Cornering, Lean Angle & Getting Off Your Bike

[BusyLittleShop]

I second Keith's excellent book... my confidence soared after reading and

applying Twist of Wrist 2...

In 2006 I was even invited by Cobie Fair (Keith Code's chief instructor) to try out for a
Superbike School Instructor slot at Reno Fernly where he evaluated my track
riding skills...

[OutlawsJustice]

1. Vision controls everything we do on a motorcycle. this includes throttle, braking and turning.

a.) throttle and brakes effect the suspension (so in turn in many aspects vision has an effect on suspension)

2. Body position has a great impact on vision (So does fear and your mental state)

a.) Moving around on the bike also has an impact on Suspension so we don't want to do it while in the turn)

3. Throttle and brakes or a combination of can be used to change your line in a turn, Yes you can Tighten your line using the brakes as well as making the bike run wide, it is how they are used that has the impact. (these are not newby skills)

a.) Trail braking (Is not impacted by linked brakes as it can be done with either brake or both)

b.) trail braking allows you to make changes to the brakes or throttle with very little reaction time and also without upsetting the bikes suspension.

So many people tell you to "Be Smooth" ok, I'll bite, what does that mean?

Instead of telling someone to be smooth give them the tools to be smooth, show them the things they can control, how to control them and they will become smooth. It starts with Vision, Throttle and brakes, and moves forward from there.

You cannot just tell someone to be smooth, if they knew how they already would be.

To the O.P. search out and take a class, learn to separate dirt techinques from street (Some cross over, many do not) and learn what and how to be smooth. Most people "Think" they are until they see what it really is and how to achieve it.

Even When I teach the basic stuff, You have to work on vision before the rest works! From some BRC Classes!

[Switchblade]

Here is one of my favorite rider improvement references:

http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Vol-High-Performance-Motorcycle/dp/0965045021/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1ABMZ29R47YKC0SPD2YZ

Keith Code's video of the same title is a good memory refresh.

One of these days I would really like to take the California Superbike School at VIR or Barber.

Total Control is also a very good rider improvement reference, as was mentioned in one of the earlier postings.

Good luck.

I have read this book a couple of times and really like it .

[OutlawsJustice]

Books are great and can be a huge help, but nothing better than getting your hands dirty!

[Switchblade]

Here is one of my favorite rider improvement references:

http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Vol-High-Performance-Motorcycle/dp/0965045021/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1ABMZ29R47YKC0SPD2YZ

Keith Code's video of the same title is a good memory refresh.

One of these days I would really like to take the California Superbike School at VIR or Barber.

Total Control is also a very good rider improvement reference, as was mentioned in one of the earlier postings.

Good luck.

I have read this book a couple of times and really like it .

If nothing else read the book and find you a nice empty parking lot and practice some of the books fundamental riding principals.

[OutlawsJustice]

I agree, Read the Book, Read all the books mentioned, they are all good, some better than others depending on your goals etc. And I also agree to get out and get your hands dirty, Practice is no good if you do not practice it correctly, Practice does NOT make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. Breaking bad habits is hard, so it is easier to learn it right the first time.

Get someone who knows what the difference is between right and wrong and can help you get it right to watch you, and work to master it the right way. What a rider thinks thay are doing and what they are really doing is two different things, LOL. Ask CC and his boys what they thought they were doing early on and what the pictures showed them they were really doing.

Practice is good if you are doing it right and the only way to know that is to have someone who knows watch you.

[Switchblade]

Here is one of my favorite rider improvement references:

http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Vol-High-Performance-Motorcycle/dp/0965045021/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1ABMZ29R47YKC0SPD2YZ

Keith Code's video of the same title is a good memory refresh.

One of these days I would really like to take the California Superbike School at VIR or Barber.

Total Control is also a very good rider improvement reference, as was mentioned in one of the earlier postings.

Good luck.

I have read this book a couple of times and really like it .

If nothing else read the book and find you a nice empty parking lot and practice some of the books fundamental riding principals.

For those of you who can't get to someone to watch you any practice is good practice ..

[OutlawsJustice]

LOL, I am going to practice packing parachutes then jumping from planes, I hope the fact that I may not gets the chutes packed right does not impact the Jumping from the plane part of the practice.

On second thought maybe I had better make sure that what I am doing is Right, not just think it's right.

[Switchblade]

Also while on the subject here at MaGhee Tyson NG base there is a complete motorcycle training course and I am in the process of working with the base to offer a MC training event. When all of the details are set I will start another post with the complete info.Do not want to hijack this post but just let out a little info.

P.S. parachutes are optional but planes will be there ...

Looks like i got PM ..

[FJ12Ryder]

I agree, Read the Book, Read all the books mentioned, they are all good, some better than others depending on your goals etc. And I also agree to get out and get your hands dirty, Practice is no good if you do not practice it correctly, Practice does NOT make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. Breaking bad habits is hard, so it is easier to learn it right the first time.

Get someone who knows what the difference is between right and wrong and can help you get it right to watch you, and work to master it the right way. What a rider thinks thay are doing and what they are really doing is two different things, LOL. Ask CC and his boys what they thought they were doing early on and what the pictures showed them they were really doing.

Practice is good if you are doing it right and the only way to know that is to have someone who knows watch you.

Good advice but ulitmately pretty impractical. How do you find "someone who knows what the difference is between right and wrong". Once you find them how can

you be certain that they do indeed know the "difference is between right and wrong"? Take their word for it? Now how do you convince this person to go somewhere

and watch you ride? And finally, what do you do in the meantime? Sit around and wait?

There's a difference between motorcycles and bikes, but I think what Eddy Merckx said when asked how to train, applies to both to a certain degree. He said simply: "Ride, lots."

[OutlawsJustice]

FJ12Ryder

It is practical, just like going to school, you go to high school, you go to college, how do you know that those people teaching you really know anything? Well you have to belive and trust (At least to some degree) that they have taken the necessary training and have the necessary credentials to do what they are doing. You can also listen to those who have gone before. And if all that fails, do yourself a favor and watch those you ride with who have looked to the advice or training, did it help them? many of my students come because they have seen the improvements of the guys who could not keep up before and are now leading the groups.

I can assure you I am not the best rider in the world, if I was I would be out on the track with Rossi or hitting the Course with Smith in the dirt. I am not that good, but I (Like those I work with and those I help to train to do what I do) I know how to watch others, I know what I am looking for and I know how to help them get better. Just like Tiger Woods has a golf coach,

One of my past students and now fellow instructors just took a second place finish and two first place finishes at the opening weekend of races in Georgia aboard his Ducati (Big twins expert). I cant do that but I know what I did (And he will tell you the same) helped him to achieve this.

There are people all over this great country and this entire planet who train riders at all levels, and just because someone has been riding for 30 years does not mean they are as good as they think they are either. There is always someone better and more that we each can learn. So every chance I get to learn from others, I take. and I ride all types of bikes from MX to adventure to street, touring and Sport. I spend time with coaches on the track, in the dirst and anything else I can get, because if I am not trying to improve and getting that watchful eye of those better than me, I have no idea if I am doing it right or wrong. I will say I am very lucky! I get to work with people Like Lee Parks on a regular basis and I get to work with many great instructors that you may never have heard of. In the end it helps each of us who do teach to not only ride better, but to be able to walk into a group of riders and be able to help everyone.

Those people who can help are out there, YOU have to look for them and realize YOU can get better.

[FJ12Ryder]

"Practice is good if you are doing it right and the only way to know that is to have someone who knows watch you." "Practice is no good if you do not practice it correctly, Practice does NOT make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. Breaking bad habits is hard, so it is easier to learn it right the first time."

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong but to me these statements say don't just go out and ride, all you'll do is develop bad habits. If my friends and I had to wait to find someone with the proper skills to teach us

how to ride well without picking up bad habits, then I would have wasted a lot of years not riding. I've developed bad habits, but I've had a great time too.

Learning how to have better control of the bike, learning where and how to look, learning how to brake hard and safely, etc. are great and if you have access to the people/schools that teach them that's even better.

But if you don't then you just have to ride, and not pay any attention to that Harley guy who says his been riding for 20 years and never uses his front brake, a helmet will just break your neck in a crash, and in an

emergency just lay 'er down.

If we ever meet I'll be glad to listen to advice, and try to correct my bad habits.

[Switchblade]

I get it and I'm glad there's people out there like David(www.nationalridertraining.com) who are sincere about teaching the skills to ride,control and stop a motorcycle.

[OutlawsJustice]

Thanks, I came to this thread to help, The O.P. asked for assistance and advice, I gave some based on what I know and have learned and based on what I know works based on training, and experiance. FJ12Ryder, I did not come here to argue, but to help the O.P. so lets try to keep this on topic. You can take advice and learn from whom ever you wish, If you have better advice for the O.P. please ad the tips and advice that answer his questions.

[CornerCarver]

"Practice is good if you are doing it right and the only way to know that is to have someone who knows watch you." "Practice is no good if you do not practice it correctly, Practice does NOT make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. Breaking bad habits is hard, so it is easier to learn it right the first time."

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong but to me these statements say don't just go out and ride, all you'll do is develop bad habits. If my friends and I had to wait to find someone with the proper skills to teach us

how to ride well without picking up bad habits, then I would have wasted a lot of years not riding. I've developed bad habits, but I've had a great time too.

Learning how to have better control of the bike, learning where and how to look, learning how to brake hard and safely, etc. are great and if you have access to the people/schools that teach them that's even better.

But if you don't then you just have to ride, and not pay any attention to that Harley guy who says his been riding for 20 years and never uses his front brake, a helmet will just break your neck in a crash, and in an

emergency just lay 'er down.

If we ever meet I'll be glad to listen to advice, and try to correct my bad habits.

It is possible that you are reading it wrong. It is also possible that, like the majority of motorcycle riders, you may think that it is not worth the time, effort nor money to "find someone with the proper skills to teach us."

If you have an aftermarket seat on your bike, you can afford to attend a class. Any money spent on improving the largest variable in the motorcycle+rider equation is money better spent than on multiple bikes or upgrades/farkles to any bike.

As I said in the Lee Parks Total Control Nashville class thread, if you want to be a safer or faster rider on the street then this class is a must. I wish they had it 20 years ago.

[keef]

I had a fairly big crash about 5 years ago, and it took a while to get my mojo back. I was back on the bike about 2 months after breaking all 3 bones in my right leg.

What really helped me was doing a California super bike school (even though it was in sydney). Helped me relearn body positioning ( my leg works a little differently now) and reinforce the good habits i had forgotten, even though i had been riding for about 15 years, rain hail or shine. Even though it was a track class, it very definitely applies to the road.

Like some of the other guys have said, go and do a class, and then practice what they have taught, even after the class is over.

Like getting a car licence. If you have lessons with a professional instructor, you learn the right way, and you practice those skills, not just learning your mum's/dad's/mates bad habits. Why do people think learning to ride a bike is any different?

One of the problems with only going off what you read on the internet is that some people are very good riders, but can't teach for shit. Other people are poor riders, but can talk a good game. If there are any tradesmen out there, i'm sure that you have all worked with someone who is great in their trade, but can't pass that knowledge on to an apprentice if their life depended on it.

Going to a respected motorcycle school in your area, either track or road is your best bet. Once you have that kind of practical experience, all the back and forth in threads like this will make more sense, and it will be easier to pick through the rubbish to find the gems.

[Duc2V4]

I agree with CC, if you can afford farkles, especially the common ones us VFR riders purchase, i.e. Power Commander, Sargent/Corbin seat, luggage, you should be able to afford a rider course. I have been riding since I was 16 (now 48) and although I can say I was not a terrible rider, I have become a better rider since I have taken rider courses (CA Superbike School and Total Control). I took the CSBS back in the 90's and the TC class last year. Amazing some of the things we forget or get "sloppy" doing if we don't practice the good habits. I must say that the TC Class was well worth the $ and help me lose some bad habits I gained in those "in-between" years.

[JETS]

Thanks guys. I've done a lot of practise braking on my bike already - all straight stuff though. At both low and high speeds. And you're right - you can easilly get the back wheel in the air even with the linked braking. :)

I was taught never go faster than you're willing to emergency brake - so braking was the first thing I practised.

Gee - I've got more than I bargened for out of my original post wanting to know whether or not it's OK for me to use the bike leaning and not just myself - but it's all good stuff to think about. :)

As for a twist of the wrist, I've read the first book and wasn't really impressed. Seems that most of the writing was race track related. From what I gathered, the lines in that book would help to kill me on the open road. The last place I want to be on a blind corner at the apex is right at the centre of the road. The message I kept getting from the book was how to improve my track time and get through corners quicker, not how to take the corner safer. I'm sure that it's a good book if I want to get into track racing, but I'm just not interested in that sort of riding.

One book I have come across that I liked a lot was Motorcycle Roadcraft. That was more about surviving the roads with the additional hazards that we face on a daily basis, and IMO had much better cornering lines for the open road. Before I order Total Control, is that more like 'A twist of the wrist' or is it more suitable for what I'm looking into?

Twist of the Wrist's best part is the enumerating and explaining of the survival reactions that await one if not anticipated and countered with proper training and practice. I like Nick Ienatch and his book, too, the author of "The Pace" years ago, and the recently published update. Lee Parks did a good job on his course and has good photos that demonstrate well.

I can say from personal, regrettable experience that hitting the rear brake in an urgency is most likely to result in over-use and a rear slide that ends in a highside. Standing the bike up a bit and braking with the front can slow you to a safe cornering speed in microseconds and allows re-leaning the bike to complete the turn or avoid an object. Recall that the front brake use lightens the rear and leaves little retarding force at your disposal.

Track days and their lessons are hugely useful in learning to perfect good riding control and will enhance just exactly what you say you want out of your road riding. I vouch for it personally.

Good riding in Oz!

[adamv]

Good stuff - thanks all for the continued feedback. In regards to "The Pace" - is this article pretty much it, or is this a summarised version of a more detailed article that I've missed somwhere: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/

[wera803]

The other thing I've been told is that my bike's not insured when on the track, and I'd hate to come off on the track and do thousands of dollars of damage to my bike and not be able to get it repaired or ride again. I've heard of riders getting taken out by other riders on the track being silly too.

Check with your insurance company. I know State Farm has covered bikes on the track in the past as long as it isn't a timed event (actual race) because they consider it a rider improvement course (have control riders) which most of them do.

As far as leathers, some organizations rent them to you for the day, or watch the classifieds, Craigslist, etc. for a used set. You don't have to spend a grand on them unless you want/need custom made ones.

[Duc2V4]

Good stuff - thanks all for the continued feedback. In regards to "The Pace" - is this article pretty much it, or is this a summarised version of a more detailed article that I've missed somwhere: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/

Yes and no, as mentioned in a post above, there was an update to the first 'The Pace'... http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/09/16/become-a-better-street-rider-with-the-pace-motorcycle-safety-and-riding-skills/

[RoystonRocket2]

Adam, with regard to my emboldened bit above in your post; in the corner you speak of, you should have entered it at a lower speed because you cannot see through it, therefore if a hazard appears whilst you are in the corner, your reduced speed allows you to brake, reduce the bikes' turn radius, stand the bike up and stop. It's never fun going slower into a corner you know you can take quicker just because you can't see through it, but imagine if a threat did actually appear....it's the way I tend to ride these tighter bends, especially as it has happened to me. I just thanked the Lord that I had used the technique and not gone as fast as the corner would allow

Thanks. That's what I've been lead to understand, and I do take these corners slower - but regardless of the speed, there is still a need to brake if a hazard appears in these corners. As such, am I correct in assuming then that there should be two different techniques as to where to place the feet on a corner:

1) I should only be on the balls of my feet if I can see through the corner and see it's safe before entering the corner, and

2) For all other corners (ie, where I can't see) - I shouldn't be on the balls of my feet, but rather have the brake covered for possible hazards?

I think that makes sense. I was reading previous posts as apply this technique to all corners - but after your post see that different corners may require different foot positions?

I also feel anybody that rides should do a few track days, some feel it has no relevance to street riding but there wrong, there is no safer place to hone your skills & find your limits & the limits of the bike & then use that knowledge that on the street those limits should be decreased big time to add safety for reaction time for the ever present shit happens scenario.

I would love to do a track day, however there are a few hurdles. Firstly as I'm aware I require full leathers - not just my normal armour - which I don't have, and have been told will cost me close to a grand to get. The other thing I've been told is that my bike's not insured when on the track, and I'd hate to come off on the track and do thousands of dollars of damage to my bike and not be able to get it repaired or ride again. I've heard of riders getting taken out by other riders on the track being silly too.

All the track days I've been on allow a decent set of 2-piece textiles and don't insist on leathers. Indeed, modern textiles are actually more abrasion-resistant than leather, apparently!

I understand the point re ball of the foot in-corner, and I think that if you are deliberately pushing the bike (track day) then it is appropriate but to my mind (and it is only my opinion) for 90%+ of road riding, you don't need that feel and the ability to brake for a threat is of higher importance. If you are sure there are no threats, then foot positioning is up to you.

All JMHO.

It's two piece leathers with minimum 3/4 zip together or full leathers for UK track days. I assume they were Hopp training type track days that allow textiles? Leather is still best, I don't think anyone races in textiles.

Interesting thread, TBH I haven't read it thoroughly but I would add, as already mentioned, there is a lot that can be taken from track riding / racing that is relevant to road riding. Grip levels and feel are chief among them. Also, as much as I completely agree with comments about positioning and avoiding braking in bends and so on it is also quite possible to brake into a bend or in a bend if you have to. In general what's been said in this thread is correct but I don't think someone who is asking the questions that are being asked should be given the impression that an experienced rider would never brake in a bend because on occasion they might.

[Skids]

It's two piece leathers with minimum 3/4 zip together or full leathers for UK track days. I assume they were Hopp training type track days that allow textiles? Leather is still best, I don't think anyone races in textiles.

Martin, have a chat with Rob (Plumbline). New textiles are very, very good at abrasion resistance.

There are other track days that allow textiles too, not just Hopp.

[RoystonRocket2]

It's two piece leathers with minimum 3/4 zip together or full leathers for UK track days. I assume they were Hopp training type track days that allow textiles? Leather is still best, I don't think anyone races in textiles.

Martin, have a chat with Rob (Plumbline). New textiles are very, very good at abrasion resistance.

There are other track days that allow textiles too, not just Hopp.

At risk of hijacking the thread I agree textiles are much improved and I'm sure there are all sorts of man made fibres that are used in very good textile suits these days, but I'm still not aware of anyone racing in anything other than standard or kangaroo leathers.

From the websites of the leading two TDO's in the UK;

MSV,

All leathers must be either a one piece or two-piece suit with a zip all the way around the middle (a minimum of 3/4 of the way around) with no skin or undergarments visible when your arms are fully raised. Leather boots and gloves must also be worn. We recommend that all riders also wear additional back protection. Metal knee and/or toe sliders are not allowed. For the avoidance of doubt, textile equipment is not permitted on trackday events

Nolimits,

A full leather 1-piece race suit or a fully zipped together 2-piece. The zip must encircle your torso, and there should be no gap bewteen the jacket and the trousers when the zip is done up

Sorry mate, no textiles yet at proper track days or races.

[Skids]

As I said, there are others.

Rob is the expert, not me. Ask him.