So What Does The Bike Industry Think Of Dct?

[Mohawk]

DCT is banal rubbish? What a bullshit statement. This technology was developed and is used at the pinnacle of motor sports, F1 and MotoGP. I don't think banal is a term applied to anything developed in MotoGP or F1.

F1 & MotoGP are full of banal rubbish & that is where it belongs. Do you need to knock micro seconds off your shift times on the street ? Do you have an engine & gearbox combo that is tuned to just shy of self destruct & requires a team of technicians to start it, make it run for a couple hours, before a complete strip & rebuild of any components ? ANSWER = NO

So do you need DCT ? That depends on you, you choice. Do I need DCT ? Err NO.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The worst thing on all Automatics I have driven, has been the stupid flappy paddle "manual" controls which plain & simply aren't they all change gear when they feel like it regardless of the mode you choose. If I want to redline or over Rev in any gear that's up to me. That said I'm quite happy driving an auto box in stop start traffic. But here in the UK we don't have to stay in lane in traffic & can lane split as the Yanks call it or Filter as we do. If a clutch hurts your hand well either you don't ride enough, have a physical condition, or the designer cocked up (most likely scenario). Feel free to have an auto box, but why pay more for a manual mode ?

DCT is simple technology fixing a problem that does not exist. Two clutches and an extra shaft to allow pre selection of gears has been around for 50+ years, nothing new here !

[Tamworth]

F1 & MotoGP are full of banal rubbish & that is where it belongs.

snip

Good grief

[stinkyfinger]

I prefer to shift myself and find it more engaging whether driving an automobile or riding a motorcycle. I'm not against the technology at all I just don't want it in my garage. I'd have the R35 in my garage right now if Nissan offered it with a manual.

I prefer doing my own shifting on a motorcycle - if for no other reason than plain out of habit.

I don't understand these type of comments. I'm not picking on you two, but this is a common thing I hear after being asked about the bike.

I own a DCT and I do my own shifting. I almost never use the A or S mode. Shifting just happens to be two button and not two levers. For the record, I am in excellent athletic shape and I do supermoto track days twice a month on my KTM.

[RC24]

Not sure about the industry, but where as most car drivers are lazy & a car is a means of transport, they have success with such banal rubbish.

On the bike front, most people ride because of a passion, thus they want to be involved in the process, which this kind of tech detracts from IMO. So market penetration has not been good. Honda produced a semi automatic CB400 & a few models since that never sold well except to commuters & that is the issue. They sell for a premium, when a car is generally a better commuting device than a bike, so they don't sell.

The DCT is a far cry from the Hondamatic days. Those bikes were 2 speeds with a torque coverter. Gas mileage was horrible as a result.

[Volfy]

I prefer doing my own shifting on a motorcycle - if for no other reason than plain out of habit.

I don't understand these type of comments. I'm not picking on you two, but this is a common thing I hear after being asked about the bike.

I own a DCT and I do my own shifting. I almost never use the A or S mode. Shifting just happens to be two button and not two levers. For the record, I am in excellent athletic shape and I do supermoto track days twice a month on my KTM.

If you focus simply on the results, then yes, gears gets shifted one way or the other.

Look instead at the entire process. Precise manual UP-shifting is a coordination of 3 actuators, including the throttle hand. DOWN-shifting into a corner adds the additional coordination of working the front brake lever simultaneously blipping the throttle. This is very similar to toe and heel downshifting in a manual tranny car, which is something I do miss doing now that all my cages are slushboxes. When done right - in either car or bike - it is a very satisfying feeling, which I simply do not feel when the machine does it for me.

Perhaps, it is satisfying for no other reason than that it takes practice to perfect. ANYTHING that takes practice to perfect can be intensely satisfying... be it playing musical instruments, flying aerobatics, shooting LR rifles, or, uh... rolling in the hey.

I remember reading a test driver for an Italian car mfr (either Ferrari or Lambo, I forget) commenting to a moto-journalist riding shotgun along a winding Italian country side road, that it was much more satisfying to use the tranny to slow the car, rather than the brakes. I suspect I probably do not possess the necessary skills to appreciate it at his level of vehicle control. Afterall, flying through narrow Italian streets in a 750HP exotic car without touching the brakes is not exactly something I will likely experience in my lifetime. And if I do, I'll be using the brakes... thank you very much.

[03vfrrider]

So, I've read through these posts and see two basic trains of thought for those who have no experience - reserved judgement and "you gotta remove my clutch lever from my cold dead hands". Thing is, perhaps you wouldn't be dead if you didn't need to use a clutch.

One advantage to not having to think about shifting is you have more attention to spend on riding. Sure, shifting is fun and it takes skill to get it right especially on the track. On the street, where we have to be alert to things you won't find at the track. Riding fast on the street is easier without having to think about shifting - even for someone who thinks shifting is done without thinking.

My experience is with an Aprilia NA850 Mana - an 850 twin with a computer controlled CVT and no clutch lever. It wasn't powerful at about 85hp but it could be ridden fast comfortably. I really enjoyed it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Skids]

Mohawk....DCT is not an automatic gearbox, it is a standard gearbox; automatic gearboxes are very different as well you know.

Volfy.....so what you are saying is you want the control of your motorcycle to be complex because you find mastering the complexity satisfying?

[stinkyfinger]

So, I've read through these posts and see two basic trains of thought for those who have no experience - reserved judgement and "you gotta remove my clutch lever from my cold dead hands". Thing is, perhaps you wouldn't be dead if you didn't need to use a clutch.

One advantage to not having to think about shifting is you have more attention to spend on riding. Sure, shifting is fun and it takes skill to get it right especially on the track. On the street, where we have to be alert to things you won't find at the track. Riding fast on the street is easier without having to think about shifting - even for someone who thinks shifting is done without thinking.

My experience is with an Aprilia NA850 Mana - an 850 twin with a computer controlled CVT and no clutch lever. It wasn't powerful at about 85hp but it could be ridden fast comfortably. I really enjoyed it.

Just my 2 cents.

I think most people think the DCT is just like a CVT or Torque converter transmission because the VFR has an auto mode. However, in manual mode you have to worry about the same things as the single clutch model.

Yes, the bike has engine braking when you down shift. No, the computer controlling the DCT nor the slipper clutch will not save your ass if you bang down to 1st gear while doing 80MPH (just like on single clutch bike). You still have to be smooth with the throttle when riding in the twistys. You still have to pay attention to your shift points to not disturb the chassis or loose traction. You still need to be smooth on the brakes when slowing down. I owned a VFR1200F before I bought my DCT model. I can tell you it takes just as much skill to ride. Yes, I've taken the beast to Willow Springs and it was just as much fun as my KTM 690 and SV650.

[Mohawk]

Mohawk....DCT is not an automatic gearbox, it is a standard gearbox; automatic gearboxes are very different as well you know.

I know DCT is NOT an auto box, but the tech is. If you follow dual clutch history, then it first appeared on manual preselector gearboxes. Then car manufacturers retasked it to manual shift auto boxes. What I have trouble with is if that works well or as intended, then why try to add a manual mode FFS. Buy an auto drive an auto, want a manual buy a manual, simple really. A switch or button is NOT a manual or manual control, it's just a person dicking about with a software program, which WILL intervene if you try to exceed its safety parameters.

The problem with auto's is they have NO concept of the world around them they are purely a load based feedback loop & that can't be changed. They can't see the road ahead, they can't preselect another gear ready for a hard braking rapid direction change followed by hard acceleration, where you can see chicane or tight S bends coming. Or the uphill or down hill gradient ahead. They just react to a change in demand, throttle, or change of load, hill etc.

Race DCT makes sence, as it really is manual control of a two clutch gearbox & saves time, same in F1, but street bikes don't need the weight, cost or complexity IMO.

[Volfy]

Volfy.....so what you are saying is you want the control of your motorcycle to be complex because you find mastering the complexity satisfying?

I said what I said.

Why do you choose to operate a motorcycle?

[marriedman]

Perhaps, it is satisfying for no other reason than that it takes practice to perfect. ANYTHING that takes practice to perfect can be intensely satisfying... be it playing musical instruments, flying aerobatics, shooting LR rifles...

Boom! Nailed it right there. That is one thing about riding that I have discussed with non riders before. Many of us may not realize it, but it does take skill to ride a motorcycle. I don't mean a track day ride, but a simple commuting ride through suburbia. There are grown adults out there who don't have the coordination to ride a bicycle much less a motorcycle. There is also the fear of riding that some people cannot overcome. Knowing that I at least have the skill and bravery to ride thousands of miles a year on two wheels is gratifying. I am not saying I want riding to be as difficult as possible, but I do like the fact that it is not as simple as driving a car and it does require more skill and coordination. There are several people that are drivers that IMO should not be. Thankfully, those people don't tend to get motorcycles!

Now I am not saying that DCT makes riding the same as a car, but clutch shifting is a difficult skill to master for some people. If the automatic mode of the DCT enables more people to ride and develop their riding skills, I am all for it.

[luvtoleanit]

I prefer to shift myself and find it more engaging whether driving an automobile or riding a motorcycle. I'm not against the technology at all I just don't want it in my garage. I'd have the R35 in my garage right now if Nissan offered it with a manual.

I prefer doing my own shifting on a motorcycle - if for no other reason than plain out of habit.

I don't understand these type of comments. I'm not picking on you two, but this is a common thing I hear after being asked about the bike.

I own a DCT and I do my own shifting. I almost never use the A or S mode. Shifting just happens to be two button and not two levers. For the record, I am in excellent athletic shape and I do supermoto track days twice a month on my KTM.

You don't understand these types of comments? Why do you choose a motorcycle over say a Can Am Spyder? Why do you choose a motorcycle over something like a Corvette, whether new or used? Preference, that's all it is. For many of us, using a clutch is more engaging, period, whether 4 wheeler or 2 wheeler. I don't like paddles in my cars or on my bikes, I want to work the clutch myself, manually, because it's more engaging, more fun.

And how about this.....Go compare costs between the two transmission types on the VFR1200 when replacement and/or parts are needed. Then go look up cost difference betweeen a DCT and manual in the same new automobile. One is less expensive, and less complex across the board. I know a computer can shift faster than I can. Actually, it's not really that surprising nor amazing.

What I don't understand is these comments from DCT owners. I'm happy Honda makes a DCT for you guys that like it. I'm also happy that you are so thrilled with it. What I don't understand is the hate from DCT owners that many of us have little to no interest in it. I've ridden the DCT VFR1200 for the record, as well as driven an R8, GTR, Golf R, McLaren Mp4-12c and a few others that had DCT's.

DCT is banal rubbish? What a bullshit statement. This technology was developed and is used at the pinnacle of motor sports, F1 and MotoGP. I don't think banal is a term applied to anything developed in MotoGP or F1.

F1 & MotoGP are full of banal rubbish & that is where it belongs. Do you need to knock micro seconds off your shift times on the street ? Do you have an engine & gearbox combo that is tuned to just shy of self destruct & requires a team of technicians to start it, make it run for a couple hours, before a complete strip & rebuild of any components ? ANSWER = NO

Just so you know, in MotoGP, they have to make 5 engines last the entire season. There are no rebuilds any more and hasn't been that way for years.

[EhViffer]

No "hate from DCT owners" here, its all love, especially if you lean it. Great job on your non DCT bike by the way, especially the suspension upgrades. This whole thread started with a simple question around the bike industry thoughts on DCT - no answer forthcoming but based on bike buyers and the response to this topic - polarizing.

[mk2davis]

I want to work the clutch myself, manually, because it's more engaging, more fun.

Was this intentional? i think this whole thread can be reduced to this, and it's funny as all get out! A clutch is more engaging . . .

[Volfy]

I too am a bit puzzled at why some DCT owners are so defensive. As I said, I test rode a '10 DCT and liked it a lot. It is something I would definitely consider if I decided to relax with my riding even more than I do now.

I remember when I was younger, I used to think why would I ever want to drive an automatic car? It was unthinkable to me at the time. Now... I don't even own a manual car. Not that I don't enjoy driving any more, I just prefer a different pace... and at bit more luxury than sport. I am already doing the same with my motorcycles. I finally gave up on street-riding sportbikes not too long ago, in favor of sport touring rides. Still have my track bunny, but even that's iffey at this point.

To me, as long as you are on a motorcycle, it's all good.

[CandyRedRC46]

I would be all for DCT on a bike if it increased performance, but the DCT VFR1200 is much slower and heavier than the Standard VFR1200. In the automotive industry, think nissan R35 GTR, DCT usually offers blazing fast and hard/rapid upshifts, plus launch control, with out the power sapping need for a torque converter. On the VFR1200, it really waters down the launch and upshifts, at least from what I have heard and seen for 1/4 mile times and speeds. So at this moment you are still better off with just fitting a quick shifter system to a standard bike. As most motorcycles come fitted with a sequential transmission, gear changes can be accomplished very fast with quick shift (as low as 40ms), and Launch control can be added (Rapid bike), and full button actuated up and down shifting can be added on some newer sport bikes that feature ride by wire throttle bodies like the vfr1200 (2008+ Yamaha R1), there isn't much need for DCT right now.

From my view point, the VFR1200 is a step in the right direction, but it is nothing that excites me personally. The added 25 pounds to an already over weight bike is a major penalty, but I can appreciate how this bike would allow the older and disabled motorcycle riders to get back to riding.

I personally think Ducati is about to one up the S@#$ out of Honda when it releases a DCT and VTEC 1298 soon. Honda needs to wake up, because this is pretty embarrassing....

[Skids]

I too am a bit puzzled at why some DCT owners are so defensive.

.....such banal rubbish. ......DCT is banal rubbish? What a bullshit statement.

.....its more like, twist & go scooters than an involving ride.

To imply the DCT target market is for elderly, lazy or physically challenged riders is just plain ignorant.

I have no problem buying this tech if and when manual shifting on a bike becomes a chore.

.....but I can appreciate how this bike would allow the older and disabled motorcycle riders to get back to riding.

Errrr, maybe some of the comments, implications and reactions above give you a clue?

[Tamworth]

No "hate from DCT owners" here, its all love, especially if you lean it. Great job on your non DCT bike by the way, especially the suspension upgrades. This whole thread started with a simple question around the bike industry thoughts on DCT - no answer forthcoming but based on bike buyers and the response to this topic - polarizing.

Not even sure how the thread title can be answered. There are no bike industry reps here,

[CandyRedRC46]

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2011/08/ducati-1199-superbike-to-feature-seamless-transmission/

I guess Ducati is coming out with DST not DCT.... "Ducati Seamless Transmission"

[CandyRedRC46]

THIS IS WHAT THE MOTORCYCLE INDUSTRY THINKS OF DCT

Okay so this is where it is all heading..... "Zero Shift" or "Seamless Shift" technology.

http://www.zeroshift.com/

http://www.zeroshift.com/transmission-technology/animation.html

Watch the 3 animations. Amazing stuff. Much simpler/lighter and less complex and costly than DCT and it is allowed in Moto GP, unlike DCT. All the Benefits of DCT and none of the drawbacks.

this just keeps getting better

http://www.zeroshift.com/transmission-technology/transmission-demonstrations.html

Honda using seamless shift gear box in Moto GP since 2011..... Is this the patent that you guys were talking about??

http://www.motorbiketimes.com/feature/sport/motogp/seamless-shift-gearbox-a-motogp-game-changer-for-honda-and-yamaha--$21382559.htm

Seamless shift gearbox: A MotoGP game changer for Honda and Yamaha?

Tuesday, 06, Aug 2013 03:17

by Daniel Mackrell

Seamless shift gearbox: A MotoGP game changer for Honda and Yamaha?

The seamless shift gearbox has been making waves across the motosport world ever since Honda became the first motorbike manufacturer to use it back in 2011.

At the time, it was branded by some as illegal, but it managed to slip past the FIM regulation that prevents dual clutch (like those used in current road bikes like the Honda VFR 1200) gearboxes from being used.

FIM placed its regulation on dual clutch gearboxes to control costs on innovations such as this, but the gearbox is perfectly legal.

At the time Honda was quite secretive about the technology, (which has been produced by British supplier Zeroshift among others), but since introducing it to their bikes, there has been increasing pressure on other motorcycle companies like Yamaha to follow in Honda's footsteps. And the pressure is coming from their riders most of all.

The Honda RC213V has had a seamless-shift gearbox for the last two seasons, and many have said that it has led to a decrease in lap times.

Yamaha didn't take too long to decide that this was the way to go, and recently began testing on its own version of the seamless shift gearbox.

It is looking more and more likely that the team will implement them on the M1 before the end of this MotoGP season, much to the delight of Valentino Rossi and Jorge Lorenzo.

Nine-time world champion Rossi said earlier this year: "I think that the seamless gearbox will be very important to improve our bike. It is something that we need but sincerely we don't know.

"We hope that Yamaha work on the project but we are not sure if it is true or not. And we don't know when because it is difficult to set-up that type of gearbox. So I don't know if and when."

The design has certainly intrigued a lot of people in the motorcycle world, particularly in MotoGP, but the jury is still out on how good this new technology is, and how much it's going to shape the future of road-legal motorcycles.

The future of racing?

The first question most people have asked when hearing of this new technology is "what is it?" and "how will it change motorbike racing?"

The seamless shift gearbox (SSG) began in F1 with many of the kinks being worked on during the 2006-07 season. The technology only really made the transition to motorbikes over the last few years.

Some bikes use a 'quickshifter', which lets the rider change gears without the use of a clutch or throttle. While it is better than a regular gearbox in saving fuel, it still cuts off the ignition between gear changes, which loses speed.

The primary advantage of the SSG is to shift delay by engaging the new gear while the previous gear is still engaged, which means that forward drive is essentially constant, which can shave off crucial seconds while racing by never cutting drive to the rear wheel.

The fact that it is seamless on both the upshift and downshift means that it is also useful for late braking, and for turning on fast corners.

However, some people have dismissed the claims that the gearbox improves racing times, including former Honda rider Casey Stoner, who said back in 2011: "For me it is no faster just smoother and doesn't make the bike as unsettled.

"The way it works is nice but definitely it is not the race-winning solution. Coming back a gear sometimes is a little difficult but going up the gears it is nice and smooth."

Research made back in 2011 showed that Honda's average shift time was around 8ms, compared to 27ms for Yamaha and 42ms for Ducati.

This showed the huge gap at that time between the three manufacturers and was a perfect example of the difference the SSG makes.

Wider adoption

So why has it taken so long for manufacturers like Yamaha to catch on? In truth, Yamaha has had its eye on the technology for some time, but they are continuing to work on ensuring they get the best possible performance out of the technology before they risk handing it over to their MotoGP riders.

Because of increasing restrictions on factory (or MSMA) development and engine/gearbox allocations in MotoGP, Yamaha has said that they will not introduce it until they are 100 per cent sure that it's working well and working faultlessly.

Ducati has been very loud in their silence on the topic but then the Ducati MotoGP squad have enough on their plate with the current Desmosedici.

So how and when will this filter down to your local showroom? In truth the normal sports bike development stream will eventually get it there, WSB teams will put pressure on the factories to supply the SSG to them and if they do then the WSB manufacturers will be required to produce a minimum of 250 road-legal versions.

Meaning if you have deep pockets and can afford the race specials it could be yours in the next few years.

Back in MotoGP and Honda certainly seem to be benefiting from the technology already, with riders Marquez and Pedrosa currently occupying the top two positions in the MotoGP world championship this season.

And just this week reports from the Czech Republic suggest that Yamaha has finally installed SSG on the 2014 version of the M1 race bike.

If they can successfully implement this technology, Yamaha will certainly be hoping to push Honda to the limits next season.

[Skids]

Old news, but timely on this thread.

And until it is available on a road bike (that VFRD members want) the DCT is the only other way to get a seamless shift on a bike.

So DCT leads the way with gear changes in microseconds. It's a decades old principle as Mohawk has already told us, 50 years + and now the technology is becoming available to improve it, lighter and more efficient.

Will Honda transfer the tech from Moto GP to their road bikes? If so, which ones?

[CandyRedRC46]

That article was saying that there is now big pressure for all the manufacturers to use it and racing, and in consequence there will later be pressure to fit it to some of their road bikes. I could see it being on the the street version of the rc213 since they have already had it on the rc213v since 2011.

[Skids]

That article was saying that there is now big pressure for all the manufacturers to use it and racing, and in consequence there will later be pressure to fit it to some of their road bikes. I could see it being on the the street version of the rc213 since they have already had it on the rc213v since 2011.

You'd hope so.

[Volfy]

I too am a bit puzzled at why some DCT owners are so defensive.

.....such banal rubbish. ......DCT is banal rubbish? What a bullshit statement.

.....its more like, twist & go scooters than an involving ride.

To imply the DCT target market is for elderly, lazy or physically challenged riders is just plain ignorant.

I have no problem buying this tech if and when manual shifting on a bike becomes a chore.

.....but I can appreciate how this bike would allow the older and disabled motorcycle riders to get back to riding.

Errrr, maybe some of the comments, implications and reactions above give you a clue?

So it bothers you that some of us talk about the DCT like it is an old man's bike?

You know... if what others say about your bike makes you get all pissy, the VFR1200 in general might not be such a good choice. It is probably the most maligned and dissed bike in recent yrs.

Personally, I am secure enough in my own judgement of what makes me happy to be flustered by what others trash-talk about my choice of rides. I fully understand why some folks simply don't like the VFR1200, and that's fine with me. I'm actually glad the unpopularity gave me a chance to own the VFR1200 for such pultry sum.

I ride my own ride. Nobody is under any obligation to like what I ride. And I sure as heck don't need others' approval to stroke my ego.

Your mileage may vary.

[Skids]

So it bothers you that some of us talk about the DCT like it is an old man's bike?

You know... if what others say about your bike makes you get all pissy, the VFR1200 in general might not be such a good choice. It is probably the most maligned and dissed bike in recent yrs.

Personally, I am secure enough in my own judgement of what makes me happy to be flustered by what others trash-talk about my choice of rides. I fully understand why some folks simply don't like the VFR1200, and that's fine with me. I'm actually glad the unpopularity gave me a chance to own the VFR1200 for such pultry sum.

I ride my own ride. Nobody is under any obligation to like what I ride. And I sure as heck don't need others' approval to stroke my ego.

Your mileage may vary.

M8, I was merely answering your question.

I don't imagine too many do give a toss what others think of their bikes, but I can understand how it pisses them off when comments like those above are made, without necessity IMO.