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sfdownhill

New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

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5 minutes ago, Rush2112 said:

With this arrangement You can use a single Rapidbike wide band O2 sensor in conjunction with your 2 stock O2 sensors. The Rapidbike will send a constant message to your ECU that everything is cool with the fuel mixture and and you won’t get any error codes for missing O2 sensors while the wide band sensor will adjust the actual A/F ratio to whatever you target. This will keep you from throwing “Check Engine” error codes and entering “Limp Home” mode because the O2 sensors are actually reading a too rich condition (if you target 13.1 A/F ratio for optimum power).

You are correct though, putting three 18mm bungs would have been more flexible because it would have allowed the use of two wide band O2 sensors for those who wanted too but you would have to have wired in resistors into the stock O2 sensors wiring harness to trick the ECU into thinking the stock sensors are still there.  
The current set up is the most user friendly and easiest to set up for the greatest number of people. 

Sorry, 5.5 gen and 6th gen have two stock O2 sensors... I think 8th gen has one. I apologize if I caused any confusion. The same explanation applies though. 

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Hi Wingate - and thanks Rush for helping fill in a couple blanks.

 

Short version - we hope Rapid Bike autotune feature adapts to 8 gens the same way it adapts to 2000-2001 5 gens and all 6 gens - that RB leaves the single 12mm OEM O2 sensor on the 8 gen connected and employs a single added 18mm wideband O2 sensor to send air/fuel readings to the RB. This is what the headers are configured for.

 

But we are not certain whether this is the case. Yet. We hope.

 

We selected one 12mm bung so guys who bought the new headers could still use their single 12mm OEM O2 sensor. VFRD member Samuelx, owner of the 8 gen test bike, is using Power Commander 5 and has kept his OEM O2 sensor and all is well - no FI warning light or other flags. It is not an autotune system. On Samuelx's bike we were able to use the 18mm bung for Attack Performance's wideband sensor when the bike was on their dyno - this is more accurate than a 'sniffer' inserted into the tailpipe. We did have to purchase a 12" extension cable for the OEM O2 sensor to reach back to the new headers' collector exit, because placing the 12mm bung in the collector exit pushed it 12" further back than the front-of-catalytic-converter position of the OEM bung. This position allows air/fuel readings from all four cylinders combined. 

[The O2 sensor extension cable sells for $11 on ebay and is described as being for Honda Civic autos. Do NOT purchase the 12" O2 sensor extension cable for Acuras you might find on ebay, as it looks like it uses the same connector, but it does not. Ask me how I know].

 

We added the 18mm bung to 8 gen headers - also in the collector exit where it samples gases from all four cylinders - so that the wideband O2 sensor that Rush2112 described as a "single Rapidbike wide band O2 sensor" would function properly on 8 gen VFRs.

 

We know the Rapid Bike autotune can use the third [wideband] sensor along with the two OEM sensors on 2000-2001 5 gen VFRs and all 6 gen VFRs [Duc2V4 is using this setup on both his 2001 and on his 2009]. After checking in with Duc2V4, neither of us are certain that one must use three sensors with a RB autotune on 5, 6, OR 8 gen VFRs.

 

This is strictly a guess on my part, but it might be that RB sets up their autotune system to use the two OEM sensors on VFRs that have two OEM bungs/sensors simply because the two bungs are there, and they both happen to be full of sensors. I think I recall that with RB wideband sensors are an upgrade option, but OEM narrow band can be used - I could be wrong here. Duc2V4 can speak to this [And I hope he will - I'm floundering a bit].

 

What we hope for 8 gen owners who purchase new headers and are aiming for a RB with autotune is that RB sets up their system for 8 gen to use one 18mm wideband O2 sensor in conjunction with the single OEM sensor in the 12mm bung.

[Please note the amount of restraint required to not add 'hole' after 'bung']

Since I'm listing and describing things I do not know, I'll add that I do not know if the the 8 gen's single 12mm OEM O2 sensor is wideband or narrow.

 

The new performance 8 gen headers have an 18mm bung because 18mm is the size we know for certain that quality Bosch wideband O2 sensors come in; they are sold by both RB and Dynojet [Power Commander] and are used by most dyno tuning facilities.

 

Bottom line - more research is needed.

 

**Anyone who can help develop a definitive answer to how an 8 gen VFR implements a Rapid Bike autotune system, please do chime in here**

Edited by sfdownhill

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On 11/9/2019 at 1:53 PM, sfdownhill said:

This is strictly a guess on my part, but it might be that RB sets up their autotune system to use the two OEM sensors on VFRs that have two OEM bungs/sensors simply because the two bungs are there, and they both happen to be full of sensors. I think I recall that with RB wideband sensors are an upgrade option, but OEM narrow band can be used - I could be wrong here. Duc2V4 can speak to this [And I hope he will - I'm floundering a bit].

 

What we hope for 8 gen owners who purchase new headers and are aiming for a RB with autotune is that RB sets up their system for 8 gen to use one 18mm wideband O2 sensor in conjunction with the single OEM sensor in the 12mm bung.

[Please note the amount of restraint required to not add 'hole' after 'bung']

 

**Anyone who can help develop a definitive answer to how an 8 gen VFR implements a Rapid Bike autotune system, please do chime in here**

You are correct, sir... the Rapidbike can use the narrow band OEM sensors with a standard map or the upgrade Autotune with a wideband O2 sensor.

 

 

Heh, heh, heh... Bung-holio!

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 7:36 PM, Rush2112 said:

Sorry, 5.5 gen and 6th gen have two stock O2 sensors... I think 8th gen has one. I apologize if I caused any confusion. The same explanation applies though. 

 

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 10:53 AM, sfdownhill said:

Hi Wingate - and thanks Rush for helping fill in a couple blanks.

 

Short version - we hope Rapid Bike autotune feature adapts to 8 gens the same way it adapts to 2000-2001 5 gens and all 6 gens - that RB leaves the single 12mm OEM O2 sensor on the 8 gen connected and employs a single added 18mm wideband O2 sensor to send air/fuel readings to the RB. This is what the headers are configured for.

 

But we are not certain whether this is the case. Yet. We hope.

 

We selected one 12mm bung so guys who bought the new headers could still use their single 12mm OEM O2 sensor. VFRD member Samuelx, owner of the 8 gen test bike, is using Power Commander 5 and has kept his OEM O2 sensor and all is well - no FI warning light or other flags. It is not an autotune system. On Samuelx's bike we were able to use the 18mm bung for Attack Performance's wideband sensor when the bike was on their dyno - this is more accurate than a 'sniffer' inserted into the tailpipe. We did have to purchase a 12" extension cable for the OEM O2 sensor to reach back to the new headers' collector exit, because placing the 12mm bung in the collector exit pushed it 12" further back than the front-of-catalytic-converter position of the OEM bung. This position allows air/fuel readings from all four cylinders combined. 

[The O2 sensor extension cable sells for $11 on ebay and is described as being for Honda Civic autos. Do NOT purchase the 12" O2 sensor extension cable for Acuras you might find on ebay, as it looks like it uses the same connector, but it does not. Ask me how I know].

 

We added the 18mm bung to 8 gen headers - also in the collector exit where it samples gases from all four cylinders - so that the wideband O2 sensor that Rush2112 described as a "single Rapidbike wide band O2 sensor" would function properly on 8 gen VFRs.

 

We know the Rapid Bike autotune can use the third [wideband] sensor along with the two OEM sensors on 2000-2001 5 gen VFRs and all 6 gen VFRs [Duc2V4 is using this setup on both his 2001 and on his 2009]. After checking in with Duc2V4, neither of us are certain that one must use three sensors with a RB autotune on 5, 6, OR 8 gen VFRs.

 

This is strictly a guess on my part, but it might be that RB sets up their autotune system to use the two OEM sensors on VFRs that have two OEM bungs/sensors simply because the two bungs are there, and they both happen to be full of sensors. I think I recall that with RB wideband sensors are an upgrade option, but OEM narrow band can be used - I could be wrong here. Duc2V4 can speak to this [And I hope he will - I'm floundering a bit].

 

What we hope for 8 gen owners who purchase new headers and are aiming for a RB with autotune is that RB sets up their system for 8 gen to use one 18mm wideband O2 sensor in conjunction with the single OEM sensor in the 12mm bung.

[Please note the amount of restraint required to not add 'hole' after 'bung']

Since I'm listing and describing things I do not know, I'll add that I do not know if the the 8 gen's single 12mm OEM O2 sensor is wideband or narrow.

 

The new performance 8 gen headers have an 18mm bung because 18mm is the size we know for certain that quality Bosch wideband O2 sensors come in; they are sold by both RB and Dynojet [Power Commander] and are used by most dyno tuning facilities.

 

Bottom line - more research is needed.

 

**Anyone who can help develop a definitive answer to how an 8 gen VFR implements a Rapid Bike autotune system, please do chime in here**

Gents, Thank you both for your thorough replies. You both jogged my memory a bit (the RB has been sitting on the bench a while waiting for the headers) and, indeed, the RBR does work off the two OEM narrow bands (On the Rapidbike/Cyclepro website, it does state you must use the RBR in conjunction with the OEM sensors if your bike's equipped with them). Other experience on this forum suggests  run with wide bands only - via My Tuning Bike; apparently, as per Yaman, you can't hook the wide-bands directly to the RB module (from the RB.US website: "If the stock O2 (Lambda) sensor/s have been disabled by an ECU flash or with installation of a factory option race ecu or an aftermarket ecu  then My Tuning Bike Module/s can be used by itself").  So, I think your guess is correct, Downhill, and you can run one MTB in addition to the two (or one) OEM narrow. Finally, just to be clear, the RB doesn't actually need to have a wide-band connected to work; it is designed to work with the OEM narrow-bands but just requires more KM/miles to dial in. The wide-band allows for more instantaneous feedback.  CandyRedRC46 is one of the forum's resident knowledge boxes on all things RB, and there is a RBR vs. RB Evo thread here in the archives somewhere. Agree with Rush2112's observation the 12mm OEM narrow-band and 18MM wide-band bung combo are the most user friendly combo for many.

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I’ve been using just wide Band for years with my RBRacing module. 
The narrow band sensors are just looped together on the RRR harness. I use both the original O2 sensor feeds to power the MTB wideband sensor, you have to use both as the Wideband sensor draws to much current for one feed to supply it.

 

As an FYI You only need power through on stock O2 sensor feed to keep the Fi light out. Because the alameda signal is not seen the ECU defaults to a rich map. It is this map you use the RBR or PC3/5 to correct.

 

Have fun 👍

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