Member Contributer vfrcapn Posted October 26, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 26, 2014 I admire your persistence! Hope it all works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted October 26, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 26, 2014 Phil, I'm impressed. I had come to a conclusion that if you wanted the most powerful engine, then a 6th gen would be easier. It would appear that my rough estimates & basic measurements were out quite a bit in some cases, so apollogies for that & congratulations on the perseverance to get this far. Most of your issues appear to have come from the poor cam company :(. I used Piper cams in the UK & they provided an excellent service & whilst I was unable to confirm the timing sheet they supplied with the cams, as my engine was in one piece, they slotted in perfectly with only thicker shims required to get the clearances right. Yesterday in 1st-3rd gear on my Rapid Bike first shake down run I took it all the way to the new 12,500rpm limiter a few times & the bike held together I know it's not an exhaustive test, but nice to know it will hold together, not often on the road it gets that high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted October 26, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 26, 2014 Phil, I'm impressed. I had come to a conclusion that if you wanted the most powerful engine, then a 6th gen would be easier. It would appear that my rough estimates & basic measurements were out quite a bit in some cases, so apollogies for that & congratulations on the perseverance to get this far. Most of your issues appear to have come from the poor cam company :(. I used Piper cams in the UK & they provided an excellent service & whilst I was unable to confirm the timing sheet they supplied with the cams, as my engine was in one piece, they slotted in perfectly with only thicker shims required to get the clearances right. Yesterday in 1st-3rd gear on my Rapid Bike first shake down run I took it all the way to the new 12,500rpm limiter a few times & the bike held together I know it's not an exhaustive test, but nice to know it will hold together, not often on the road it gets that high. Did it pull all the way to the top or did power fall off noticeably leading up to the new rev limit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 What if one simply reused the stock vfr800 cams and timing with the 929 pistons? How would that be for clearances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted October 26, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 26, 2014 Hi Mohawk No apologies necessary. I went in to this with my eyes open. Don't mind a good challenge. Just could do without getting screwed over by suppliers. Yes I must say I am not too impressed with the so called "cam experts" down here in NZ. When I got the first lot of issue I emailed Pipers and never got a response, even after posting a request on their web site. So not sure about any cam people now. When I rechecked the valve to pocket clearances on the 106.5 LC inlet cam I'm a bit short on the clearance I was aiming at. I was shooting for 1mm minimum and ended up at 0.9mm. This was with zero lash so I'll gain a little from the standard valve clearances. For a streety, I think it will be fine. Wouldn't like to run that close on a race engine. Glad to hear the RB Racing is going as expected. I've pretty much got mine sorted on the 6 Gen engine after starting afresh with a zeroed map. 12'5 is a good turn of speed and I'd expect it to hang together, especially a 5th Gen. I take it that you only went an extra 500? Yes you are probably right with the most power from a 6th Gen but I still feel that Honda do not make well engineered chain driven cam engines. Back in the old days the CB900F etc. all used to have chain issues once you started pulling good HP and the slipper design in the VFR is still the same. Not to mention the tensioner issues. The front side chain slipper is straight and at high revs the chain harmonics make it flap and eventually break. Most other makes use a slightly curved slipper that stops the harmonics but Honda don't seem to learn. We had these issues back in the '80 and '90 with Honda Superbikes that made reasonable HP. Not sure if it is perseverance, my wife would call it just blind stubbornness. I need to carry on to the end as I've invested a little more that I was going to at the start and as I said I'm a bit stubborn and cannot let it lie. Must admit I've been tempted to chuck it in a couple of times. But then I'd have a heap of parts and not much else. Veefer800Canuck. I'd expect that the standard cams would be fine but I haven't dialed a set in to make the measurements. You would still need to radially increase/move the pockets anyway as the CBR valve spacing is different to the VFR. If you didn't do that the valves would hit the sides of the pockets. Not a good outcome. You'd have a really good boat anchor. Also the crown and squish area heights need to come down as I mentioned earlier. Without making these mods to the pistons they will hit the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted October 26, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 26, 2014 Rush, well I only did the lower gears & as it was pulling so hard, I only realised it was revving that high as it bumped the limiter. So if you look at my last dyno you can see that it pulls all the way to the old 12,200rpm limiter & I added 300rpm to raise that to 12,500rpm with the rapid bike & it still pulled straight to this new limit with ease. From the last dyno I added fuel to the 90/100% lines, so the RB 95% fuel table reflects this, only a dyno will show how it's going. So I need to tune the ignition advance some & add some more miles the get the fuel tuning sorted before another dyno run. Then it will be stripped to add the TBR exhaust which I hope will help it rev out in the higher gears ! Phil, standard rev limit is 12,200 I raised it 300 on the RB to12,500. Great work on the 825. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted October 28, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 28, 2014 Did a full dummy assemble yesterday and checked all the valve to piston clearances, All were the same as the initial check I did but I thought it best to check them all seeing I had modified all of them by hand. Everything was as expected with enough clearance. Stripped everything down again and washed it all up, ready to do the final assembly. So today I got the bottom end all stitched up and it all came together well. Should be able to finish off the heads tomorrow and get them on and timed up. I need to make up a dummy cooler pipe to directly join the outlet to the inlet in the sump. I can then prime the whole oiling system with a drill before I put the clutch together and the cover on. I'll take some pics once it is all assembled just for prosperity. Cheers Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted October 28, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 28, 2014 Excellent new Phil. I have been working on a replacement oil cooler lines kit. I'm sure a man of your ingenuity can come with a solution :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted October 28, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 28, 2014 Please post pics or a vid of you priming the oil system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keef Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I love this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted October 29, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 29, 2014 Basically priming the lube system entails connecting the 2 ports on the sump that go to the cooler together, putting oil in the engine with out the clutch assembly and cover installed, unbolting the sprocket on the oil pump, and connecting an electric drill to the pump shaft. Figure out which direction you need to turn the shaft and go for it. Don't use too much speed and make sure you have fitted the oil filter. If you have the cam covers off the motor, you should get jets of oil spraying on to the cam lobes, once all the air is out of the system. Oh, also make sure you have fitted the alternator cover as there is a small oil jet in the crankcase in there that sprays on to the back side of the rotor. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted October 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 Well, the motor is assembled and ready to go into the bike. Here is a few shots of the final product. My engraving is not too good but couldn't resist making this change The business end! Next job is getting enough time to strip the bike and fit this! Cheers Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Haha, love the 825cc Hey if you don't have enough time to fit the motor, I really could help you out with that. Just ship it to my address and I'll have it installed in my bike by the end of next week. Oh,no problem, you're welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted October 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 Haha Everyone likes a trier. Nah, think I'll fit it to mine, that all the came LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted October 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 It's gorgeous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted October 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 I didnot understand 99.9% of the technobabble, but that looks HOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted October 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 HighSide - Looks awesome! --- Take lots of photos of it going together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted October 30, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 Very nice Phil. So that's going in a 6th gen right, whats the exhaust system on that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted October 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hi Mohawk Yep. going in a 6th Gen frame. I'm currently running a Delkevic 4 into 1 header and a set of LeoVince cans etc. I'm really hanging out to see what comes from the Tyga exhaust possibility, ot whoever can be found/interested in making a performance pipe for these things. The Delkevic is OK, I think better then the Motad but I would like a tuned length system and I'm too old and my hands aren't as steady as they used to be or I'd make my own. Just started the stripping of the bike today so the motor in should not be too far off. Then we will see if my handy work has paid off! Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted October 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 Amazing work!!! Wow... that looks gorgeous and I hope it performs as well as it looks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted October 31, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2014 Before anyone make the comment that the coil pack look like they are sticking up really high on the cam covers. I've just had the ability to measure the Gen 5 and Gen 6 heads and low and behold the Gen 6 heads are 16.5mm taller than the Gen 5. Hence the coil packs sit higher on the Gen 5 motor. Just about got the old motor out today, after I did a full cleanup in the workshop. Hoping to have the new motor in the frame tomorrow. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrcapn Posted October 31, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2014 3 days from test fit to complete final assembly?! Want to come to the states for a long weekend and put mine together?? Very amazed, you've got a nice looking motor there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted October 31, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2014 Nice one Phil, yeah be great if the Tyga thing comes off i scored a TBR full system for mine came pre-coated with ceramic, so even better :) Did you get a dyno run of your 6th gen motor with the rapid bike you have ? Be interested to see a comparison on same dyno. That's why I keep taking mine back to JHS so the same machine throws the numbers :) Got a day off next week to put some miles on mine & try to get the RB Racing dialled in before a dyno run with motad headers, then I'll fit the TBR & see what difference it makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HighSideNZ Posted November 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted November 1, 2014 I discovered today that the 5th Gen clutch slave cylinder piston is 2mm larger in diameter than the 6th Gen. Also, if you have ever had a 6th Gen motor out of the frame, you will have noticed how tight it is in the frame due to the oilway plugs on the head for the VTec stuff sticking out quite a long way. They get caught up on the wiring loom on the left side. Well the 5th Gen slides in with plenty of room to spare. One problem you face is due to the 16mm shorter cylinder heads. The hole in the frame on the right hand side to allow you to check the cam timing mark doesn't line up anymore for the rear exhaust cam. Another is again due to the shorter heads is the bottom brackets for the radiators need a bit of bending to get the rads to fit. Apart from the above, I've not come across anything that is a real problem. Here is some images of the install Backend fully removed and bike supported on frame stand Draining the oil cooler etc. before engine removal Lifter in place taking weight of engine with mount bolts out Engine out and sitting on the lifter. Engine dolly in foreground 6th Gen engine in dolly and 5th Gen engine ready to fit to frame Lifting engine in to place In place and bolted up Cheers Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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