joeystalin Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 What kind of design is this where there's a bolted joint, but no way of holding both sides of the joint? The bolt is slightly loose but the whole cartridge inside the fork is just spinning. I tried using an allen wrench onto a drill and all it does is spin. Never backs out. I don't have access to an impact, although every impact I've ever used has required a wrench on the other side to actually do anything. What a stupid design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BCmcrider Posted October 3, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 3, 2013 If you put an allen wrench into it then hit it very sharply with something metal, ie a mid sized wrench, sometimes the inertia of the inside piece will be enough to overcome the friction of the threads. Essentially, you want to duplicate the action of the impact. This may take several hits to do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer wagzhp Posted October 3, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 3, 2013 Put the springs back in and put the top cap back on, and hit it with an impact wrench. Hopefully having the internals in place will put enough tension on the cartridge to allow the impact wrench to back the screw out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 It sounds like you have removed the fork cap? If you replace the spring and fork cap, this should provide enough resistance for you to remove the bolt after it has been loosened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Conedodger Posted October 3, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 3, 2013 I went through this recently. Thought I had loosened it enough before taking fork apart, but had not. I reassembled the tube with the spring and cap and still couldn't get it out, even with an impact gun. Disassembled it again and cut a taper into an old broom handle. Was able to wedge the broom handle between the cartridge and the tube and then was able to break it free with the impact gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeystalin Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 I went through this recently. Thought I had loosened it enough before taking fork apart, but had not. I reassembled the tube with the spring and cap and still couldn't get it out, even with an impact gun. Disassembled it again and cut a taper into an old broom handle. Was able to wedge the broom handle between the cartridge and the tube and then was able to break it free with the impact gun. This is about the only thing I can see working. To everyone else, tried it tried it tried it and tried it. I have stiffer springs, I put the cap back on, put preload on max, put a jack UNDERNEATH the bottom of the fork tube to get as much force onto that cartridge as possible, and no luck. What a piece of shit design. I had an old Yamaha YZF-600R that was easy to remove with a lock nut on the end of some all thread that you put inside the fork and onto the cartridge. This design, no such accomodations. I guess I'll try a broom handle and take it into work tomorrow where there is an impact. What a waste of a day off because of a shitty design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Showa had been building forks of such design for ages and Honda never found it neccesary to request for any changes all those years to make it easy for the home mechanic to remove that lower bolt........ I guess Honda Motor Corporation just assumes all buyers of their bikes just go to their dealership service departments for everything that needs servicing on their bikes. I suspect service departments will be quite ticked off if all the "special tool" notations on the Honda Service manuals dissapear too....... Customers, what the hell do they know anyway........blehhhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeystalin Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Showa had been building forks of such design for ages and Honda never found it neccesary to request for any changes all those years to make it easy for the home mechanic to remove that lower bolt........ I guess Honda Motor Corporation just assumes all buyers of their bikes just go to their dealership service departments for everything that needs servicing on their bikes. I suspect service departments will be quite ticked off if all the "special tool" notations on the Honda Service manuals dissapear too....... Customers, what the hell do they know anyway........blehhhh. I was going to suggest a special tool to do this job. This doesn't even have the option for a special tool! I shaved down the end of some wood round stock I had and stuck it between the end of the cartridge and the inside wall, ala Conedodger. When I turn the socket head screw, I don't see the cartridge rotating inside the fork anymore. And yet, the bolt doesn't come out. Last option is an impact or I throw this bike in the trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted October 3, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 3, 2013 Sometimes it just gets worse. When working on a friends '95 VFR750 forks, the allen head stripped out and we had to drill out the head off of the bolt to remove it. On my '09, I left the forks in the triple clams, tightened the preload all the way and the bolt came right out, this BTW was the same procedure we used on the 750. I attribute the difference in ease of removal to time...I'm 99.99% sure the VFR750 forks were never serviced (not my friends doing, he bought it used) and that my '09 were a lot "fresher" not having time for the bolt to "seize" up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Conedodger Posted October 3, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 3, 2013 Showa had been building forks of such design for ages and Honda never found it neccesary to request for any changes all those years to make it easy for the home mechanic to remove that lower bolt........ I guess Honda Motor Corporation just assumes all buyers of their bikes just go to their dealership service departments for everything that needs servicing on their bikes. I suspect service departments will be quite ticked off if all the "special tool" notations on the Honda Service manuals dissapear too....... Customers, what the hell do they know anyway........blehhhh. I was going to suggest a special tool to do this job. This doesn't even have the option for a special tool! I shaved down the end of some wood round stock I had and stuck it between the end of the cartridge and the inside wall, ala Conedodger. When I turn the socket head screw, I don't see the cartridge rotating inside the fork anymore. And yet, the bolt doesn't come out. Last option is an impact or I throw this bike in the trash. I had the same frustrations. Take a breath, try again, repeat. You'll get it eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted October 3, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 3, 2013 Showa had been building forks of such design for ages and Honda never found it neccesary to request for any changes all those years to make it easy for the home mechanic to remove that lower bolt........ I guess Honda Motor Corporation just assumes all buyers of their bikes just go to their dealership service departments for everything that needs servicing on their bikes. I suspect service departments will be quite ticked off if all the "special tool" notations on the Honda Service manuals dissapear too....... Customers, what the hell do they know anyway........blehhhh. I was going to suggest a special tool to do this job. This doesn't even have the option for a special tool! I shaved down the end of some wood round stock I had and stuck it between the end of the cartridge and the inside wall, ala Conedodger. When I turn the socket head screw, I don't see the cartridge rotating inside the fork anymore. And yet, the bolt doesn't come out. Last option is an impact or I throw this bike in the trash. Does the bolt move up and down at all? This is pure theory. The bushing is loose and is just spinning in the cartridge now. Holding the cartridge in place isn't going to do anything anymore. If the circlip is still in place, you could try using the damping rod to hammer the bushing back on to the circlip to jam it up again. Worse case try drilling it out. It's just a standard 8mm bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeystalin Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Yeah, I will try an impact and then drilling tomorrow. But I really hate drilling out bolts. There's always the danger of damaging surrounding material. The bolt doesn't move up and down at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted October 3, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 3, 2013 Here's a little drawing of a the major components of a cartridge fork: Note that the Bottom Bolt threads into the Compression Valve Body, which sits inside the Cartridge Tube. The Compression Valve Body is not attached to the Fork Cartridge. The Compression Valve Body is free to spin within the Cartridge Tube. When you try to remove the Bottom Bolt and it just spins, what is happening is that the Bottom Bolt and the Compression Valve Body are spinning together. How can you stop the Compression Valve Body from spinning? If you press down on the Fork Cap, the Stanchion Tube moves down and the Fork Spring puts pressure on the top of the Cartridge Tube. Press down hard enough and the Cartridge Tube will be firmly seated against the bottom of the Lower Fork Tube. Which does nothing, because the Compression Valve Body is still free to spin within the Cartridge Tube, and no amount of additional pressure on the Cartridge Tube will change that... So, what can you do? Two options: 1. Try pulling the forks apart, rather than compressing them. I have not shown it in the drawing, but there is (on most bikes) a Top Out Spring located on the outside of the Cartridge Tube. There is also an Oil Lock Piece at the bottom of the Fork Stanchion, which catches on the Top Out Spring at full extension of the forks (the spring is there to soften the blow), and by putting the fork under tension, the Oil Lock Piece at the bottom of the Stanchion Tube compresses the Top Out Spring, which in turn pulls upward on the Cartridge Tube. Pulling the Cartridge Tube upward causes it to pull upward on the Compression Valve Body via the Internal Circlip (again, not shown--sorry!) that holds the Compression Valve Body into the Cartridge Tube. If you're very lucky, and put enough tension on the fork assembly, enough friction will be generated between the Compression Valve Body and the Internal Circlip to stop the Compression Valve Body from spinning freely, and then you can remove the Bottom Bolt. 2. Forget everything I've written above and get yourself a long 6mm Allen bit and an air wrench. Not an impact driver; not an electric hammer drill; an air wrench. Carefully and fully seat the Allen bit into the head of the Bottom Bolt and BRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPP--it'll be out in less than a second. Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 ...and once you do get it out and complete the service, continue to service it on a regular basis do you or the next guy don't go through the same crap again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeystalin Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 2. Forget everything I've written above and get yourself a long 6mm Allen bit and an air wrench. Not an impact driver; not an electric hammer drill; an air wrench. Carefully and fully seat the Allen bit into the head of the Bottom Bolt and BRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPP--it'll be out in less than a second. Ciao, Thanks for the great post JZH. I did try pulling on it, but it's a bit awkward so I'll try that again with a helper. But regarding the air wrench - how is this different than a simple cordless drill? Not an impact or hammer cordless, just a regular drill motor. Cause I've had no luck with that. I'm 99% sure that the compression valve is spinning inside of the cartridge as you say. ...and once you do get it out and complete the service, continue to service it on a regular basis do you or the next guy don't go through the same crap again. Bike only has 12,000 miles on it. Fork oil doesn't even smell. Right fork bolt came out fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Showa had been building forks of such design for ages and Honda never found it neccesary to request for any changes all those years to make it easy for the home mechanic to remove that lower bolt........ I guess Honda Motor Corporation just assumes all buyers of their bikes just go to their dealership service departments for everything that needs servicing on their bikes. I suspect service departments will be quite ticked off if all the "special tool" notations on the Honda Service manuals dissapear too....... Customers, what the hell do they know anyway........blehhhh. I was going to suggest a special tool to do this job. This doesn't even have the option for a special tool! I shaved down the end of some wood round stock I had and stuck it between the end of the cartridge and the inside wall, ala Conedodger. When I turn the socket head screw, I don't see the cartridge rotating inside the fork anymore. And yet, the bolt doesn't come out. Last option is an impact or I throw this bike in the trash. Problem is, for most of us, an air impact wrench, which pretty much is universally known as the best tool to use to remove these bolts, qualifies as a special tool..... Last time I looked in my tool boxes, I sure did not have one, same with an air compressor needed to run one...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Air impact wrench delivers hammer blows that overcome slipping parts and then spin it out pronto. Much more effective than an electric impact wrench, or drill.Worth it to buy one or track one down. GL Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer V-FORE Posted October 3, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 3, 2013 As I have had this issue a few times and I must say it is extremely easy to drill out the head of the allen bolt and replace.....Much more efficient then running around trying things I realized this on the second set of forks I had to put on Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted October 4, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 4, 2013 As I have had this issue a few times and I must say it is extremely easy to drill out the head of the allen bolt and replace.....Much more efficient then running around trying things I realized this on the second set of forks I had to put on Good Luck In the case of the 750 forks, we had no choice but to drill out the head. Oddly, once the head of the bolt was removed and we got the forks apart, the remainder of the bolt unscrewed by hand! Telling me that the bolt was somehow seized to the fork slider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted October 4, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 4, 2013 The only thing that has worked for me without fail is an 1/2" drive air impact wrench. And used before the legs are disassembled i.e., the springs removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted October 4, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 4, 2013 BBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannytb Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 All very interesting stuff gents. I'm thinking about getting Jamie D to send me one of his modified CBR929 shocks and valves/springs for the forks. This is exactly what I need to know for a problem I could face with the forks. Very nice to know what to look out for in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted October 4, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 4, 2013 Before I had my own air wrench, I used to drop by one of the local bike shops with my forks in hand. Like I said, it takes just a few seconds to do it using the proper tool, so I don't think I ever had to pay. Btw, I would never try to do this with the forks still on the bike. It doesn't take much effort to remove the forks, and given that the bottom bolts are special, shallow head Allens (to clear the thick side of the axle), they are very easy to strip out. You also cannot really clean the forks properly without removing them. Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeystalin Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Bolt came out yesterday at work with....an impact wrench. I was almost hoping it wouldn't work so that everyone would agree with me that its a shitty design and we would all march together to Showa's doorsteps with pickaxes and torches and demand a redesign. Instead I guess I'll just continue rebuilding my shocks. Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer wagzhp Posted October 5, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted October 5, 2013 Excellent news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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