Member Contributer sa1713 Posted February 24, 2010 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2010 Okay, a small update. No new news from the EBD. I hope to speak with him this weekend. One main topic will be air intake with filter size and snorkle location. Maybe a better directed snorkle with a larger tube may be in order. On another note, I've sent a new set of headers off to Indy Powder Coating for an internal ceramic coating. They state/show a 40% decrease in heat transfer just by coating the inside of the pipes. I should have those back within about 2 weeks. I contacted FUEL MOTO USA and ordered a PCV with autotune for $490 shipped. A couple of listers here recommended them. They are going to load a map with my mods and ship it out. They are also going to do some more research for me regarding the map by gear and temp features as well as the vacuum switch option. I've read all of the other posts and just want to get it dialed in. In about 3 weeks I'm dropping my bike off at a custom pipe shop for an up pipe for my underseat project. I'm going to install the PCV on the current engine with the header/can setup and get it dialed in. When the new engine arrives, I'll be better prepared for that install. Any and all suggestions regarding the PCV or engine swap are welcome. More as I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer sa1713 Posted February 27, 2010 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 27, 2010 New update. Air filter/intake I spoke with the EBD and we discussed air intake and filters. I told him about the snorkle routing and he suggested that if the intake could be placed in an area outside of the frame and into an area of air flow, it would be a great modification. He said an increase of just a half pound (.226k for our metric pals) of pressure would be very helpful. He asked that the inlet be angled so that the air would be scooped into the snorkle and up the pressure. He said that FI engines like to have more air. He commented about naked bikes and fronts ends without fenders. Naked bikes and fenderless bikes have little to no air flow over the front wheel and towards the engine. We then discussed air filter elements. He said K&N are fine filters and they have a new material which allows even more air to flow within the same filtered area. I asked about BMC and he said they are knock off K&N. I asked him about RC45 filters as they have about the area of Texas in filter area. He said those work well too. Bottom line for him is this: Have the largest filter area possible that won't clog too quickly and the engine won't loose power as the filter tires. Pretty simple but I've always thought that the area was directly related to engine design and must have the specifically designed filter. Not so. Regarding the PC V I've got on the way, I'm investigating the interface for the vacuum switch. I'm going to pose the question to DJ regarding tapping into the MAP sensor and using those signals to turn the Autotune off and on based upon load. I don't know if it will work out but just another theory. More as I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted February 27, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted February 27, 2010 New update. Air filter/intake Regarding the PC V I've got on the way, I'm investigating the interface for the vacuum switch. I'm going to pose the question to DJ regarding tapping into the MAP sensor and using those signals to turn the Autotune off and on based upon load. I don't know if it will work out but just another theory. More as I get it. I'm interested to see how your PCV works/goes together on your '98. Keep updating... Thxzz MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted February 28, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2010 How about one of these: I've read that a ram-air system and bigger airbox can add up to 10% power increase at the top end, plus more torque and better throttle response lower in the rev-range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted February 28, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2010 To ask what may seem like a newb question, what exactly gets welded when you weld the head? Does the head just get filled in, making it less of a dome (ergo more compression)? Curious myself. Anyone care to enlighten? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer sa1713 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2010 It is where you add material to the dome thus decreasing the expansion chamber and increasing the pressure/compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer sa1713 Posted March 1, 2010 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 1, 2010 How about one of these: I've read that a ram-air system and bigger airbox can add up to 10% power increase at the top end, plus more torque and better throttle response lower in the rev-range. That's what I'm talking about :goofy: So after a little digging, I'm thinking something like this With a length of this to connect to the air box .jpg] Someone some where mentioned about a smooth bore air path. Not sure how the flex tube would affect that. More as I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ryanme17 Posted March 1, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted March 1, 2010 Someone some where mentioned about a smooth bore air path. Not sure how the flex tube would affect that. More as I get it. That was going to be my comment! That corrugated stuff flows so poorly you would probably be offsetting any gains from increased pressure. Fluid dynamics can be complicated, but basically the ribs create turbulence where you want good flow. Smooth would be much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Someone some where mentioned about a smooth bore air path. Not sure how the flex tube would affect that. More as I get it. That was going to be my comment! That corrugated stuff flows so poorly you would probably be offsetting any gains from increased pressure. Fluid dynamics can be complicated, but basically the ribs create turbulence where you want good flow. Smooth would be much better. A couple of OzVFR guys built a track-only 4th Gen, and they ran that corrugated tubing from the holes where the indicators were, back under the steeringhead and into the airbox. After one session at Eastern Creek they pulled it out - it just wouldn't rev. Either too much air was getting in, or not enough... it's a bit of a science, when Kawasaki released the first ZX-12R it had the big snow shovel air intake protruding from under the headlight, their explanation was that a shorter, more aesthetically pleasing one actually dropped the hp by a significant amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ryanme17 Posted March 1, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted March 1, 2010 A couple of OzVFR guys built a track-only 4th Gen, and they ran that corrugated tubing from the holes where the indicators were, back under the steeringhead and into the airbox. After one session at Eastern Creek they pulled it out - it just wouldn't rev. Either too much air was getting in, or not enough... it's a bit of a science, when Kawasaki released the first ZX-12R it had the big snow shovel air intake protruding from under the headlight, their explanation was that a shorter, more aesthetically pleasing one actually dropped the hp by a significant amount. Right! I shouldn't say it will absolutely not work, there are too many factors, and many cars use this stuff as their stock set-up. I can't be 100% sure it would make a noticeable difference, but I would strongly recommend looking for smooth tubing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted March 1, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted March 1, 2010 (edited) A couple of OzVFR guys built a track-only 4th Gen, and they ran that corrugated tubing from the holes where the indicators were, back under the steeringhead and into the airbox. After one session at Eastern Creek they pulled it out - it just wouldn't rev. Either too much air was getting in, or not enough... it's a bit of a science, when Kawasaki released the first ZX-12R it had the big snow shovel air intake protruding from under the headlight, their explanation was that a shorter, more aesthetically pleasing one actually dropped the hp by a significant amount. The issue they were having is the float bowls on the carbs were at atmospheric pressure... not the same pressure caused by the ram air effect; hence poor fueling. Apparently the fix is to connect the carb vent pipes to the airbox or do what the pic i posted above has done and incase the carbs within the airbox. :goofy: :goofy: edit - read about in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-Turbocharging-Supercharging-Nitrous-Oxide/dp/1884313078 Red Edited March 1, 2010 by redmarque Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Actually, the increased need for electric current to run the electric water pump WILL add resistance to the rotor/stator. Think of an gas powered generator that you might used if your power goes out. If you plug in a big appliance, it puts a noticeable load on the engine. There's no free power. So lets say that electric water pump is a 1hp electric motor, then it will take 1hp (plus probably ~10% efficiency loss) extra power to spin the rotor to make the current for it. I think the advantage to these electric water pumps is the consistency. The mechanical pump in the engine gets really inefficient and sucks a lot of power away from the engine at higher RPM. Yup that's the plain truth of it. Add in that any pump has an efficiency range that is speed dependent and the mechanical pump suddenly doesn't work so well. Its too slow and inefficient at idle, when you need good flow. And it's too fast at High rpm's causing more inefficiency due to cavitation. Not to mention the impeller on the stock pump is about as cheap as anyone can make one. A properly fitted electric cooling pump is a great thing. It not a 'free Lunch' thing so much as 'healthy lunch' kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer sa1713 Posted March 6, 2010 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 6, 2010 PC V with Autotune arrived this week. I've looked at the installation instructions and they look straight forward. Coderighter is digging into some more techical aspects but we believe that the map by speed/gear and temp as well as the vacuum shut off will be the same for the 5th gen as his 6th. I have a spare 5th gen wire harness that I'm using to locate all of the connections. If they are actually located where I think I've found them then it won't be too hard to install. And if all this is not enough, I'm almost finished with the underseat exhaust project. I installed the AL tray on a spare subframe and i'll install that sometime this weekend. More as I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 I'd like to swap to a smaller diameter stator to reduce rotating mass, will look into that down the track. My bike won't ever run the typical S/T power loads; a GPS and the EWP are about it (and all of my rear lights and front indicators are LED which saves some current) so I could easily get away with reducing voltage output. The Stator doesn't rotate, or the wires would get snarled up, the Rotor rotates. Not sure what you could do to lighten the Rotor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 It is where you add material to the dome thus decreasing the expansion chamber and increasing the pressure/compression. So all that Carbon buildup may not be a bad thing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kostritzer Posted March 6, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted March 6, 2010 Does the PC V allow you to advance ignition timing? You probably won't be able to make any large gains without the ability to advance the timing for a given RPM. Air intakes and fuel trims are all helpful for fine tuning, but ignition timing will make the largest gains outside of internal engine mods on a normally aspirated engine. Given the fact that the 5th gen was tuned from the factory to run on 87 octane, higher octane fuel will allow you to run more timing which is almost guaranteed to net you some HP and more importantly torque! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted March 6, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted March 6, 2010 He fixed too many to count, but knew that their failure was due to poor mfg/materials, not as much oiling. Negative... Honda great cam shaft crisis wasn't mfg/materials... Honda's great cam shaft crisis was the result of a factory cost cutting measure... they choose to mill the cam bearing blocks separately... there was no matching of components... consequently the cam bearing blocks were not line bored with the head... if the tolerances happened to add up... the cam will flop about in the head.. you'll notice the edge of the cams fail first... a sure sign the cam shaft tilted and was allowed to strike the follower at an angle... this also explains why some cams go 100K while other only 20K... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gll429 Posted March 6, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted March 6, 2010 look up DURBAN RC30.. this guy has done everything you can think of.. and stuff you never dreamed of!! :unsure: :fing02: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ryanme17 Posted March 6, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted March 6, 2010 Does the PC V allow you to advance ignition timing? You probably won't be able to make any large gains without the ability to advance the timing for a given RPM. Air intakes and fuel trims are all helpful for fine tuning, but ignition timing will make the largest gains outside of internal engine mods on a normally aspirated engine. Given the fact that the 5th gen was tuned from the factory to run on 87 octane, higher octane fuel will allow you to run more timing which is almost guaranteed to net you some HP and more importantly torque! That's a negative. The PCIII has an ignition module--for other motorcycles, but not for the VFR. The old PCII gives some ignition timing variation. But there's nothing on the website for ignition timing adjust on the PCV (except for a harness that removes the ignition retard "knock sensor" on late model CBR's). I agree that when you're spending $1200 on an exhaust to gain 1 extra horsepower, advancing the timing and using higher octane fuel makes sense. I think that would be at least 3 horsepower, probably more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted March 7, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted March 7, 2010 I don't why I didn't think of this before... but here is my story... Is bigger really better??? My friend Stephen called long distance from England because he just installed a $900.00 HRC air box on his RC45 and saw 120HP on the dyno... mmmmm... together we wondered if the stock box be modified??? HRC air Box... We found that stock RC45 throttle bodies are 46mm but the air box was restricted to 40mm... no problem... I'll bore the air box out to 47mm on the milling machine... I drew up plans for 47mm bell mouth based on the stock 40mm bell mouths and purchased a block of black Delrin... I'm not happy doing repetitious work but I labored long hours to machine 4 each bell mouths with my best accuracy... Don't you love when a plan comes together especially if it turns out perfect??? Now I had an unrestricted air box with my own 47mm bell mouths... it was the best I could do to replicate HRC $900.00 air box... not to mention I wanted to keep my home made K&N filter... Time to put the Mod to the test... this is Dave at Chandelle Motorsports... No joy... I lost 1.8HP on the dyno... so bigger is not better in this case... a whole week worth of work shot down in flames... it seems Honda got the intake velocity right for a stock pipe after all... air boxes are like tuned instruments... alter the holes and the tune suffers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer sa1713 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 7, 2010 Larry, Thank you for the air box post. Very educational. With the porting, polishing and dome work, along with the larger diameter header (38mm v OEM 36mm), do you think a larger intake would be beneficial? Coderighter and I have PM'd each other to death regarding retro fitting the PC V to the non evap canister model years. Speed and temp mapping is a snap. What I need to do is find a vacuum source to run a switch from in order to turn the Autotune off/on based upon accel/decel. Keep chiming in please. All info is very welcomed. More as I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 He fixed too many to count, but knew that their failure was due to poor mfg/materials, not as much oiling. Negative... Honda great cam shaft crisis wasn't mfg/materials... Honda's great cam shaft crisis was the result of a factory cost cutting measure... they choose to mill the cam bearing blocks separately... there was no matching of components... consequently the cam bearing blocks were not line bored with the head... if the tolerances happened to add up... the cam will flop about in the head.. you'll notice the edge of the cams fail first... a sure sign the cam shaft tilted and was allowed to strike the follower at an angle... this also explains why some cams go 100K while other only 20K... Isn't this the definition of using poor MFG/Materials? instead of line boring they milled the blocks in parts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted March 7, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted March 7, 2010 Larry, Thank you for the air box post. Very educational. With the porting, polishing and dome work, along with the larger diameter header (38mm v OEM 36mm), do you think a larger intake would be beneficial? Opening the front door (air box) along with opening up the back door (larger diameter header) usually needs more than port and polish... I think you'll also may need more compression along with bumpier cams... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kostritzer Posted March 7, 2010 Member Contributer Share Posted March 7, 2010 Larry, Thank you for the air box post. Very educational. With the porting, polishing and dome work, along with the larger diameter header (38mm v OEM 36mm), do you think a larger intake would be beneficial? Opening the front door (air box) along with opening up the back door (larger diameter header) usually needs more than port and polish... I think you'll also may need more compression along with bumpier cams... I agree Larry, the cams are key for this motor. If we can find someone to make some relatively inexpensive cams for the 5th gen then all kinds of doors should open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer sa1713 Posted March 8, 2010 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 8, 2010 I'm checking with the EBD to see if the cams can be worked as well. On another note regarding the PC V for my 98 non Cali model. Coderighter installed a PC V on his 6th gen and also has the Autotune. He has mapped by gear/speed, temp, and has a vacuum switch for turning the Autotune off/on during accel and decel. We've discovered that the 5th gen wire harness matches along years so I can tap into it for the map by gear/speed and engine temp without issue. The vacuum switch was another story. Coderighter removed his EVAP canister and solenoid and used the vacuum hose to tap into the four vacuum hoses connected to the injectors. On my bike, no such thing, the four hoses die at the airbox and never join each other. So, I'll find a 4 into 1 connector, add a length of hose and drop a vacuum switch onto that. This will solve my vacuum source hunt. Many thanks to Coderighter for diagnosing my situation. More as I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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