Motogp 2015 Season . . . Five Manufacturers! W/spoilers

[Auspanglish]

Gotta be kidding... you honestly come that conclusion?

Rossi's attempt is plain as the nose on D'Artagnan's face.

If MM is really doing that I honestly cannot perceive it from the footage. He is on race line. On the throttle and off it when he should.

[YoshiHNS]

That's pretty funny

[Switchblade]

Gotta be kidding... you honestly come that conclusion?

Rossi's attempt is plain as the nose on D'Artagnan's face.

If MM is really doing that I honestly cannot perceive it from the footage. He is on race line. On the throttle and off it when he should.

I have watched it a couple of times .

[JZH]

Of course mm leans into Rossi, in fact he makes the gesture to lean in several times because he would be expecting Rossi to do the same; to lean INTO the corner, no-one would expect another rider to deviate SO FAR from the race line INTENTIONALLY and one can imagine the first instinctual reflexes are that your rival has gone a bit wide, like me, but will recover and continue with race as soon as he's got the bike under control... What?! Let's go... He's... No!! Forward... What the #&@#? Nanosecond... Forward...

The instinct and the rules and the paychecks demand you get back on race line and race.

Sorry to say but it IS against race rules to do what Rossi did intentionally and that's why he got the sanction.

You CANNOT intentionally deviate another rider from the race line and deliberately slow him down so drastically and obviously. It is extremely dangerous and unsportsmanlike in professional racing.

You can't even intentionally slow down to wait for your riding buddies at an amateur trackday... It's extremely dangerous as other riders are coming from behind at full throttle... Let alone obliging another rider to deviate to the edge of the track... Even if MM hadn't fallen, VR's action is sanctionable.

When someone "leans into someone" they hit that person. That's what it means. In other words, Marc hit Valentino. This occurred nowhere near the edge of the track (which in any case was not bordered by gravel at that point), and at a time when Valentino was already looking away from him and up the track. Yes, Valentino's bike was exactly where Marc wanted to be, but that is exactly what a "block pass" is. Block passes are certainly "legal" in racing; there is no rule that says a racer has to stay always on the optimal racing line.

Mike Webb of Race Direction stated:

“The decision is that Race Direction has imposed three penalty points on Valentino Rossi for irresponsible riding, that is, deliberately causing contact. Deliberately running wide in a corner in order to try and force another rider off line. The result was a crash and so it’s irresponsible riding causing a crash and for that we have imposed three penalty points on Rossi."

However, subsequent slow motion video evidence shows that Race Direction was simply wrong about which rider made the first contact with the body (or the bike) of the other. Accordingly, the crash wasn't caused by Rossi's deliberately running wide in that corner. It was caused by Marc leaning on Vale, rather than standing his bike up, like he should have, when someone runs you wide--deliberately or not. With the three long looks Rossi gave Marc, it must have been rather obvious to Marc that Rossi was running him wide, so Marc simply could not have been "surprised" that Rossi was, er, running him wide. That isn't exactly an unknown thing among racers. At that point, however, Marc instead decided to lean on Rossi and attempt to ride through him. In hindsight, not the best decision he could have made in that situation (but that could also be said about Rossi).

“We heard from both riders. Marquez told us that he was just riding his normal race and minding his own business, making passes on Valentino without contact. Which is true."

No, it wasn't true. He did contact Rossi, though technically, not whilst he was "making passes on Valentino", so perhaps this was technically a true statement--just irrelevant, as the correct question to ask was: did he make contact on Rossi at all.

“Despite what Marquez said we think he was deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino. However he didn't actually break any rules. Whatever we think about the spirit of the championship, according to the rule book he didn't make contact. His passes were clean. He rode within the rules."

Except, he did "make contact", as we now know. Marc leaned into Vale, which Rossi apparently instinctively fended off with his knee, and for some unknown reason, Marc crashed as a result. (Note also that Race Direction here doesn't seem to believe Marc's claim that he was "just riding his normal race and minding his own business"!)

“Valentino reacted to what he saw as provocation from Marquez and unfortunately his reaction was a manoeuvre that was against the rules. It's irresponsible riding, causing a crash. So he's been penalised for that. We believe the contact was deliberate. He says he did not want Marquez to crash, but he did want to run him wide.”

So this whole rationale for Rossi's penalty is based on the mistaken assumption that Rossi hit Marquez. In fact, now knowing all the facts, the same rationale actually supports penalising Marquez three points instead of Rossi, as Race Direction has already stated that they believed Marquez was "deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino", which is the same thing Rossi has admitted doing with respect to Marquez. The only difference between the two actions, therefore, is that one of the riders "made contact" before the other. Unfortunately, Race Direction mixed up the two riders...

Interestingly, the rule Race Direction has decided Rossi "broke" was Article 1.21.2 of the FIM Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix Regulations:

Riders must ride in a responsible manner which does not cause danger to other competitors or participants, either on the track or in the pit-lane. Any infringement of this rule will be penalised with one of the following penalties: penalty points - fine - change of position - ride through – time penalty – drop of any number of grid position at the rider’s next race – disqualification - withdrawal of Championship points - suspension.

There's actually no distinction in this rule between "irresponsible riding" causing danger with a resulting crash and "irresponsible riding" causing danger without a resulting crash. So, Race Direction has simply interpreted the rule in that way--and thus, their emphasis on "causing a crash" is misplaced or, at least, unsupported by the text of the rule itself. But in any case, if causing a resulting crash is nevertheless the deciding factor, the only rider who did that was Marquez, as it was he who leaned on Rossi, causing the contact that resulted in his own crash.

Here's a link to a good slo-mo video of the incident (subject to getting pulled by DORNA's lawyers, as always): http://www.repeatvids.com/video/?id=MUxTEu831qg

When I watched the race on DVR on Sunday night, I had been away for the weekend (in Bologna, Italy, of all places) and had not heard anything about the bizarre Thursday press conference, and my initial reaction was that Rossi, although probably provoked by Marc's increasingly dangerous passing maneuvers, had clearly kicked out at Marquez, causing Marc to crash. I was very disappointed in Valentino, because I could not see any justification for his action, and because the initial replays shown on BT Sport all seemed to show the "kick", and none showed the lean or the first contact by Marc on Vale. (Now that I think about it, how can you physically "kick" someone--with your knee--whilst your body is half hanging off the opposite side of the bike? I know these guys are extremely fit, but really?) But I was convinced by the video evidence available later (primarily by the view linked above, though the grainy helicopter shot does add some context), and now I believe that Rossi has been unfairly punished.

At least Rossi doesn't have to worry about qualifying on the front row for Valencia! He can now use all the FP sessions and the QP session to hone his race set-up. I'm not counting him out just yet (especially if raceday afternoon isn't completely dry)!

And as I said before, I like have always liked Marquez as a rider and I still do. He's young, reckless, entertaining, and hyper-talented. In fact, he is very similar to Rossi, both in talent and in attitude--and neither of them engage in "ballroom dancing" like the admittedly extremely talented prime donne, Stoner and Lorenzo...

Ciao,

[Skids]

Link broken.

[Auspanglish]

The deciding factor is not MM's fall, it's Rossi's deliberate and overtly obvious non-racing manoeuvre. That was not a "block pass" and I believe you can tell the difference. Block passes follow the racing line and velocity but take advantage of a gap. The resulting impossibility for the outside rider to continue riding in front is a consequence of the other having a tighter line and being in front, but because the latter has launched in even faster which is racing. What Rossi did was not racing, it was shepparding. He was not launching forward he was pulling up, almost to a stop and not because his launch involved extra speed or braking late to get in front and thus needing more track to slow down (which is the dynamic in a real man's block pass). You can't do that. Marc's intention to continue is to be expected and yes you can block pass but you can't do it like that.

It's not a racing incident and Rossi admits it. The rest is circumstantial. Rossi was no longer racing, he was shepparding and taking the law into his own hands. It was a very unsporting spoilt-brat dummy-spitting thing to do.

You slow down like that on a track day event without a mechanical or technical reason and you are blackflagged.

Bikes often make contact... But it should be incidental to trying to race and not result in a fall. Rossi stopped racing and started playing cop.

Race direction also say it's the global view of the events and not just the exact reason MM goes down (Rossi's leg coming off the peg and accidentally or inadvertently resulting in MM's front brake being actuated as a result from Marc's leaning in to avoid going off the track, or a proper kick, which I doubt). If Rossi had chosen to continue racing which he is getting paid to do, that incident would not have happened... There may or may not have been another incident, who knows, maybe a legal one. But from the moment Rossi gets off the throttle and deliberately heads towards MM and provokes him and forces him virtually to a stop, he is no longer racing, he's breaking the rules.

[hvfrdave]

Of course mm leans into Rossi, in fact he makes the gesture to lean in several times because he would be expecting Rossi to do the same; to lean INTO the corner, no-one would expect another rider to deviate SO FAR from the race line INTENTIONALLY and one can imagine the first instinctual reflexes are that your rival has gone a bit wide, like me, but will recover and continue with race as soon as he's got the bike under control... What?! Let's go... He's... No!! Forward... What the #&@#? Nanosecond... Forward...

The instinct and the rules and the paychecks demand you get back on race line and race.

Sorry to say but it IS against race rules to do what Rossi did intentionally and that's why he got the sanction.

You CANNOT intentionally deviate another rider from the race line and deliberately slow him down so drastically and obviously. It is extremely dangerous and unsportsmanlike in professional racing.

You can't even intentionally slow down to wait for your riding buddies at an amateur trackday... It's extremely dangerous as other riders are coming from behind at full throttle... Let alone obliging another rider to deviate to the edge of the track... Even if MM hadn't fallen, VR's action is sanctionable.

When someone "leans into someone" they hit that person. That's what it means. In other words, Marc hit Valentino. This occurred nowhere near the edge of the track (which in any case was not bordered by gravel at that point), and at a time when Valentino was already looking away from him and up the track. Yes, Valentino's bike was exactly where Marc wanted to be, but that is exactly what a "block pass" is. Block passes are certainly "legal" in racing; there is no rule that says a racer has to stay always on the optimal racing line.

Mike Webb of Race Direction stated:

“The decision is that Race Direction has imposed three penalty points on Valentino Rossi for irresponsible riding, that is, deliberately causing contact. Deliberately running wide in a corner in order to try and force another rider off line. The result was a crash and so it’s irresponsible riding causing a crash and for that we have imposed three penalty points on Rossi."

However, subsequent slow motion video evidence shows that Race Direction was simply wrong about which rider made the first contact with the body (or the bike) of the other. Accordingly, the crash wasn't caused by Rossi's deliberately running wide in that corner. It was caused by Marc leaning on Vale, rather than standing his bike up, like he should have, when someone runs you wide--deliberately or not. With the three long looks Rossi gave Marc, it must have been rather obvious to Marc that Rossi was running him wide, so Marc simply could not have been "surprised" that Rossi was, er, running him wide. That isn't exactly an unknown thing among racers. At that point, however, Marc instead decided to lean on Rossi and attempt to ride through him. In hindsight, not the best decision he could have made in that situation (but that could also be said about Rossi).

“We heard from both riders. Marquez told us that he was just riding his normal race and minding his own business, making passes on Valentino without contact. Which is true."

No, it wasn't true. He did contact Rossi, though technically, not whilst he was "making passes on Valentino", so perhaps this was technically a true statement--just irrelevant, as the correct question to ask was: did he make contact on Rossi at all.

“Despite what Marquez said we think he was deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino. However he didn't actually break any rules. Whatever we think about the spirit of the championship, according to the rule book he didn't make contact. His passes were clean. He rode within the rules."

Except, he did "make contact", as we now know. Marc leaned into Vale, which Rossi apparently instinctively fended off with his knee, and for some unknown reason, Marc crashed as a result. (Note also that Race Direction here doesn't seem to believe Marc's claim that he was "just riding his normal race and minding his own business"!)

“Valentino reacted to what he saw as provocation from Marquez and unfortunately his reaction was a manoeuvre that was against the rules. It's irresponsible riding, causing a crash. So he's been penalised for that. We believe the contact was deliberate. He says he did not want Marquez to crash, but he did want to run him wide.”

So this whole rationale for Rossi's penalty is based on the mistaken assumption that Rossi hit Marquez. In fact, now knowing all the facts, the same rationale actually supports penalising Marquez three points instead of Rossi, as Race Direction has already stated that they believed Marquez was "deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino", which is the same thing Rossi has admitted doing with respect to Marquez. The only difference between the two actions, therefore, is that one of the riders "made contact" before the other. Unfortunately, Race Direction mixed up the two riders...

Interestingly, the rule Race Direction has decided Rossi "broke" was Article 1.21.2 of the FIM Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix Regulations:

Riders must ride in a responsible manner which does not cause danger to other competitors or participants, either on the track or in the pit-lane. Any infringement of this rule will be penalised with one of the following penalties: penalty points - fine - change of position - ride through – time penalty – drop of any number of grid position at the rider’s next race – disqualification - withdrawal of Championship points - suspension.

There's actually no distinction in this rule between "irresponsible riding" causing danger with a resulting crash and "irresponsible riding" causing danger without a resulting crash. So, Race Direction has simply interpreted the rule in that way--and thus, their emphasis on "causing a crash" is misplaced or, at least, unsupported by the text of the rule itself. But in any case, if causing a resulting crash is nevertheless the deciding factor, the only rider who did that was Marquez, as it was he who leaned on Rossi, causing the contact that resulted in his own crash.

Here's a link to a good slo-mo video of the incident (subject to getting pulled by DORNA's lawyers, as always): http://www.repeatvids.com/video/?id=MUxTEu831qg

When I watched the race on DVR on Sunday night, I had been away for the weekend (in Bologna, Italy, of all places) and had not heard anything about the bizarre Thursday press conference, and my initial reaction was that Rossi, although probably provoked by Marc's increasingly dangerous passing maneuvers, had clearly kicked out at Marquez, causing Marc to crash. I was very disappointed in Valentino, because I could not see any justification for his action, and because the initial replays shown on BT Sport all seemed to show the "kick", and none showed the lean or the first contact by Marc on Vale. (Now that I think about it, how can you physically "kick" someone--with your knee--whilst your body is half hanging off the opposite side of the bike? I know these guys are extremely fit, but really?) But I was convinced by the video evidence available later (primarily by the view linked above, though the grainy helicopter shot does add some context), and now I believe that Rossi has been unfairly punished.

At least Rossi doesn't have to worry about qualifying on the front row for Valencia! He can now use all the FP sessions and the QP session to hone his race set-up. I'm not counting him out just yet (especially if raceday afternoon isn't completely dry)!

And as I said before, I like have always liked Marquez as a rider and I still do. He's young, reckless, entertaining, and hyper-talented. In fact, he is very similar to Rossi, both in talent and in attitude--and neither of them engage in "ballroom dancing" like the admittedly extremely talented prime donne, Stoner and Lorenzo...

Ciao,

+1, Thank GOD that JZH, said it as it is, race direction, got it totally wrong.

[Auspanglish]

Let me try and put it another way yes it is possible for riders to go offline and lose overall speed in a block pass. But the going off line and the slowing down must be a secondary by-product of the primary intention to race; to get in front of the other rider. Rossi's primary intention at corner 14 was no longer to race it was to send marc a message and he admits that and Racing direction accepts Rossi's word regarding whether he wanted Marc to go down or not because it cannot be proven otherwise.

The deciding factor here is: Was it secondary to the primary intention to race and get ahead of Marc? No, it was not. It was Rossi's primary motivation to slow Marc down and deliver him a message as he himself admits... he was no longer racing.

That is the justification to the sanction. The rest helps decide the severity of the sanction.

[Switchblade]

Lets hope that if Marquez does the same thing to Rossi he did to him, in the next race, you feel the sameway. Oh yeah and maybe next year Rossi we have to deal with two Marquez's in MotoGP !

[Auspanglish]

I'm not a diehard fan of either rider. I have no Marquez marketing merchandise. If you wanted to try and look for bias on my behalf; I have this helmet but decided to put a sticker over the number...

So go figure if my dice are loaded.

I'm enjoying the rational and technical side to the debate and JZH, whom I have tremendous regard for, has taken the level of the debate up a notch or three.

Can't say I enjoy the rest of the blinkered tabloid mafia comments plaguing the net but you get that.

[V4 Rosso]

It was caused by Marc leaning on Vale, rather than standing his bike up, like he should have, when someone runs you wide

He tried to stand his bike up (he did so just 1/2s before they collided) but his body was leaned over so far that he more or less fell into Rossi's bike because Rossi slowed down so much. No rider could have anticipated Rossi to slow down that much. It was a dangerous move for what I still believe they should have black flagged him.

collision

[tbzep]

It was caused by Marc leaning on Vale, rather than standing his bike up, like he should have, when someone runs you wide

He tried to stand his bike up (he did so just 1/2s before they collided) but his body was leaned over so far that he more or less fell into Rossi's bike because Rossi slowed down so much. No rider could have anticpated Rossi to slow down that much. It was a dangerous move for that I still believe they should have black flagged him.

collision

Look at all that asphalt in the runoff area he could have run onto if he didn't want to have contact. That doesn't even count the 15 ft of pavement inside the white lines at first contact and at least 6ft at the time he went down. For a guy that can put his tires on a dime over and over in any given corner, he had tons of room if his mission was to win a race instead of wrecking VR's chance at a title.

[Dutchy]

Right, this fellow is leaving the racing line and moves towards me....

Shall I lean in?????

:-)

[Auspanglish]

Follow the rest of Rossi's line and tell me whether Marquez would have fit inside the white line if he'd stayed on two wheels on Rossi's left.

Now put yourself in his position.

I know I'd be having a double-take and completely taken off-guard... You would never expect that from another rider on the racetrack.

Come on... Virtually all the sports commentators and all the retired champions from previous years and even Rossi himself agree it was a deliberate move to slow Marquez down and get him off line and that is not racing; that's megalomania.

Right, this fellow is leaving the racing line and moves towards me....

Shall I lean in?????

IMAG3008-800x452.jpg

:-)

Off topic!!

Is your RC36 amphibious?

[Dutchy]

Spot the flotation devices!!!!

[mk2davis]

Let me try and put it another way yes it is possible for riders to go offline and lose overall speed in a block pass. But the going off line and the slowing down must be a secondary by-product of the primary intention to race; to get in front of the other rider. Rossi's primary intention at corner 14 was no longer to race it was to send marc a message and he admits that and Racing direction accepts Rossi's word regarding whether he wanted Marc to go down or not because it cannot be proven otherwise.

The deciding factor here is: Was it secondary to the primary intention to race and get ahead of Marc? No, it was not. It was Rossi's primary motivation to slow Marc down and deliver him a message as he himself admits... he was no longer racing.

That is the justification to the sanction. The rest helps decide the severity of the sanction.

But isn't this what Race Direction described as not against the rules? After PI Rossi had his press conference and expressed his thoughts, RD took a moment and said "What you're saying, is true . . . but its not expressly against any of the rules. So, deal with it." I'm paraphrasing, obviously. So, he dealt with it.

Was it in the best way? No.

Was it a sad day in GP racing? In many, many ways.

Who do I think is responsible? Out of the racers, its a 60/40 thing. But the one who bears the greatest responsibility (to me, at least) is Race Direction. I thought they did a poor job of managing the whole situation. I just hope it ends at SIC, and we get an action packed yet controversial-free Valencia.

I'm very interested to see how riders who qualify 6-20ish behave. I don't expect them to part like the Red Sea, but how much they fight for their position could reveal the riders perspective.

This is an aside, but what still really surprised me is Marquez's reaction immediately after the crash. There is none. He seems to be a fairly passionate young man. I would have expected him to react with more vigor if he thought he was kicked/kneed/pushed down without provocation. Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me, but to me he reacted as if he knew he was antagonizing the bull.

[Auspanglish]

But isn't this what Race Direction described as not against the rules? .

In a word: no.

[mk2davis]

But isn't this what Race Direction described as not against the rules? .

In a word: no.

This is a quote from Mike Webb. "Despite what Marquez said we think he was deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino. However he didn't actually break any rules"

[Auspanglish]

I don't follow you

[mk2davis]

An issue that you have is that Rossi was deliberately trying to slow Marquez down. When the situation was reversed, when Marquez was slowing Rossi down (in the eyes of Mike Webb, at least), this is not a violation of any rules.

And this is where my issue with RD comes to a head. While it may not be a violation of the letter of the rule, I agree with you, it is a gross violation of the spirit of the rules.

Once RD said it doesn't matter if you go fast, or if you make the other person go slow, then it opened a whole can of messy worms.

[Auspanglish]

Rossi is the one who claims Marquez was deliberately slowing him down.

Mike Webb "thinks" maybe Marquez was trying to influence race outcome but he can't prove it.

He can prove Rossi committed a sanctionable fault with a dangerous outcome. Even Rossi admits it.

Quoting MW:

“Despite what Marquez said we THINK he was deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino. However he DIDN'T actually BREAK any RULES."

[Skids]

Follow the rest of Rossi's line and tell me whether Marquez would have fit inside the white line if he'd stayed on two wheels on Rossi's left.

Now put yourself in his position.

I know I'd be having a double-take and completely taken off-guard... You would never expect that from another rider on the racetrack.

He knew something was coming. VR had already turned around and shaken his fist at MM. On top of the press conference and everything in between, MM would have to be an idiot to not realise something was occurring; the slow down & reduction of VRs turn radius started well early and MM, sharp as he is, would have known that following the fist-shake, something else was going to take place. He could easily have avoided going wide.

[Auspanglish]

The point is he should not have to avoid a maneouvre like that... and few rider's would dream of such an audacious manoeuvre as that.

Can anyone tell of any historical precedent to this kind of outlandish behaviour during a motogp race?

I can't think of one that even comes close to this. Not of this particularly obvious character. Rossi has let his fame go to his head.

He has stuffed it down the inside so many times but that is racing. In Sepang he was playing "the Sheppard"... with all the biblical connotations that implies.

[hvfrdave]

Rossi appeals race directions penalty, of 3 penalty points on his licence.

[Skids]

The point is he should not have to avoid a maneouvre like that... and few rider's would dream of such an audacious manoeuvre as that.

Can anyone tell of any historical precedent to this kind of outlandish behaviour during a motogp race?

I can't think of one that even comes close to this. Not of this particularly obvious character. Rossi has let his fame go to his head.

He has stuffed it down the inside so many times but that is racing. In Sepang he was playing "the Sheppard"... with all the biblical connotations that implies.

And VR, leading the world championship and trying to stave off a serious challenge from JL, shouldn't have to be subject to interference and deliberate poor sportsmanship from MM.

Twice.