1998 to 2000 conversion

[Bronco]

3 hours ago, VeeEffArah said:

 Lastly, I called Sargent to remove the dish from the '00 sargent seat

Be sure to have your requested work clearly acknowledged in a response from Sargeant.

 

You don't want to end up talking to the shop manager who finally admits that "no.......we didn't do the custom shaping on your seat as stated in the invoice, we just recovered it. The guy that used to do that sort of work is no longer working in the shop. How about if Sargeant gives you a credit on some future work or purchase? Would ya be happy with that?"

 

 

[bmart]

I just want the seat flat...like all seats should be. They haven't modified anything, because while I'd be in at $80, I'm out at nearly $400. 

[bmart]

A while back someone(s) was looking for risers like my ones from Belarus. (Straight height addition like the old Genmars.) It looks like there is one on fleabay. 

 

Looks like just two left. 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224430614935

[bmart]

Going to have another go at this yellow bike suspension. It still isn't very nice to ride, despite the expense of suspension. With the forks set to the same place in the triples, the rear is WAY higher than the '98 when on the center stand. Something is absolutely wonky. 

 

Measured at helmet lock, rear is 15mm higher than VFR98. 
Measured at rear light, rear is 24mm taller than VFR98. 
Measured at side seat bolt is ~9mm taller than VFR98. 

 

My brain went to the challenge of installing that Bitubo set to the same 330mm as the '98 and the '99 before it. But with the bike on the center stand...it doesn't point to shock length. 

 

Open to great ideas, as I'm running out of them. 

[bmart]

Follow up...I had a buddy come and take a look with me to ensure I wasn't out of my mind. It gets stranger...

 

I checked p/ns of additional parts to find out that they are/should be identical. They include frame, subframe, swingarm, centerstand (you'll see why soon). The rear is visually much higher on VFR00 than on VFR98. Shock length and forks are setup the same on both bikes. 

 

Forks show as set up the same in the triple. Taking initial sag measurement confirms this. 

 

Shock length is verified (again) as identical in the bikes. Shocks are both 330mm. VFR98 went in smoothly with plenty of room. You may remember VFR00 shock was a absolute b%&th to get in. So much so that it broke and had to be repaired. Something isn't right. And with all of the extra room...shouldn't it have been easier to get in?

 

For peace of mind, I measured a few things related to geometry and some others for confirmation of the visual. 

 

Bottom of axle to horizontal at helmet lock is 377mm on VFR00 and 366 on VFR98. 11 mm delta. 

Bottom of axle to floor on centerstand is 305mm on VFR00 and 295 on VFR98. 11 mm delta. 

No weight sag taken in same place is 377mm on VFR00 and 366 on VFR98. 11 mm delta. 

 

11mm is killing me and I don't know why there's a variance. Anyone? With the rear in the air, shouldn't they be identical with the same length shock in there? 

 

Riding these two bikes back to back is night and day. The '98 is brilliant and the '00...sucks a lot. 

 

[raYzerman]

Are your triangle plates in the correct orientation, or at least the same on both bikes?  This will alter rear ride height.

[bmart]

They are, and they are sized identically. 

[Captain 80s]

Take the wheel off, disconnect the lower shock mount and find out where that swingarm is hitting something.

 

Lift the swingarm slightly and let it come down to "contact".  Keep tracing the knock sound and find the interference.

 

As I stated previously, maybe there is something different between the years (that is not a suspension piece) that is preventing the same extension, but it didn't matter to Honda cuz they weren't trying to install a longer than 98 stock shock in a 00.

[Hingley]

I am by no means an expert on the 1998-2001 VFR's but when I read this the first thing I think of is that the 1998-1999 VFR's had an exhaust system without O2 sensors etc. while the 2000-2001 had an exhaust with O2 sensors and was a different design.

[Captain 80s]

32 minutes ago, Hingley said:

I am by no means an expert on the 1998-2001 VFR's but when I read this the first thing I think of is that the 1998-1999 VFR's had an exhaust system without O2 sensors etc. while the 2000-2001 had an exhaust with O2 sensors and was a different design.

 

What I was thinking close to a year ago.  The swingarm seems to be hitting SOMETHING earlier than a 98.

 

On 4/10/2023 at 11:35 AM, Captain 80s said:

With the shock out let the swingarm hit whatever it is it wants to hit and try and chase the sound (or feel).

 

Maybe the exhaust from 99 to 00 has a change that the swingarm wants to hit earlier, but isn't an issue with a stock length shock.

[bmart]

I've had that shock in/out many times and couldn't find anything in the way. 

 

I hoped that someone with the pre/post O2/cat setup could measure theirs and see if I am chasing ghosts. 

[Captain 80s]

1 hour ago, bmart said:

I've had that shock in/out many times and couldn't find anything in the way. 

 

I hoped that someone with the pre/post O2/cat setup could measure theirs and see if I am chasing ghosts. 

 

So with the shock out the swingarm will drop and hit the floor?!  No, it stops against SOMETHING.

 

Something is in the way...   before it gets extended as far as the 98.  What is it?

 

You've already been chasing ghosts for a year by not seeing where each swingarm hits and comparing what that is and how is it different.

 

So if someone else says, "Mine's the same.", you're gonna be all of a sudden OK with it?  Nope, doesn't sound like it.  Either yours is the same or different.  It doesn't change your situation between YOUR two bikes...  one you like, one you don't.

 

What is the difference?  What can be done about it?

[fabio222]

On 2/27/2024 at 8:28 PM, bmart said:

Going to have another go at this yellow bike suspension. It still isn't very nice to ride, despite the expense of suspension. With the forks set to the same place in the triples, the rear is WAY higher than the '98 when on the center stand. Something is absolutely wonky. 

 

Measured at helmet lock, rear is 15mm higher than VFR98. 
Measured at rear light, rear is 24mm taller than VFR98. 
Measured at side seat bolt is ~9mm taller than VFR98. 

 

My brain went to the challenge of installing that Bitubo set to the same 330mm as the '98 and the '99 before it. But with the bike on the center stand...it doesn't point to shock length. 

 

Open to great ideas, as I'm running out of them. 

 

You've probably done this already but have you put everything back to stock? Stock fork internals and air gap and oil spec? Stock shock with no shims to mess with height etc?

 

That's what I'd do and see what happens from there. Might be a daft thought but I'd check the chain and ensure that's not causing any swingarm issues. Maybe remove the centre stand as well in case that could be the cause of any issues.

[Captain 80s]

20 minutes ago, fabio222 said:

 

You've probably done this already but have you put everything back to stock? Stock fork internals and air gap and oil spec? Stock shock with no shims to mess with height etc?

 

That's what I'd do and see what happens from there. Might be a daft thought but I'd check the chain and ensure that's not causing any swingarm issues. Maybe remove the centre stand as well in case that could be the cause of any issues.

 

Have you read any more than the current page of posts?

[bmart]

Current plan:

 

Test as is with new tires. Should fell much better from a turning point of view, but won't likely affect suspension issues. 

 

Take measurements when hot and in gear on both VFRs and adjust if necessary.

 

If still bad, adjust fork height in triple tree to better match rear height difference.

 

If still bad, modify damping.

 

If still bad, swap to Ebay bodywork and sell. 

[Captain 80s]

Anything but actually find out why you can't get the rear ride height you want, and have on the 98.

[bmart]

I've look a bunch of times, Captain. There doesn't seem to be anything to "find." That is why I want someone else's measurements. 

[Captain 80s]

2 hours ago, bmart said:

I've look a bunch of times, Captain. There doesn't seem to be anything to "find." That is why I want someone else's measurements. 

 

That doesn't make any sense.  What the fuck is the swingarm hitting when it stops moving without a shock attached to it?  Or...  What two parts are contacting each other when the swingarm stops moving?  That is precisely the thing to "find".

 

Just say it if you know it.

 

There is a difference between your two bikes, and seems it is likely due to the changes from model year 99 to 00.  Somebody else's measurements isn't going to change that.

 

Maybe there is something that can be addressed to get what you want, even if there is nothing "technically" wrong with the 00.  But you first have to identify what parts are hitting each other and how.  Then you can see if you can / want to make some modification(s) to get some more swingarm travel to put the shock at the length you want.

[MBrane]

IME the first things to interfere with swingarm down travel is the dogbone against the exhaust (varies by what type of pipe), and the chain guard mount boss against the L peg mount. 

 

The ONLY thing that can change ride height other than major mods to the cushion or swing arm linkage mounts or the swingarm pivot (highly unlikely) is the shock, and the linkage itself. I once bought a 4th gen track bike project from a member here, and in the pile of parts was a variety of traingles, and dogbones from many different Hondas. Some appeared to be identical, but if fact were slightly different. The nature of the linkage on the the VFR is it takes very little to make a large difference in ride height.

 

I would double check all your bolt to bolt measurements on the linkage to be sure.

[Captain 80s]

9 minutes ago, MBrane said:

IME the first things to interfere with swingarm down travel is the dogbone against the exhaust (varies by what type of pipe), and the chain guard mount boss against the L peg mount. 

 

The ONLY thing that can change ride height other than major mods to the cushion or swing arm linkage mounts or the swingarm pivot (highly unlikely) is the shock, and the linkage itself. I once bought a 4th gen track bike project from a member here, and in the pile of parts was a variety of traingles, and dogbones from many different Hondas. Some appeared to be identical, but if fact were slightly different. The nature of the linkage on the the VFR is it takes very little to make a large difference in ride height.

 

I would double check all your bolt to bolt measurements on the linkage to be sure.

 

You as well...   how many posts of this thread have you actually read?

 

He is trying to install a custom shock set to the same length as the custom shock on his 98, but the 00 swingarm won't extend far enough to take that length.  But is unable, or unwilling, to find out what two parts are hitting each other.

 

All the stock components have been verified as correct and correctly installed.  Exhausts on the two bikes are stock and appear undamaged.

[Terry]

I don't have the patience to read back very far. Is the eccentric adjuster for the rear wheel flipped over?

[Captain 80s]

Previously he stated that he could not install the shock in the 00 @ 330mm like the 98, and that's when he started verifying the linkage configuration.  And then the shock got fucked up trying to add shock length after install, which was really just pre-loading the spring more.  If it is/was such a f-ing bitch to get in after repair and set at 330mm, I think there is a good chance he is actually having to compress the shock to get it in because the swingarm is bottomed against something, is then losing installed shock length and subsequently the ride height he thinks he should have realized.

 

So bmart...  can you install the 330mm shock in the 00 by just sliding the mounting bolts in?  You should actually have to lift the swingarm a tad to get the last bolt in if you truly have enough swingarm travel.

[bmart]

7 hours ago, Terry said:

I don't have the patience to read back very far. Is the eccentric adjuster for the rear wheel flipped over?

I wish. They're both set the same. 

 

Poking around the parts list, the shocks are different part numbers. I can try to find mine and see if length differs. Still, there has to be another part(s) that would drive that shorter shock. I just can't find it. Regardless, I'll likely have to pull the plates/dogbone, shorter the shock 2-3mm (assuming that'll get me close to removing that 11mm delta) and get on with life....hopefully it will be very similar in measurements to the '98, let me set sag again on both ends...and ride this sucker...maybe to the rally. 

 

I took some "better" measurements tonight. The forks are the same length. New tires on bothe etc. At the back, helmet lock is 11mm higher on '00. 4mm is between floor and bottom of axle bolt and 7mm is between axle bolt and helmet lock. 

[bmart]

11 hours ago, Captain 80s said:

But is unable, or unwilling, to find out what two parts are hitting each other.

Admittedly, I'm grumpy about it...but I'll get there. 

 

Unencumbered by facts, I suspect that the shock is shorter to accommodate the cat. Perhaps max length is shorter on the '00 and 330mm just isn't right. I can easily make up for that with my limited brain power...soon. 

 

I appreciate the input and sarcasm. 

[Captain 80s]

13 minutes ago, bmart said:

Admittedly, I'm grumpy about it...but I'll get there. 

 

Unencumbered by facts, I suspect that the shock is shorter to accommodate the cat. Perhaps max length is shorter on the '00 and 330mm just isn't right. I can easily make up for that with my limited brain power...soon. 

 

I appreciate the input and sarcasm. 

 

It's not sarcasm...  it is genuine confusion.  I'd swear you're gaslighting me at this point.

 

The stock shock doesn't have to be shorter at all to still install in the same space because Honda is not trying to install a 330 mm shock!

 

The bikes are different...  somewhere.  You seem to have finally realized it.  Find out where that goddam swingarm hits and prevents the same full extension distance as the 98 and see if there is something you can do about it to install the shock pre-set at 330.  Nothing else on that bike has been changed geometry wise between the years.  Different shock part numbers don't have to mean anything more than a valving change or a change to a finish color one one stupid, inconsequential part.