Beck Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Even connected to a trickle charge most of the time, The bike had been getting harder to start lately with seemingly not enough juice to turn it over to catch the first cylinder to go past the initial compression stroke to start. Almost like a hydrolock situation, but it does eventually start if I rock the bike in gear and get it over TDC on that first firing cylinder, but it just barely catches and starts, with voltage quickly dropping to about 10 volts as it tries to start, but then recovering as I warm up the bike to show 13.9 max on my on-board volt meter connected to the License Plate light circuit which I think comes in lower voltage-wise from other electrical connections aling the way in the main harness. So I'm thinking, despite the good voltage readings with the bike on or off (14.5 straight reading from the battery terminals when fully warmed up), I'm most likely not getting enough cranking amps from the battery anymore, thus the non-start symptoms described. You guys agree with my diagnosis so far?? I first thought of jumping into the whole Lithium Ion battery wagon, but lately I don't seem to notice any more really positive reviews on them from these forums. There's even some late judgements on them fearing that they could actually explode and burn on you if not charged properly, like recent laptop batteries have been know to do....Should I reconsider LI batteries?? If the verdict on LI is still not that clear, maybe I'll just stay with maintenance-free Yuasa AGM batteries but get an ST1300 battery instead of the stock one for my 4th gen so I can more CCA for a bonus. Question is, will the ST1300 battery fit in the 4th gen? Are they the same size as the stock one for the 4th gen?? If not, which bigger CCA rated battery would fit in the 4th gen?? Please advise.... TIA Beck 95 VFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I doubt the st 1300 bat has the same deminsions as the 4th gen, but you'd have to research it. Keep in mind not all aftermarket batteries adhere to the same size and deminsions, so its a case by case basis amongst brands. I do know the yuasa st1300 and the scorpion st1300 batteries are identical in size to the stock 6th gen battery, just more juice and reserve power in the same size package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer auggius Posted June 25, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 25, 2013 Question is, will the ST1300 battery fit in the 4th gen? Are they the same size as the stock one for the 4th gen?? If not, which bigger CCA rated battery would fit in the 4th gen??Please advise....Stock YTX-12BS has 180 CCA. A common replacement is YTZ-12S which has 210 CCA. It is 3/4" shorter but otherwise the same size. I just put a piece of plywood under it to compensate. It is more expensive though. I went back to the YTX-12BS this time because it was in stock and I didn't want to wait for special order at my local dealer. So I'm thinking, despite the good voltage readings with the bike on or off (14.5 straight reading from the battery terminals when fully warmed up), I'm most likely not getting enough cranking amps from the battery anymore, thus the non-start symptoms described. You guys agree with my diagnosis so far??Did you try shooting some contact cleaner into the starter switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFR4Lee Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Even connected to a trickle charge most of the time, The bike had been getting harder to start lately with seemingly not enough juice to turn it over to catch the first cylinder to go past the initial compression stroke to start. Won't let me edit mistake. Grr. Anyway, sounds like battery time for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 Question is, will the ST1300 battery fit in the 4th gen? Are they the same size as the stock one for the 4th gen?? If not, which bigger CCA rated battery would fit in the 4th gen??Please advise....Stock YTX-12BS has 180 CCA. A common replacement is YTZ-12S which has 210 CCA. It is 3/4" shorter but otherwise the same size. I just put a piece of plywood under it to compensate. It is more expensive though. I went back to the YTX-12BS this time because it was in stock and I didn't want to wait for special order at my local dealer.So I'm thinking, despite the good voltage readings with the bike on or off (14.5 straight reading from the battery terminals when fully warmed up), I'm most likely not getting enough cranking amps from the battery anymore, thus the non-start symptoms described. You guys agree with my diagnosis so far??Did you try shooting some contact cleaner into the starter switch? I didn't look into cleaning the starter switch, but isn't there a relay downstream from the switch that actually handles the power going into the starter motor though?? If there is, I think cleaning the starter switch won't do much to improve the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer auggius Posted June 25, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 25, 2013 I didn't look into cleaning the starter switch, but isn't there a relay downstream from the switch that actually handles the power going into the starter motor though?? If there is, I think cleaning the starter switch won't do much to improve the situation. The starter relay is in front of the battery box. If the battery is too weak then you may just hear a click. Or in my case last time, it clicked on/off continuously. I mistook that for possible starter clutch issue because it sounded like something spinning. Thankfully I was wrong. When I did the VFRness install I had to do the starter wire splice repair too as one of the wires was slightly burnt. That could be related to your start issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrcapn Posted June 26, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 26, 2013 Honestly, I went with the more expensive ST battery a few times as my r/r wiring kept burning up, didn't help, batteries fried. The $60 Walmart AGM battery has been good for 2 years now that I've used a battery tender and eliminated the r/r connector. I don't know if that's an endorsement of $60 Walmart batteries, fixing the wiring or battery tenders. But they have them in stock and they're cheap enough, I think the 4th & 5th gen are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luvtoleanit Posted June 26, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 26, 2013 Buy a Shorai. The LFX18. A new gen of batteries. I'm so glad I switched. Battery tenders are a thing of my past now................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer pluseb0 Posted June 26, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 26, 2013 I agree with luvtoleanit about the Shorai LFX18, if you can swing it financially you won't be disappointed. Lighter, better cranking and no more trickle charging. I have these in both of my bikes (Duc and the VFR) for over a year now and have been more than pleased with their performance. I don't see me ever going back to a lead-acid battery in my bikes ever again. +eb0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrcapn Posted June 27, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 27, 2013 Honestly, I went with the more expensive ST battery a few times as my r/r wiring kept burning up, didn't help, batteries fried. The $60 Walmart AGM battery has been good for 2 years now that I've used a battery tender and eliminated the r/r connector. I don't know if that's an endorsement of $60 Walmart batteries, fixing the wiring or battery tenders. But they have them in stock and they're cheap enough, I think the 4th & 5th gen are the same. I freakin wrote that yesterday, yesterday!! And today as I'm getting off the freeway waiting to make a right turn I glance down and my FI light is flickering. Uhhg, make it stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 Uhmmmm....Things are getting strange with the bike and battery , Tried to start it yesterday and it was even worse than before....so I took the fairings off to make sure it's not anything else other than the battery that's amiss before I spend big bucks on on LI Shorai aor a ST1300 battery...........I fiddled with a few things and holy cow!, it seems like I might not need a new battery after all, As it suddenly started OK and Idled smoothly.........but I need to let the bike sit for a couple of days on the charger and try to start it after to see if I got it fixed....I'll update you guys maybe by this Saturday if the bike starts and runs OK after sitting....keeping my fingers crossed. Still not out of the woods with this...... BTW, went today to a big accessory/parts store who sold Shorai and Ballistic LI batteries and was surprised to find out that they are getting a bit nervous about selling the LI batteries as they have been getting a lot of failures lately, mostly from Harley owners (The salesman in the shop said that pretty much all the LI batteries they sold to Harley riders had been returned because of problems with them dying prematurely). So they are not recommending it for Harleys till the manufacturers figure out what's going on with the batteries. We both suspect it could be vibration damage to the batteries that might be happening. The salesman did not think it's as bad with inline fours or V-fours, but he still did not seem to be too eager to sell me one. At around 200 bucks out the door, I'll make sure I really need a new battery before taking the big plunge with the LI's. Beck 95 VFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Yeah they are only issues in Harleys? I have some swamp land to sell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer auggius Posted June 27, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 27, 2013 Does it start easily if you jump it from a car battery? That's my test for a weak battery. Something ese to consider is fuel starvation. It could be the fuel pump or fuel filter. How old is your fuel filter? Perhaps it is clogged? When the fuel pump on my wife's CBR went, starting the bike became difficult, and it didn't matter if bike was hot or cold. A new one fixed the problem straightaway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted June 27, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 27, 2013 So what did you find? I wouldn't jump on the Li bandwagon just yet. Pb batteries are still good and are much more durable when it comes to high and low voltages. Li have a voltage range that they like to be in and that's it. Higher or lower and it starts to do damage to the batteries lifespan. They don't like to be continuously charged either, which they are on a bike. Then there's the issue of balancing the cells, which the MOTYs didn't come with the wiring to do it. The Shorais do, but the charger is listed at $85. I do have a MOTY myself. I used it on my 98 in a pinch when my stock battery gave up right before TMAC. But I would want some sort of voltage control on it. Or even better, once the battery is to it's nominal voltage, take it out of the loop and let it run on the stator alone. I'm pretty sure that won't work though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luvtoleanit Posted June 27, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 27, 2013 Yeah they are only issues in Harleys? I have some swamp land to sell! +1 On my other forum there are dozens of folks using them with 0 issues. The xplane R1 is notoriously hard to crank up and the LFX18 starts it without hesitation, much much better than the OEM Yuasa. Haven't had any issues in the cold, hot, nothing. I even let it sit for 2 months while building it over the winter (I have the Shorai charger but have never used it) and wanted to test the LI. When it was put back together, it cranked up, quickly, on the first try. I'll never used traditional batteries in bikes again. I've even got a Shorai in my Zuma 125, that I use to get to work, same deal. Fires up quicker than the OEM battery and I never, ever, charge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 Yeah they are only issues in Harleys? I have some swamp land to sell! +1 On my other forum there are dozens of folks using them with 0 issues. The xplane R1 is notoriously hard to crank up and the LFX18 starts it without hesitation, much much better than the OEM Yuasa. Haven't had any issues in the cold, hot, nothing. I even let it sit for 2 months while building it over the winter (I have the Shorai charger but have never used it) and wanted to test the LI. When it was put back together, it cranked up, quickly, on the first try. I'll never used traditional batteries in bikes again. I've even got a Shorai in my Zuma 125, that I use to get to work, same deal. Fires up quicker than the OEM battery and I never, ever, charge it. ... Thanks for the additional feedback on the LI batteries guys!.....I will most likely get an LFX 18 then if my bike does not start and idle nicely come Saturday...I think the advantages with the new technology still seems to outweigh most concerns on LI batteries at this point. Good news is, per comments here, it looks like I don't really need to get the charger for it right away, so I can limit the "damage" to my wallet to about 200 bucks.... Beck 95 VFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luvtoleanit Posted June 28, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 28, 2013 beck there are cheaper options than that. I paid around $150 for mine and I'm going to be ordering another one for the 1200 soon. That will make all three two wheelers with Shorais in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer EhViffer Posted June 28, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 28, 2013 beck there are cheaper options than that. I paid around $150 for mine and I'm going to be ordering another one for the 1200 soon. That will make all three two wheelers with Shorais in them. Seem to be two different Shorai codes for the battery, which one is in your 1200? LFX18A1-BS12 or LFX18L1-BS12. Can`t see any difference between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wera803 Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 I've been running the MOTY battery coming up on 2 years now. The first 8-cell worked fine in warm weather, but being in Georgia, I ride year round. When it got in the 40's at night, the bike wouldn't start. I worked out a deal with Brian at MOTY and ended up with a 12-cell. Now, 1.5 years later, the 12-cell hasn't let me down. It's worked in the warm, cold, and everywhere in between. I also have an 8-cell in my GSXR600. I left the "Park" light on one day at work and the battery was dead when I came out. I got it up and running to get it home. Per the suggestions on this board (I think it was Yoshi), I used the battery tender to get it charged back up (on for 15 minutes, back off. On for 1/2 hr, back off). I try to ride it at least once a month now and haven't had any more issue with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share Posted June 28, 2013 beck there are cheaper options than that. I paid around $150 for mine and I'm going to be ordering another one for the 1200 soon. That will make all three two wheelers with Shorais in them. I've been checking out well rated eBay Shorai sellers and it looks like I can get the battery for close 50 bucks less than it would cost to go through the local parts and accessories store. I'm leaning towards getting a 12 cell Shorai or Ballistic battery for maximum CCAs.......If the bike starts OK Saturday, I still might get a new battery anyway as I really taxed the old one with these hard to start episodes and I suspect that it's does not have the resistance to go through any more hard starts. Beck 95 VFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted June 28, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 28, 2013 I'm running an 8 cell MOTY Lithium Iron Phosphate battery for over 2 seasons now. I have the one with the quick connect on it. - I think on these batterys, if you are mindful of their performance window of staying out of sitting in low temps, they perform well. I do like that they have a higher static voltage, and dont really need any trickle maintenance charging. On mine, for the cold season, I pulled the battery out of the bike with a voltage around 13.5 (bring it in the house for winter) and five months later when I put it back in the bike, the voltage was 13.4. (Incredible) - I like it and it has been zero hassle for me at all while it have owned it. Also, I really like the quick connect feature. Plug in to install or unplug when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luvtoleanit Posted June 29, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 29, 2013 beck there are cheaper options than that. I paid around $150 for mine and I'm going to be ordering another one for the 1200 soon. That will make all three two wheelers with Shorais in them. Seem to be two different Shorai codes for the battery, which one is in your 1200? LFX18A1-BS12 or LFX18L1-BS12. Can`t see any difference between the two. You want the LFX18A1-BS12 for the VFR. Difference in the part number is probably where the terminals are mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 i have had the ballistic 8 cell for a little while now and it has been good to me. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ballistic-Performance-EVO2-8-Cell-Lithium-Motorcycle-Battery-2113-0259-NEW-/161006397457 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jeffyjeff Posted June 29, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 29, 2013 The lithium iron batteries may indeed hold a charge for a long time without self discharge, and they are a good way to trim weight off your bike if that is important to you. In my experience, however, they have little reserve capacity. That means that when your charging system takes a crap, you won't get very far on battery power alone. One man's opinion, Jeff J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted June 29, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted June 29, 2013 The lithium iron batteries may indeed hold a charge for a long time without self discharge, and they are a good way to trim weight off your bike if that is important to you. In my experience, however, they have little reserve capacity. That means that when your charging system takes a crap, you won't get very far on battery power alone. One man's opinion, Jeff J. Using my 8 cell MOTY trying to get the F2 to fire over, it died pretty quickly. The Pb battery I had sitting around lasted a lot longer cranking the engine over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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