at 8:39 PM, sfdownhill said:

A pre-production prototype header assembly with specifications nearly identical to the Two Brothers Racing [TBR] 5th gen VFR 800 header is now being constructed in southern California.

 

This is a new thread duplicating a post on the VFRD '5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build' thread. The objective of this new thread is to give the project described below an opportunity to stand on its own four cylinders. There is a metric ton of valuable data and opinion on the old thread, so if you're new to VFR headers and curious about the gestation of this project, don't deny yourself the pleasure of reviewing it.

 
Here is photographic evidence of the work in progress. This photo shows the jig that has been fabricated in order to get the proper layout of the performance headers. Photos taken 12/26/2018:
654277571_small20181226_150915.jpg.46ce3b5f1a5cd9868140a442032da039.jpg283617769_small20181226_150833.jpg.8f21a61f958e2e50f1aaa45ae2537f36.jpg
 
 
*Acknowledgements:
 
From the start of this project, we knew we'd need help, and so sought assistance from some very well respected, long time VFRD members.
 
Special thanks to VFRD member Cornercarver for the generous and trusting loan of his prized, irreplaceable [Until now!] set of original TBR headers.
 
We also would like to thank VFRD member RVFR for his support of this effort through contributions from the 2017 gofundme header fund.
 
Contributing members - all massively experienced and extremely helpful - include but are not limited to: Sebspeed, Cornercarver, TimmytheCop, MiniCarver, BusyLittleShop, BuzznerSuntrusts, RVFR, Mohawk, Mello Dude, CandyRedRC46, Stray, keef, voided76, and 3dcycle. Our sincere thanks to all these individuals and others for their wise counsel. Without you, we could neither be getting a prototype built, nor could we have established a path to a production version of this performance header.
 
 
*General information / major bullet points:
 
[1] The production version of the performance header assembly described here will be hand built in southern California and cost $790.00 plus shipping from the manufacturer. California residents need to add 7.75% state sales tax.
 
[2] The header will fit 5th and 6th gen VFR800s. [8th gen owners, see Note 'a' below]
 
[3] The header will go into production when orders for 15 units are received with a $200 deposit per unit.
 
[4] The prototype header is scheduled to be completed by 1/11/2019.
 
[5] A baseline dyno run of a VFR fitted with 98/99 headers and same day/same dyno full tune of the same VFR with prototype header installed is scheduled for the week of 1/14/2019. [Dyno testing methodology is detailed under 'Dyno testing procedure']
 
[6] The list below of deposits received will be kept updated, and we will be adding a second list of individuals interested in seeing the dyno results before placing a deposit.
 
If you are interested, PM us and let us know the following:
a] which gen VFR [5th, 6th, or 8th] you would like a header for
b] which fueling management system you use or intend to use
c] which slipon muffler/midpipe you have or will use
d] if you intend to have your exhaust system dyno tuned
e] if more than one unit, how many headers you are interested in purchasing
f] if you are placing a deposit
 
*A LIST - 5th gen/6th gen header orders with deposits received:
1-Duc2V4           5th gen          Rapid Bike                                TBR slipon                               yes dyno tune        1  5/6th [maybe 2nd header for 6th gen]
2-VFR7503        6th gen          PC3                                           has TBR and Leo Vince          maybe dyno            1  5/6th
3-WackenSS      5th gen          PC3 [RB in future]                     Leo Vince                               yes dyno                  1  5/6th
4-jim v                6th gen          PC3 [maybe RB in future]          Micron                                    yes dyno                  1  5/6th [maybe full system]
5-MadScientist   5th gen          PCV w autotune                        Micron low, MIG high               autotune [maybe dyno]  1  5/6th
6-bornes            6th gen          Rapid Bike                                SC Project CR-T                      yes dyno                 1  5/6th
7-Airisom           5th gen          PC3 or PCV                               Delkevic                                  yes dyno                  1   5/6th
8-CornerCarver 5th gen          PC2 or better                             Wolf [sweet!]                               yes dyno                  3   5/6th
9-CC                  5 eng in 6 chassis PCV                                    Staintune                                yes dyno
10-CC                6th gen           Rapid Bike                                 OEM                                       
11-Sebspeed      5th gen                                                                                                                                             1  5/6th
12-Mbrane          5th gen          PC [which PC TBD]                    miscellaneous                         yes dyno                    2  5/6th
13-MBrane
14-interceptor69 5th                PC3                                                 Vance & Hines                           no dyno                        1 5/6th
15-3Dcycle         6th gen                                                                                                                                          1 5/6th
16-moosemoose 5th gen          RB                                             Delkevic                                                                   1 5/6th
17-sfdownhill       5th gen          PC3                                           Staintune                                 yes dyno                   1 5/6th
18-EX-XX            5th gen           PC2                                             Custom midpipe/slipon                 yes dyno                     1 5/6th
19-GreginDenver 5th gen         TBD                                                                                                                                             1 5/6th
20-Funkatron     5th gen          PC3                                                 TBR                                            maybe dyno                    1 5/6th
21-Tirso              5th gen          PC3/PCV w auto                           Staintune                                        no dyno                     1 5/6th
22-8th gen prototype
 
LIST 8 - 8th gen headers with deposits received
1-HighSideNZ  8th gen header  6 chassis /825cc 5eng/front rad  Rapid Bike Leo Vince                                                  1  8th
2-Fz6wja                                                                                                                                                                                           1  8th
3-samuelx                                 PCV                                                  Yoshimura                                      yes dyno                     1  8th
 
*B LIST - parties interested in purchasing a 5th/6th gen and/or 8th gen header who prefer to wait before placing a deposit:
-Samuelx        8th gen          RB or PCV                                  current Delk, Yosh, OEM         maybe dyno            1  8th
-Voided76      8th gen           Rapid Bike                                 Assorted slipons                                                       1  8th
-Stray              8th gen header front rad 5th                                                                                                                1  8th                                                                               
-boOZZIE        6th gen          Rapid Bike                                  Micron                                        yes dyno                  1  5/6th
-RC51Nick      6th gen          Rapid Bike/autotune                Staintune                                    autotune                  1 5/6th
-carlgustav     6th gen          Rapid Bike                                  M4                                               no dyno                   1  5/6th
-CornerCarver  8th gen header front rad 5 eng in 6 chassis PCV Staintune                        yes dyno                  2  8th
                         8th gen header front rad Torocharged 6 gen Rapid Bike  Staintune            looking for a dyno capable of handling it
-Sebspeed      8th gen                                                                                                                                                      1 8th
-MooseMoose 5th gen       Rapid Bike/MyBikeTunig          Delkevic                                                                         1 5/6th     
-adkfinn          5 gen              PC3                                             Black Widow                             yes dyno                    1 5/6th
-fly750            8th gen                                                                                                                                                       1 8th
-neo2122        6th gen         OEM/PC3                                    Delkevic                                     yes dyno                    1  5/6th
-wholepailofwater 5th gen     OEM/TBD                                   Staintune                                                           1 5/6th
 
 

 

*Background:

 
Over the past year, VFRD member Duc2V4 and I have made an exhaustive [ouch!] search for a manufacturer/fabricator qualified and willing to produce a reasonably-priced, high quality "replica" of the Two Brothers Racing 5th gen header assembly. The TBR is the accepted standard in production VFR performance exhaust systems. After unproductive efforts with several fabricators, in August of this year we were referred to and contacted a gentleman named Wade, founder of an established southern California exhaust manufacturing firm. Wade expressed interest in taking on this project. Communications about and development of this project have continued with Wade since August and resulted in the construction of the fixture pictured above, along with a pre-production prototype header, a dyno testing schedule, and a commitment to build a production run of 15 units.
 
 
*Dyno testing procedure:
 
Testing will consist of a baseline dyno run of a 5th gen VFR with OEM 98/99 headers installed [See Note b below]. After the baseline run, the test VFR's 98/99 headers will be removed and replaced with the prototype performance header assembly. On the same day as the baseline run, a full dyno tune will be performed on the subject VFR with performance header installed. The dyno tune will be performed on the same dyno by the same dyno technician, with the same air filter, same fuel management system, and same midpipe/muffler.
[Test subject VFR is described in 'Test bike']
 
 
*Some dimensions, features, and specifications of the header will be taken from the TBR.
The new header will incorporate the following specifications from the original TBR header design:
-header construction will be from 18 gauge 304 stainless steel tubing, [0.049"/1.24mm wall thickness]
-header will have 38mm od primary tubes [1.5" od]
-header will have 41.5mm od secondary tubes [1 5/8" od]
-header will have 51mm od collector tubing [2" od]
-header's rear primary tube junctions will be fastened by spring tension fittings
-header's left front and left rear primary tubes will merge
-header's right front and right rear primary tubes will merge
-header will have no crossover of front or rear primary tubes
-header's collector exit tube will have a 51mm od [See Note c below]
-header's tubing will be mandrel bent
 
 
*Some specifications will be changed from original TBR header design.
To align with the VFR community's objectives and improve durability, the header will incorporate the following changes to the original TBR header design:
-header's collector exit pipe will be modified to match position and angle of OEM collector exit pipe
-midpipe/muffler/clamp to be supplied by customer [See Note c below]
-midpipe/muffler to be fastened to header collector exit pipe by clamp
[Clamp not supplied with header]
-header will have two O2 sensor bosses at 2000-2009 OEM header's O2 sensor locations: one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after left front/left rear primary merge, one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after right front/right rear primary merge
-right rear primary tube of all headers will be mandrel bent to provide 1/16" clearance from rear head cam chain tensioner when installed on 6th gen VFRs
-header's stud nut tension flanges will be 1/4" thick stainless steel [See Note d below]
-header's collars at head end of primary tubes will be reinforced and length adjusted for 1/4" head stud fixing flanges
-header's internal flow surfaces at head end collar joints of primary tubes will be finished smooth/flush [See Note e below]
 
 
*Wade's credentials:
Wade designed and built exhausts for Kerker Exhaust Systems from 1980-1988. Since founding his own exhaust fabrication business in 1989, he has produced custom, prototype, and production exhaust systems and components for numerous individuals and manufacturers, including Two Brothers Racing. He builds a production aftermarket full exhaust system for a current non-Honda V4-powered motorcycle. Here are two of his current projects. Photos taken 12/27/2018 and 12/28/2018 :

765448509_smallwork1.jpg.3846b3fed1f9d8f0c7ac8a1704954f28.jpg437507577_smallwork2.jpg.89fa366c46a57ddcc00ba666c7b89875.jpg

1704453122_smallwork3.jpg.24c5c28b4621cafe13d2b13d11486114.jpg1730889884_smallwork4.jpg.8713a92380ad4f1677f5d93d04ca49c3.jpg

423844924_smallwork5.jpg.1bef04c5c1deaf89529cd566854e7938.jpg1236302504_smallwork6.jpg.eeda2f6f5ec3c86b08132727fc9ec41e.jpg

1819801129_smallwork9.jpg.54c53bb02ea287a81039ad468e538f79.jpg

 

 

 
*Test bike:
 
For initial testing, we will use this motorcycle [Or possibly our 6th gen - see Note b below]:
2001 California 5th gen with 60,000 miles
K&N big mouth air filter [See Note f below]
PC III USB, map dyno tuned in 2013 with OEM California ECU, no O2 sensors installed
Dynojet O2 sensor resistor terminations installed on OEM O2 sensor leads
OEM 49 state ECU now installed, PC III not retuned, no O2 sensors installed
OEM 98/99 VFR headers ceramic coated with Staintune high mount slipon.
Maintenance performed before dyno testing:
New air filter, new Denso iridium IUH27#4 plugs, valve clearance adjustment, injectors professionally calibrated, starter valves synched, new thermostat, new silicon coolant hoses, new Engine Ice coolant, oil and filter changed w Mobil 1 0w-30 and Purolator PBL14610 filter
 
 
*Notes:
 
Note a - an 8th gen version of the performance header with 'widely spaced' front primaries is in the works for a production run to follow the initial production run of 5th/6th gen headers.
 
Note b - If there is significantly greater interest in proving the prototype header on a 6th gen, we have a 6th gen standing by and can use it for the dyno baseline run and test/tuning instead of the 5th gen. For 6th gen test/tuning, we will use the same dyno testing procedure at the same test/tune facility as described for the initial 5th gen test/tune. The 6th gen available for testing currently has ceramic coated 98/99 headers installed with gutted OEM mufflers and a PCV. We would obtain open flowing aftermarket 6th gen slipon mufflers to optimize testing of the prototype header.
 
Note c - Wade recommends keeping the the 51mm od collector exit pipe instead of reducing it to the OEM exit pipe's 49mm od for the following reasons:
1 - it is probable that reducing the collector diameter will have a [small] negative effect on top end performance
2 - Wade uses premanufactured tubing merges of very high quality. Reducing the collector diameter would mean that the collector merge exit diameter would be too large for the 49mm od exit pipe, and the labor required to adapt the two components would raise the cost.
3 - purchasers of a replica header who want to use aftermarket slipons can have the collector end of their slipon expanded to fit the 51mm od exit pipe by any competent exhaust/muffler shop. Two Brothers slipons  and OEM mufflers will require exhaust wrap to function as a gasket in place of the OEM 'donut' gasket.
4 - the collector joint of all slipon midpipes we could think of except TBR are 2" od and slotted at the clamping end. Wade was concerned that a 2" od midpipe that has been slotted to clamp onto the OEM collector pipe is likely to tear at the base of the slots when expanded.
IMPORTANT - when having a slipon's midpipe expanded to fit this performance header, make certain the muffler shop expands it gradually in two or more small steps. Wade recommends drilling a relief hole at the muffler side ends of the midpipe's slots to distribute stress and reduce the possibility of tearing. Wade tested the viability of expanded slotted 304 stainless steel 18 gauge 2" od tubing by slotting a piece of 2" tubing while I was at his facility. He then expanded the slotted end of the tube in two steps to fit over the 51mm od collector exit pipe with no tearing at the slots.
 
Note d - Here is Wade's 1/4" thick stainless steel head stud nut tension flange:
1687569010_smallwork7.jpg.85661739982bb4d81adc59f92242d117.jpg
 
Here is the original TBR head stud nut tension flange [Note that flange is bent from tension]:
1483054119_smallwork8.jpg.ab511eade0561046fbacea8b6b083aed.jpg
 
Note e - Original TBR has rough, unfinished joints in the internal flow surfaces at head end collars of primary tubes
 
Note f - See RVFR's June 8 2017 post on page 5 of vfrd thread '5th & 6th VFR 800 header build' for photos of standard vs big mouth K&N air filters. Both filters have K&N part number HA-8098
 
Note g - Significant improvement can be achieved over OEM gas flow through the exhaust port into the header primaries by using crush gaskets that do not intrude into the gas flow path when installed. The id of OEM VFR crush gaskets reduces to around 30.41mm when installed with header stud nuts torqued to spec. The exhaust port id is 32.45mm - that's a 2mm reduction in gas flow passage diameter. To solve this, we will be confirming Mohawk's recommendation to use GSXR750 crush gaskets between the performance header primaries and the VFR's head.
 
Note h - Wade has expressed a modest willingness to build complete exhaust systems in high or low mount configurations for 5th gen VFRs. These full systems would have the same specs as the full systems that were the only configuration in which TBR sold the VFR headers - the TBR headers were only available with a matching midpipe and muffler/canister. Mufflers built by Wade would be available in metal or carbon fiber. We neglected to ask Wade which metals he uses for muffler/canisters or what a full system would cost, but soon will ask him to specify materials and pricing. We have not yet introduced the possibility of Wade building a 6th gen full system, but will ask him if he'd consider it.

Just reposting the original topic so that someone just tuning in to this thread can catch up 

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I just now noticed this thread.  Is this still on?  My VFR is about to pop out of a moving truck in San Diego too.  I assume it would work with stock mufflers?  Is a RB or PC necessary?  Not like I couldn't get one at the same time, just curious.  

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13 hours ago, ShipFixer said:

I just now noticed this thread.  Is this still on?  My VFR is about to pop out of a moving truck in San Diego too.  I assume it would work with stock mufflers?  Is a RB or PC necessary?  Not like I couldn't get one at the same time, just curious.  

Yes this is still happening.  It appears that we (those of us already in with deposits on the current group-purchase) have stalled out below the number of header systems required for an order to go forward to production.  So if you come in and add yourself to those who've placed deposits we'll be closer to "go!".

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Since this thread has become the all-things-custom-headers-thread I'm posting here.......

 

I was in on the first batch of custom headers and after install it was immediately clear that the bike would benefit from a dyno tune. Surge at small, constant throttle openings, a general lack of crisp response to inputs, etc. This wasn't a surprise, I was actually pleased - the motor needing more fuel because its moving more air is a good thing

 

Here's my experience -

  1. I wanted to try the Rapid Bike system based on my web research but ultimately went with a Power Commander. Not my decision really, any reputable shop within a reasonable distance was far more experienced with the PC. One was willing to try the RB but my bike would have been patient #1.
  2. My header has 3 O2 ports, one for each pair of cylinders and one downstream of the merge. Unfortunately, the header pairs the left & right cylinders (iow a front and rear). The technician highly preferred front-front & rear-rear cylinders for tuning purposes. As he said, the temp difference between front and rear cylinders is large enough to make a difference. We ended up using the single O2 port past the merge to tune
  3. We didn't go for ultimate power but rather smooth throttle response. Even so everyone wants to see the numbers so Max HP = 106.0 Max T = 55.2. Dynoplot down below
  4. Mods are WiLD headers, flow balanced injectors, Pipercross air filter, Micron exhaust cans
  5. Results - throttle response is much, much better now. Crisp, linear, no surging, no stumbling - puts a smile on my face each time I open it up. Sadly riding season is almost over around here 😞

 

Dyno Plot VFR800.pdf

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