Member Contributer Mohawk Posted January 8, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 8, 2015 Just so you know, in MotoGP, they have to make 5 engines last the entire season. There are no rebuilds any more and hasn't been that way for years. I know but that is NOT quite accurate, but mine has to last for years with basic servicing which was the point & I don't have a team of engineers & technicians that ARE allowed to change the gearbox internals & wearing parts i.e. clutches, fluid etc, they just can't remove the head, split the cases nor replace the main internals, crank, rods, pistons, bearings etc. And now my memory has kicked in MotoGP does NOT use DCT, its banned. They use a weird version that acts like DCT, but it's NOT DCT as invoked on the VFR1200 etc. http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-racing-news-moto-gp/is-the-dct-system-being-used-by-hrc---update/17364.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Just so you know, in MotoGP, they have to make 5 engines last the entire season. There are no rebuilds any more and hasn't been that way for years. I know but that is NOT quite accurate, but mine has to last for years with basic servicing which was the point & I don't have a team of engineers & technicians that ARE allowed to change the gearbox internals & wearing parts i.e. clutches, fluid etc, they just can't remove the head, split the cases nor replace the main internals, crank, rods, pistons, bearings etc. And now my memory has kicked in MotoGP does NOT use DCT, its banned. They use a weird version that acts like DCT, but it's NOT DCT as invoked on the VFR1200 etc. http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-racing-news-moto-gp/is-the-dct-system-being-used-by-hrc---update/17364.html Right i just posted that, its made by "Zero Shift" and called "Seamless Shift". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volfy Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I don't imagine too many do give a toss what others think of their bikes, but I can understand how it pisses them off when comments like those above are made, without necessity IMO. First 2 parts of your sentence contradict each other. If a rider doesn't give a toss what others think of his bike, why would he get pissed off when others make comments about his bike? As for "without necessity"... this thread asks "what does the bike industry think of DCT?" We, as riders, are an integral part of the bike industry. We are simply answering the question, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted January 8, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 8, 2015 I don't imagine too many do give a toss what others think of their bikes, but I can understand how it pisses them off when comments like those above are made, without necessity IMO. First 2 parts of your sentence contradict each other. If a rider doesn't give a toss what others think of his bike, why would he get pissed off when others make comments about his bike? As for "without necessity"... this thread asks "what does the bike industry think of DCT?" We, as riders, are an integral part of the bike industry. We are simply answering the question, no? Sometimes, it's not what you say but how you say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volfy Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Would it make everybody feel better, if we put "... and I don't mean that in a bad way." at the end of every sentence? Sorry, couldn't resist the Dom Irrera reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearWhyne Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 But what about the added gyroscopic effect..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROHECHT Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I have a Dual clutch car and I always shift manually and I enjoy the many ways I can choose to drive. There is even a launch mode where I can hold the brake and rev to 4k rpm and the clutch engages when the brake is let off. Whether I shift using the paddles or stick I feel I have lost nothing from the driving experience. And although I understand the "being involved mentality", I just wish there were more model and make options to choose from with DCT. The reason why is that 6 years ago I had an injury to my left hand leaving me with a thumb and a couple fingers that do not move. I have digit numbers 6, 8 and 10 left and only my thumb moves on the left hand. I want to continue riding but the very few models available are doing nothing for me. I keep looking each year and find a couple of Honda models only. Perhaps they could integrate a manual and DCT so the operator has the choice...but if I could shift gears with the foot only...Ooo la la! I get I am the minority, but I am willing to believe others wouldn't feel they have lost a huge part of the riding experience if there was the option to shift manually or with a DCT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted January 11, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 11, 2015 I have a Dual clutch car and I always shift manually and I enjoy the many ways I can choose to drive. There is even a launch mode where I can hold the brake and rev to 4k rpm and the clutch engages when the brake is let off. Whether I shift using the paddles or stick I feel I have lost nothing from the driving experience. And although I understand the "being involved mentality", I just wish there were more model and make options to choose from with DCT. The reason why is that 6 years ago I had an injury to my left hand leaving me with a thumb and a couple fingers that do not move. I have digit numbers 6, 8 and 10 left and only my thumb moves on the left hand. I want to continue riding but the very few models available are doing nothing for me. I keep looking each year and find a couple of Honda models only. Perhaps they could integrate a manual and DCT so the operator has the choice...but if I could shift gears with the foot only...Ooo la la! I get I am the minority, but I am willing to believe others wouldn't feel they have lost a huge part of the riding experience if there was the option to shift manually or with a DCT. There is an optional foot shift available for the DCT. edit: doesn't look like it's available as an accessory on the Honda USA site but it's definitely available over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFROZ Posted January 11, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 11, 2015 Back to the question. I have no problem with DCT being available as an option. As ROHECHT mentioned, I would hate to have an accident, and not be able to ride because I can't use my left fingers. But for me, I just can't see the point if I don't need it. When I ride I like to immerse myself on what's going on, that's why I don't listen to music or use the intercom with my wife. It is my escape from everyday life, when I'm fully concentrating on the road, the engine, the gear I'm in, choosing my line and getting my timing right, I think of nothing else. It's also why I own a 5th gen with the beautifull gear whine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luvtoleanit Posted January 11, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 11, 2015 Old news, but timely on this thread. And until it is available on a road bike (that VFRD members want) the DCT is the only other way to get a seamless shift on a bike. So DCT leads the way with gear changes in microseconds. It's a decades old principle as Mohawk has already told us, 50 years + and now the technology is becoming available to improve it, lighter and more efficient. Will Honda transfer the tech from Moto GP to their road bikes? If so, which ones? Your guess is as good as anyone else. I remember the V5 and how many of us went to dealers and asked when? There were rumors here, and there, but that's about it. The 211v would be getting ready for its' first GP season 13 years ago now. Could have slapped a production version of that beast into a liter sportbike, a 1200-1400 Blackbird type bike to go against Kawi adm Suzuki's hyper bikes. Nope. They've been using a V4 again now for 8 seasons. We've asked the dealers where the V4 powered Sportbike is? No where that's where. But hey here is the inline 4 we call a CBR, it's MotoGp inspired. Nobody knows anything but Honda and they do what they want. Very glad there is a Japanese mfr. giving their customers a MotoGP inspired motorcycle. The '15 R1. I'm hoping it kicks Honda in their ass and they start giving their customers real derived MotoGp tech such as engines and trick transmissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Marsman99 Posted January 11, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 11, 2015 ..., when I'm fully concentrating on the road, the engine, the gear I'm in, choosing my line and getting my timing right, I think of nothing else.DCT eliminates none of this except the "pull and blip" portion. Shift is by falanges, not metatarsals. Otherwise same overall experience, just modified a bit. Skids and others have correctly pointed out that one benefit is the gain in bandwidth from eliminating some of the time allocated to shifting. With DCT, you don't need to account for the time and physical motion required for clutch shifting. In my experience, I spend less time processing shift timing and more on corner entry and exit, especially in lefts at full lean where snicking a gear is dicey. No overall loss of experience, just shifted to a different realm...in my experience an improved realm.We are well into beating the horse at this point, but the manufacturers appear to be poking around at an earnest introduction of cluch-less shifting transmissions, in whatever variant they've developed, DCT or whatever. As I said earlier, I don't think the question of acceptance will be resolved until they put it on a mainstream bike as an option, meaning a large sales volume bike like any of the liter class sport bikes. The moto mags can then do all the relevant comparos and the chips will fall where they may. One of the likely issues they are facing is cost and weight. Is an R1 buyer going to shell out another $1K for a few kilos of extra mass? We'll see. I, for one, have crossed over...as you may have surmised. I have 11 bikes in my garage,10 with clutches. I log thousands of miles a year riding clutch bikes. I've put 13K miles on the DCT since April. It took 2500 miles on a variety of roads and conditions before I felt qualified to weigh in as an advocate - you simply cannot do this in 1, 10, or 100 miles of DCT seat time. If I am at all representative of the demographic, then I think DCT, or whatever variant offered, will take hold in the market. Having experience with the DCT now, I would opt for a clutch-less option on any street bike I buy in the future. In my experience it detracts nothing notable and adds tangible benefits. I really, really wish my 996 had clutch-less shifting, what an improvement it would be on that bike. The horse has been beaten into leather and bonemeal now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 the other manufacturers are working on ways to do it without licensing it from Honda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 ...... Zero shift.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROHECHT Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I for one would appreciate its widespread appearance among makers. So hopefully the makers will find it appealing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWave Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 I do wonder why it's such a controversial feature. Shiftless has been a stable with scooters for years. Many motorcycles ride in the same congested, stop and go environment the scooter people do. But scooter culture also has it's funny quirks. Somehow some of them think since they are on a small bike they can get away with not wearing the same protection a motorcycles wears. I mean, a 40 mph slide is a 40 mph slide no matter what you fell off of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enzed_viffer Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I haven't yet ridden a VFR1200, with or without DCT, but I've owned a car with DCT for the last couple of years, and I mostly really like it - it's light years ahead of the standard automatic with slushbox car. However, a consideration is the servicing costs; it needs a service every 50,000km ( ~ 30,000 miles) and the special fluid (baby lesbian Afghani fur-seal penguin whale oil) is VERY expensive, at around NZ$60 per litre, so the service cost me over $600. The car is kind weird, allowing you to use full automatic, tiptronic, or paddle shifters, which is overkill. I've found that even driving in 'S' mode, while the transmission ECU 'learns' and adapts to how I'm driving, I still need to use the paddles sometime to downshift going into corners, etc. While apparently I'm not qualified to comment on bikes with DCT, having never ridden one, I don't have any real desire to do so. Having ridden bikes for over 40 years, and driven manual-transmission cars for the same amount of time (plus trucks for over 30 years), I actually enjoy the experience of changing gears on the bike, matching revs for downshifts, etc. Just wish my VFR hadn't developed the standard Honda gearbox crappiness, despite fitting a shifter kit when I first bought it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I have lately developed an allergy to shifting gears in my cage (VW Golf IV). I'm, as you mere mortals might say, growing tired of it. I no longer get any joy out of having to select gear over and over again. The repetition has become boring for me I guess. I swear my next car will be automatic or DCT or anything but manual. I test rode the 1200 DCT and manual versions. Loved that bike. It's everything I want my 6th gen to be except for the Price tag (at least when I test rode it the first year it came out). Another downside was due to its deceivingly smooth ride and Viagra-driven powerhouse I found myself at almost twice the speedlimit almost everytime I managed to look down at the instrument panel... unfortunately so did the Highway Patrol!!! Got a nice recipe in the mail on how to avoid going to jail without passing go!! Anyway, back on track... I really enjoyed the DCT as a novelty and could really see its reason for existing... two-wheeled Pan-European journeys!! Sometimes after spending 12 hours on my (un)trusty 6th gen stead, the truth is my legs and arms and hands ache and are tired of having to shift gears. I just want to cruise at the speed of sound to wherever I'm crashing for the night, enjoy the sights, carve those foreign curves and have a cold beer. I'd buy one in a flash (at a Price I can afford... and when I get my spinal lesion sorted... and convince the gf... etc... ad libitum...)!!! Maybe I am getting old(er), but if you say that to my face... you get a 2m Australian wanting a piece of your asphalt (you ashat)!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted January 14, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 14, 2015 Honda can't have a patent on DCT, its in use by many companies & has been around for over 50 years, so its technically in the public domain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marriedman Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 But a DCT in a motorcycle might be what they have patented. I don't know about worldwide, but here in the US, patent law is a screwed up beast. They actually patent math just by saying it is used in a cell phone framework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWave Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 I have lately developed an allergy to shifting gears in my cage (VW Golf IV). I'm, as you mere mortals might say, growing tired of it. I no longer get any joy out of having to select gear over and over again. The repetition has become boring for me I guess. I swear my next car will be automatic or DCT or anything but manual. I test rode the 1200 DCT and manual versions. Loved that bike. It's everything I want my 6th gen to be except for the Price tag (at least when I test rode it the first year it came out). Another downside was due to its deceivingly smooth ride and Viagra-driven powerhouse I found myself at almost twice the speedlimit almost everytime I managed to look down at the instrument panel... unfortunately so did the Highway Patrol!!! Got a nice recipe in the mail on how to avoid going to jail without passing go!! Anyway, back on track... I really enjoyed the DCT as a novelty and could really see its reason for existing... two-wheeled Pan-European journeys!! Sometimes after spending 12 hours on my (un)trusty 6th gen stead, the truth is my legs and arms and hands ache and are tired of having to shift gears. I just want to cruise at the speed of sound to wherever I'm crashing for the night, enjoy the sights, carve those foreign curves and have a cold beer. I'd buy one in a flash (at a Price I can afford... and when I get my spinal lesion sorted... and convince the gf... etc... ad libitum...)!!! Maybe I am getting old(er), but if you say that to my face... you get a 2m Australian wanting a piece of your asphalt (you ashat)!! I went though the same metamorphosis with cars you did. When I fist started driving I lived in Dayton Ohio where the nightly traffic jam lasted five minutes. When I relocated to Chicago the shifting was not fun anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFR Capt.Bob Posted January 15, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 15, 2015 Buy a scooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWave Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Buy a scooter. scooters are the Antichrist of bikes, just like the Prius is to cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Recalcitrance Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Buy a scooter. scooters are the Antichrist of bikes, just like the Prius is to cars. I hate the Prius, and the majority of people who drive them seem to operate under some delusional self-entitlement. The Prius creates so much pollution to build and the batteries don't last which then become an entirely separate issue of antithesis. The engine isn't designed to operate in the way most of the owners drive and they end up getting worse mpg than normal cars. Eco friendly tires are total sh*t too which causes under steer in addition to the already hopeless driving prowess of the self-righteous hippie behind the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rectaltronics Posted January 17, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted January 17, 2015 Funny how this went immediately from what manufacturers might be working on, to what people think of DCT and automatic variety transmissions in general. Some of the fear, hatred and dick-wagging is almost amusing. Admittedly I don't see myself getting it anytime soon but have more than a few acquaintances who are prime candidates due to various medical conditions. I think it's awful that some of you would have them relegated to scooters. For those of us who have to deal with urban traffic and who can't or won't lane-share, it can be a virtual life saver. And wow, how much easier it would be for some people to learn how to ride. Nobody is threatening to force it on you. Relax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 if i was buying a luxury car, i would get an automatic, sports car or pick up truck,..stick.....same with bikes....if i was buying a Gold wing i would want DCT not on the Valkyrie though...just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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