Zumo & TomTom are Obsolete

[VietHorse]

Still busy with GPS...

Still get lost even having those:

Damn it! A smart phone may help. But it need to be rugged first.

[ericlw]

Can someone explain to me why people need all this gps stuff just to get around?i know people who use their gps constantly even to go places they have been hundreds of times.

[FJ12Ryder]

If you don't travel much then it is pretty hard to understand, but if you like to head out for 2-3 weeks and you have a destination then the GPS beats the pants off paper maps. I've used paper maps for 40 years and AFAIC the GPS is one of the greatest things since sliced bread.

I love to use mine to find those cool twisty, scenic roads when I get to an unknown area. And pulling up to a 4-way stop and just glancing at the GPS screen to see I need to go right is soooo much quicker than finding my place on a paper map on the tankbag.

Like I said if you don't really travel much, you don't really need one that much. But they are great when it comes time to find your way to an address in a big subdivision where all the streets look the same.

[Knife]

I like the accurate speedo and the ETA features.

[Solomoto]

As the thread starter, I guess I should chime in once more. I just returned from a 3600 mile two week trip thru UT, CO, NM, AZ from CA. I used CoPilot Live exclusively on my phone and didn't even bother bringing my Zumo as backup because I wanted to shed as much weight as possible.

This is more of a mini-review of CoPilot application than anything, I must say the application leaves several things to be desired compared to Garmin but on the other hand it does a few things a Zumo can't do quite as well. The navigation of CoPilot has bugs or quirks that are frustrating to say the least. If the route is interrupted and restarted in the middle of the route it tries to direct you back to the beginning apparently because every few hundred yards or next turn opportunity it tells you to make a U-turn which I can only assume is to the start of the route! The only way to get around this is to quit the route and enter the destination from where you happen to be, but that is easier said than done if you want a specific predetermined route. Frustrating as hell. Also, the menu structure and logic is amatuer at best. Navigating the menus is a maze with no intuitive path, for example displaying your recent tracks is buried deep in the Settings menu where you least expect to find it.

The lack of compatible files and lack of interface to say MS Streets&Trips means doing all the routing in the application which is very tedious. I did find a convenient file format converter which can take a gpx route file from S&T and convert it to CoPilot format which I can then load to a specific folder but this assumes you know which folder to place it in. At least this is better than doing it in the CoPilot application.

What can CoPilot do better than a Garmin? The real time weather reports is convenient and no extra charge. Also, the Live Services is good which supplies local or nearby services obtained from a cellular data network unlike Garmin which relies on a static database. Also, CoPilot has something called Live Link which can report your position at specified time intervals to other users via email. Of course this assumes you have a good cellular data connection, if you're out of range, then it won't work. SPOT uses satellite data link which is much more reliable if you need tracking service for safety purposes.

Overall I give CoPilot 3/5 stars. Not nearly as polished as Garmin in terms of pure navigation functionality and maturity but this is not the limitation of the smartphone but of the application developer. In time these warts should be resolved and/or other competitors will come out with a superior product. I stand by my original assertion that smartphones are ushering out the days of standalone GPS devices like the Zumo. With this one device, it served all of my communication and navigation needs for the entire trip. The future is now and it will only get better!

[vfrcapn]

The future is now and it will only get better!

Thanks for the review. Did you use the CoPilot Live USA which is $10? What does that offer that the CoPilot GPS app (free) doesn't? They also mention CoPilot standard and premium versions? Like HS I have the Razr Maxx and want to try out the GPS capabilities, the screen is almost as large as my ancient Garmin eTrex. I've driven with other people using the voice turn-by-turn GPS directions and almost tossed them out of the car until they shut it off. I don't see myself ever relying on that feature.

I get the idea that smartphones are an expensive luxury but really my unlimited data plan only adds $30/month to my basic cell service fee. I don't see this phone replacing a dedicated GPS but have it mainly for the dozens of other capabilities it offers. I'd bet within a few years dedicated GPS units will be gone but smartphone's capabilities in the GPS navigation area still need some work.

[VietHorse]

Can someone explain to me why people need all this gps stuff just to get around?i know people who use their gps constantly even to go places they have been hundreds of times.

I think FJ12Ryder's reply quite enough for the usage of GPS for car.

There are also someone else love to use GPS devices because:

- they like to keep the tracklog of their trips. This is very beautiful function of GPS, which mainly furnished with handheld GPS devices or Garmin GPS devices. The tracklog contains the route you have traveled, with traveling time, elevation, speed... etc...

"Using a GPS tracking device as a “pen,” Nick Newcomen drove 12,328 miles around 30 states to draw the message “Read Ayn Rand” on America":

- many people has the hobby called visiting confluences. "The goal of the project is to visit each of the latitude and longitude integer degree intersections in the world, and to take pictures at each location". This combines between sort of wild traveling and technical geographic skill. A good site to understand about confluences if you like to visit: http://confluence.org/

An example of a confluence visited:

[Solomoto]

The future is now and it will only get better!

Thanks for the review. Did you use the CoPilot Live USA which is $10? What does that offer that the CoPilot GPS app (free) doesn't? They also mention CoPilot standard and premium versions? Like HS I have the Razr Maxx and want to try out the GPS capabilities, the screen is almost as large as my ancient Garmin eTrex. I've driven with other people using the voice turn-by-turn GPS directions and almost tossed them out of the car until they shut it off. I don't see myself ever relying on that feature.

I get the idea that smartphones are an expensive luxury but really my unlimited data plan only adds $30/month to my basic cell service fee. I don't see this phone replacing a dedicated GPS but have it mainly for the dozens of other capabilities it offers. I'd bet within a few years dedicated GPS units will be gone but smartphone's capabilities in the GPS navigation area still need some work.

I use CoPilot Live NA which covers US, Canada, and Mexico. I'm guessing the free version doesn't have any maps which makes sense. I don't know what the other differences are, you should check their website.

I disagree that smartphone GPS capabilities still needs work vs. a dedicated GPS device. The hardware capabilities are virtually the same i.e. the GPS receiver electronics in a smartphone is as good as if not better than that of a dedicated GPS device. I say better because a smartphone can take exploit assisted-GPS that a dedicated GPS device cannot. A-GPS uses cellular signals to vector it's location more quickly than GPS satellites alone and by combining the two, the location acquisition is both faster and more accurate. I'm involved in smartphone design and I can tell you the GPS electronics these days are integrated modules that any commercial device manufacturer can employ in their products. The differentiating features is always the application software as I've already described. You would be correct to bet dedicated GPS devices will soon be gone, but it won't be a few years from now, it is already happening.

[Solomoto]

Here is my smartphone cradle on the VFR. It's simply the auto windshield suction mounted cradle for my phone which happens to be a Motorola Droid Bionic. This worked very well and never came loose at all after nearly 4K miles. It's powered from the cigarette lighter adaptor.

[VietHorse]

I don't know how the cellphone screen and internal parts are designed.

I supposed the screen of cell phones are not the type of turning continuously for long time, and more, with high vibration.

[luvtoleanit]

Resurrecting this thread to ask this question....

If currently you didn't own a Garmin or Tom Tom would you buy one instead of using your smartphone? I ask because I'm starting to research this and I'm on the fence. My smartphone (iphone5) takes care of a lot of duties and adding another to it, well, causes some pause in me. But then I look at the Garmin price new vs. buying some kind of case for the phone to mount on the bike and I lean towards using the phone. I've recently acquired Sena's new SMH10R so I'm getting ancy I guess. $600 or $700 vs. some $10 or $20 software and a good solid mount for under $100 seems like a no brainer. Is the app map software on the phones that good? Do they allow you to preload twisty routes?

Sorry not trying to beat the dead horse but figured I'd ask for a 2013 take. I've had in dash GPS units in my last several cars and the phone comes awfully close. The camera in the phone is good enough these days that I don't pack the pocket cam any more as it's one less thing to carry.

[2thdr]

I am using my DroidX with CoPilot Live since my zumo 450 died a few months ago. I am less than happy. First off, you need a USB power supply that will give you 2.1A instead of 1A if you are going to keep the screen going full time. Without some sort of capacative stylus you can't operate the phone with gloves. Re-routing on th fly with CoPilot and Google Nav is way worse than the Garmin software (zumo). Frequently after CoPilot gives me some verbal directions it will fail to go back to my MP3 that was playing and I'm stuck with stopping, removing gloves, and restarting music player...PITA! Google Nav will not work if you get outside of data coverage area for your phone, and CoPilot seems to have problems then as well.

There is an article out there (can't remember which MC magagzine), about 1-2 years old that talks about using a cheaper (Nuvi) car navigator on a bike and how to make it work. I am considering buying a refurbished nuvi 2595 LMT and a cradle from RAM mounts.

[xDutchx]

See, I have the exact opposite opinion. I've been using CoPilot on my S2 Samsung with Bluetooth to my SENA since last season. Bluetooth integration is seamless. Turn by turn, phone calls, and the mp3 player integration work perfectly. Hell, the re-route is quicker than my old Garmin. It was a little tougher to pre-program routes until I found RouteConverter for the PC which saves in .trp format for CoPilot. The only issue I have is not being able to manipulate it through my gloves. And even then, sometimes a long press will work.

[DownAndOutNYC]

TomTom has a Android app. Though not feature rich, its navigation capabilities are top notch. The voice for TTS is the best I've heard so far, much better then my old Nuvi 750. Routing is great too and it works without data.

I do have to say though, that I've found myself using Waze (another navigation app) much more often. It uses user created/edited maps, so its the most up to date maps you can get anywhere. Not only that, but like Google, it has free traffic, but the traffic is also closer to real-time because it uses the information of other Waze users on the road to gather traffic data. Routing, although sometimes slow to calculate and re-calculate if you go off track, is also good (though some addresses do need to be fixed). Although it's been around for a while, it's still in its infancy. Previously, it only routed between home and work, but has recently added on the ability to route to other locations. With the traffic data it gathers and accurate maps, it's estimation of arrival at a location are near spot on. It does use your phone data though it is light on that, so I keep the TomTom app as a backup. But so far though, I haven't had to use TomTom at all ever since I discovered Waze. Give it a try, even if it in a 4-wheel just going back and fourth to work. The more people who use it, the better it can get.

[2thdr]

Perhaps Samsung phone integration is superior to Motorola DroidX. More than likely your data coverage density is better than my location where it is spotty. I have the Sena SMH-10 also. Frequently I would like to be able to search for gas, food on the fly if out in the boonies with no traffic. Without a functioning glove-friendly touch screen that is impossible!

[BonusVFR]

I recently joined the 21st century and picked up a smartphone.

I have used it on several recent MC tours. My preference at this point is that I will stick with the Zumo as the primary nav device and employ the smartphone as a backup. Perhaps I am just used to the rugged, waterproof Zumo device which is easy to use with gloves. Also I continue to plan my tours/trips on my PC and download the file to my Zumo. Having the same mapset on the PC & Zumo makes things easier. Plus as others have mentioned I also record my tour tracks for review.

I continue to review additional potential smartphone software but they seem mostly point and shoot apps and invariably my routes are more complex. On my car I have been using the smartphone as my primary Nav device to better familiarize myself with its capabilities.

[spud786]

THe real GPS units work off satelite, cell phones are off cell towers.

I'll stick with the real thing, satelite!

since I have to depend on it for my job.

[FJ12Ryder]

I cannot say for sure because I have a total of about 10 minutes on my cell phone I bought 5 years ago, but I think there are some of the smart phones that also work off the GPS satellites. Or so I have read anyway.

[2thdr]

The cell phone definitely uses GPS. It's just that the Google Nav software in particular seems to need a data connection to render the maps. Much of the processing for the smart phones is done in the cloud. For instance to use my speech to text feature on my phone I MUST have a data connection. The phone cannot process the speech on its own.

[Dutchy]

GPS???

Smartphone?

Wear this one and you will alwyas be abel to navigate around the world!!!

[motormike]

Dutchy, you posted that same pic in Oct 2011 in this thread.

[NorthernVFRDave]

I've had my Zumo 450 for 7 years and its still going strong. I'm on my 4th smartphone over that same time frame. Mostly because the battery gets cooked from too many charge cycles.

A data connection to keep the maps updated, GPS active for position, screen brightness full to see in sunlight, along with being plugged in and enclosed in a weather proof case, one would think would cause the phone to run hot, killing the life of the battery.

Then there is the whole issue of needing a data connection. Lots of places I ride at home, have holes where you can travel 40-50miles with no cell service. Heck down around The Gap cell service is zero everywhere in a lot of places.

Your smartphone might be ok, for short trips. But any major ride planning I'd want my standalone unit to guide the way.

[V4 Rosso]

THe real GPS units work off satelite, cell phones are off cell towers.

I'll stick with the real thing, satelite!

since I have to depend on it for my job.

Cell phones have built in GSP receivers too and are (at least mine is) as accurate as a regular GPS unit. Cell phones use cell tower signals to get a rough estimation of their global position which quickens the satellite fix.

Regular GPS receivers (TomTom, Garmin) that support WAAS/EGNOS not only use GPS satellites but also groundstations for even more accuracy.

[vanion2]

Well, I have the Zumo 450 and just recently moved to the Smartphone realm. That being said I also have the life time map updates from Garmin. Since I already paid for the Zumo, have the latest maps (just updated this week no less), don't have to worry about weather proofing it, and everything is already setup for my bike I don't need the smartphone to pull double duty keeping it for emergencies only.

That and even though the screen is nice and the phone has a lot of nice features I dont want to load my data plan by using the navigation setup and the screen is not nearly as easy to read in direct sunlight as the Zumo.

If your concern is for 2 lbs of weight for a GPS then I don't know what to say. I have a camera bag I store mine in along with all my camera equipment and can't say it slows me down much.

Not saying that smartphones aren't awesome. I love mine just because it has made impromptu intelligence gathering a snap as well as helped me navigate to a few new places in my cages but as a replacement for my Zumo on the VFR? No thanks. But that's the beautiful thing about this topic. You can go either way and if you are happy with your setup then you are good to go.

[Hail]

Plus, I'm not sure if the phone will have the actual maps on internal memory. It will probably use location information from the nearest cellphone mast to identify where you are and start downloading map data. It will continue to download more map data as you travel along/based on the destination you entered. So if your subscription includes unlimitted data, you are good to go. Just stay away from any border as you may pick up a signal from a cellphone mast on the other side. You will get hit with roaming charges.... Kerching!!!!!

The app I use on my iPhone allows me to download maps from my route to the phone. You don't need data to sues it.