Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted October 5, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 5, 2013 Ah, but we all still agree that it's a shitty design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeystalin Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 She strikes again - trying to put the forks back together without an impact. Compression valve assembly just spinning inside the tube. Guess I'll take it back to work and try an impact again. Question for those in the know: What would happen if I machined a retaining screw or two through the cartridge tube and into the aluminum portion of the compression valve assembly, to keep it from spinning inside of the cartridge? a small 2-56 machine screw would probably do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JamieDaugherty Posted October 15, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 15, 2013 I see this in my shop from time to time. There is some finesse that can be used, but that is a learned skill. Once the bolt just spins you often have to drill it out. On reinstall you need to chase the M8 threads on the compression base holder or you will run into exactly what you found - the screw won't go back in. Normally you can impact it back out and start over. A word of advice: go ahead and remove the forks from the motorcycle. It take 5 minutes and saves a lot of grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Air impact wrench for removal and install.. As always run a tap and dye over male and female threads to clean them up before reassembly. Been there, done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 She strikes again - trying to put the forks back together without an impact. Compression valve assembly just spinning inside the tube. Guess I'll take it back to work and try an impact again. Question for those in the know: What would happen if I machined a retaining screw or two through the cartridge tube and into the aluminum portion of the compression valve assembly, to keep it from spinning inside of the cartridge? a small 2-56 machine screw would probably do it. I'm wondering if one can instead, add something like a "star washer" where the cartridge contacts the bottom of the fork tube and the allen bolt goes through..... Would that grip the cartridge tube end enough to keep it from spinning when you initially turn the allen head bolt to loosen it?..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannytb Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I'm wondering if one can instead, add something like a "star washer" where the cartridge contacts the bottom of the fork tube and the allen bolt goes through..... Would that grip the cartridge tube end enough to keep it from spinning when you initially turn the allen head bolt to loosen it?..... Wouldn't that push on the damping shims, potentially causing the fork to hydraulic lock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted October 16, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 16, 2013 She strikes again - trying to put the forks back together without an impact. Compression valve assembly just spinning inside the tube. Guess I'll take it back to work and try an impact again. Question for those in the know: What would happen if I machined a retaining screw or two through the cartridge tube and into the aluminum portion of the compression valve assembly, to keep it from spinning inside of the cartridge? a small 2-56 machine screw would probably do it. Sorry, if I knew why it was engineered the way it was, I might have a more definitive answer...but I don't really see why the compression valve body has to be free to spin. Your solution might just work--or it might have serious unintended consequences! I don't have a cartridge assembly to hand, but I think the valve body is recessed within the cartridge, which would not allow a single lockwasher to function. Maybe a stack of them? There is also the alloy cap-thing that the bottom of the cartridge sits in, so both would have to be immobilised by lock washers, methinks... Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted October 16, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 16, 2013 If it didn't damage anything, then the whole cartridge would spin. So you would need to make another tool to hold that in place. The big question would be whether the cartridge would handle the radial force without deforming. Maybe if you find some cheap forks to experiment on it would be worth looking into. Or just a cartridge for that matter. I would think a pin would do the job just as well, as that small of a thread in aluminum may not be the best idea. With a pin, the oil cap would keep it from coming out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 If it didn't damage anything, then the whole cartridge would spin. So you would need to make another tool to hold that in place. The big question would be whether the cartridge would handle the radial force without deforming. Maybe if you find some cheap forks to experiment on it would be worth looking into. Or just a cartridge for that matter. I would think a pin would do the job just as well, as that small of a thread in aluminum may not be the best idea. With a pin, the oil cap would keep it from coming out. I would think that a simple woodruff key would be better than both those options. A pin would be horrible to remove for service. Especially one that has been neglected. Key could be held in place by the oil lock (aluminum cap) and would be easy to place & remove. rant on... Honestly, I haven't had this issue. I think the root of this issue is having the right tools for the job. Showa doesn't expect anyone to service these forks with less than adequate tools, just as Honda would not expect someone to rebuild an engine with a flathead screwdriver and a crescent wrench. Right tool for the job is KEY. A fork service at the dealer would cost what, $225-300? Fork rebuild parts purchased locally would cost about $80-100? So what is the big deal about using some of that $115 savings to buy a $65 rechargeable impact gun? Immediate return on investment is not always easy to come by, this is a no-brainer to me. Of course we could write a letter to Showa and see if they will build us some forks that come apart with a butter knife. Bet that would go over well... /rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 In short.. air impact wrench/gun... has always worked for me... and I used to do it the hard way inventing all sorts of gizmos to keep the thing from turning from the top... but the air impact gun (the one they use to remove wheel lug nuts) work a treat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JamieDaugherty Posted October 29, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 29, 2013 In short.. air impact wrench/gun... has always worked for me... and I used to do it the hard way inventing all sorts of gizmos to keep the thing from turning from the top... but the air impact gun (the one they use to remove wheel lug nuts) work a treat... That doesn't always work - FYI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcrwt644 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I use a 4-5" 6mm hex on a 3/8" drive to a 1/2" drive adapter on m y 1/2" air gun while the fork is still on the bike. I have yet to have one argue with me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted October 29, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 29, 2013 I got really lucky with the F3 forks. Just used a breaker bar with a mallet with the forks still on the bike. Next time I'm going to just move the forks up the triples and squeeze the impact in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannytb Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 IIRC, electric impact guns have been said to be insufficient for removing the bottom bolt. Just wondering if that's meant to be battery impact wrenches, impact drivers (the ones that are really only screwdrivers), or do the corded impact wrenches (capable of 200+Nm) also fall into the "not good enough" category? My corded 1/2" impact wrench is capable of 230Nm and it will undo a properly torqued rear wheel nut in less than a second, without trying to rip itself out of my hands (ie: it is a true impact gun). The only difference between it and an air impact gun that I can tell is the noise of the electric motor. The impact hammers in it sound no different to an air tool. Any comments/advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted November 7, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted November 7, 2013 Personally I don't see any difference between a quality electric impact and a good air impact. They should both work equally as well. JMO of course. The only thing would be if the electric impact didn't hit as quickly as the air. I think that would make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrcapn Posted November 7, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted November 7, 2013 I've had to use my air impact gun but with the fork mounted upside down in my woodworking vise, clamped on the caliper mount, then a floor jack to compress the fork and create spring compression to break the bolt loose. You all have been there, a 20 year old bike that's never been serviced. Those bolts can test your sanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JamieDaugherty Posted November 10, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2013 Yes, so much so that I've been forced to charge for this repair. They either come out or they don't - and when not it must be drilled out. The cost of the new bolt is not a big deal, it's the time it takes. Painful! Those bolts can test your sanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted November 10, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2013 Aren't allen heads grade 5 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I've drilled out 2 and they went like butter. The annoying thing is, after you drill them out the remainder spins freely out of the valve body. Which tells me the bolt was over torqued and/or seized via the crush washer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted November 10, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2013 I've drilled out 2 and they went like butter. The annoying thing is, after you drill them out the remainder spins freely out of the valve body. Which tells me the bolt was over torqued and/or seized via the crush washer. Thats exactly what happened to my buddies, once the bolt head was drilled off, the rest of the bolt unscrewed by hand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted November 10, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2013 Got it Seb. I recently change the fuel pump on 1996 Toyota Tacoma(352,000 miles) and choose to remove the bed instead of dropping the gas tank. 6 bolts and 2 of them had rusted to washer and then the washer also had rusted to the frame, Yeh you guess it snap the heads right off when the air impact started so drilled and replaced with some Allen Heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannytb Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 In short.. air impact wrench/gun... has always worked for me... and I used to do it the hard way inventing all sorts of gizmos to keep the thing from turning from the top... but the air impact gun (the one they use to remove wheel lug nuts) work a treat... That doesn't always work - FYI Don't I know it!!! Today, my left fork's bottom bolt came out easily, but my right fork's bottom bolt just kept spinning (even with the impact gun). I tried compressing the fork, but no luck. But then I remembered something Jamie said... The cartridge needs to be put into tension (not compression). Why? Because putting the cartridge into tension will hold the compression valve hard against the snap ring at the bottom of the cartridge. This gives the best chance of it staying put, and not spinning. So, this is what I did: Pushed the stancheon into the slider as far as it would go. Put in a stock spring (I wasn't about to put one of my new springs at potential risk). Put in the spring retainer, so I could put force through the spring, into the damping rod. Put a small screwdriver through the spring, then rotated it so it went toward the stancheon. When it reached the stancheon, I kept rotating it to load the spring, putting the cartridge into tension. At first, I tried to turn the bottom bolt with a ratchet, but the compression valve still spun. Then I put the impact gun onto it again... Zip twang! Bolt undone, and then all I had to do was find the spring retainer that had disappeared into a darkened corner of the garage... In the future, If I need to do it again, I'll put a towel over the end of the damping rod, so it won't flick out. Here's a photo (after I got the bolt out) showing the basics of what I did: I hope this helps someone from needing to drill out the bolt head one day. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted December 1, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted December 1, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannytb Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Some additional info about the spinning bolt situation that I had: Before I pulled the forks apart, I noticed that the RH leg (the spinning one) had the bolt countersunk more than the other one. Now that I come to re-assemble it, I find that the sealing washer is missing! Both legs had some sealant goo in the bottom. I'd say that the goo is probably a production solution to leaking forks in the event that the washer is missing. The missing washer means that the bolt sticks up into the comp valve a bit further than it should - into the area where the thread isn't formed so well, at the end of the M8x1.25 thread. This causes the bolt to have more friction than it normally would, resulting in it loosening only a bit with the impact gun, then spinning the comp valve. Moral of the story: Don't forget to put in the sealing washer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 So you basically need to PULL on the spring with the top end retained or connected to the damping rod via the retainer washer acting as a stopper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.