Cornering, Lean Angle & Getting Off Your Bike

[CornerCarver]

If you think Total Control is a quality read you should experience the class with live instructors and room to practice...

[MaxSwell]

I believe I watched Keith Code's class on youtube. If you cannot get to a class live the video is quite informative. I hope it's still there.

[Dedofnite]

Wow!

Great thread you guys. Good advice, Tanner. I have watched this site for about 3 years at various times and only recently became a member, but have been very impressed with the community here. There must be thousands of years of cumulative experience among us, so Adam, you're in the right place!

Having learned to ride in Germany during the early Honda/Yamaha/MV wars, and after weekends spent at the Nurburgring watching the guys like Hailwood, Reed, and Agostini battling it out on really bad tires and suspensions while Honda and Yamaha poured money into bike development, I was inspired to learn how to ride like them. (a few years later I changed the name to Roberts!) Like many riders on this site, it was trial and error, and the errors hurt, but we survived. It was 30 years later after I thought I was pretty good at riding street, dirt, and track that I took the beginner street class because I wanted to be an instructor. That's when I realized how little I knew about controlling a motorcycle. I began a whole new learning curve at that point, and I taught street and dirt bike classes for about 10 years. I found that just learning the basics improved all of my riding 100%.

Adam, it sounds like you had some previous experience, maybe on dirt. Hopefully you have had a chance to take a street bike course to learn the basics correctly. If not, do so right away. It will give you the tools you need to practice the correct techniques for controlling a motorcycle. Some people learn it on a bicycle and have a natural talent for being on two wheels. Most don't, and if you are practicing the wrong things, you are getting worse instead of better. Much of the information you need has already been mentioned on this thread, and everyone is pretty spot on with their tips. It sounds to me like you are being confused by information overload!!! I would recommend going back to the basics, and don't get so ahead of yourself that you are trying to do things at an expert or racing level, (some racers can't ride a street bike very well, by the way), and focus on the simple techniques of riding a two wheeled vehicle. It's not the same as any other vehicle, car, boat, airplane...etc.

A motorcycle has to do one thing to turn : LEAN. It's not the tires, suspension, metal, plastic, or rubber that does the work. It's you. The motorcycle just obeys the laws of physics, you are the one who tells it when and how fast or slow it does that. The more confident you are that you have the basic skills to do that, (basic, not expert), the more you can relax and focus on what the motorcycle is doing under you and what is going on around you, like looking through turns. These things have been mentioned by the others in the thread, but I think there is too much information at different levels. The only way to learn to ride, is to ride. But if you're trying to incorporate all these different levels of skill at one time you will not have enough attention left in your brain to stay safe, hence the confusion about rear brake/front brake.

First: Posture. Learn the correct posture you need to control your motorcycle safely and efficiently. Then practice it until it is natural when you are on the bike.

Second: Counter steering. Basic physics, the way you make a two wheeled vehicle lean initially. If you do not know that procedure and practice it correctly, you will never have the confidence to be sure the bike it going to go where you want it to. I am constantly surprised by the answers I get when I ask riders the simple question, "how do you make the motorcycle lean?" Many do not know! And just knowing the words does not count.

Third: Practice the basics until they are almost automatic. Then practice correctly every time you ride. You will feel so much more relaxed on the bike and you won't be asking questions like, "should my toes be dragging?" (no disrespect to Hailwood, but on modern tires and suspension that's a bad habit you need to break or you will never have confidence in your tires. And it wears out a lot of boots!) Trail braking is another bad technique for beginning riders, it prevents you from learning throttle control.

Just my observations from teaching a lot of folks how to ride over the years. Not much that has been said on this thread is wrong, some is just not at the level you are in your skills and comfort on the bike yet. Get a dirt bike, is another way to improve your bike control skills. When you have the basics down, it all changes for the better.

Forget trying to learn all the "buzzwords" for now just practice being comfortable and confident in you ability to control the bike. And practice on a smaller one if you have to. It works!!

Good luck to you in your quest. Hope to see you on road some time!

Kevin

[adamv]

Thanks all. There is a wealth of knowledge here and I really appreciate everyone taking the time out to post and respond to my questions. I really appreciate it. Thanks heaps.

Adam, it sounds like you had some previous experience, maybe on dirt.

OK, now I'm officially impressed. yes, dirt bikes for around 30 years now although I have no idea how you picked that up. :-)

I did a road bike couse when I got my actual license a number of years ago now, which taught me things like counter steering. (Seemed like black magic at the time LOL), but it works. I know there's a wealth of knowledge out there in various books. I understand to go faster, I need to get off the bike more, etc - my question was more along the lines of 'what if I don't want to go faster and I'm just enjoying the bike leaning'. I guess it's hard for people to understand my question because it's probably a wierd one. Most people are probably wanting to perfect the apex, get through the corner as quick as possible, etc. Maybe that's why 'A twist of the wrist' is so popular amongst my friends, but didn't interest me that much. ;-) I was more interested in learning how to ride and live on the road, not be a race track rider.

Work on throttle control - understood - thanks! Last few times I've been up the mountain i was trying to use the brake as little as possible (in many occasions I didn't need to apply it at all) and rather use throttle control so I guess I've been on the right track there. Good to know because I really enjoyed that. Obviously doing this I wasn't coming into corners too fast (or I'd be toast :) ) nor was I accelerating hard out of them. Other mates seem to love the 'rush' or race track experience. I - I guess I must be the odd ball. I preferred enjoying manouvering the bike underneat me than just 'max speed'. Maybe that's why I got the VFR instead of the CBR and other club racers like them. 8)

I guess I question a lot. I dont' want to just be told why - I want to understand, and when I seem to get conflicting information I'm open to the fact that neither may be wrong - but that I may be misunderstanding it's application - hence me digging in deeper trying to understand.

Once again, thanks to everyone who has responded. I believe I've got a better understanding now. Even though I enjoy the lean angle so much - I realise that it's not the safest way to ride, but likewise I don't need to go race mode and get off the bike, etc. There's a happy medium and that's what I should be aiming for.

Looks like I better go put in an order for Total Control. I thought about buying the e-version but there's only like $3 difference in the price, so I'll go the hard cover - just means I'll have to wait until it arrives.

Thanks all - have a great weekend!

[Skids]

Was perusing this thread and planning to post about positioning prior to tip-in for the corner to obtain a view through as far as possible and then someone goes and mentions it, but hey, I shan't let that stop me....

Positioning prior to a bend is essential. The mantra taught over here is "be able to stop, in the distance you can see to be clear, on your side of the road". That should mean you don't need to cover any brakes in a turn as you've already confirmed there are no hazards (or potential hazards, like an empty junction). If there are any hazards, potetnial or not, then you should be reducing entry speed to cope with it, should it occur. If the bend (l/h in UK & Down Under) is tight, do not stray towards the centreline as someone you cannot see through the bend may be about to apex the corner and take you out. On R/H bends, move towards the kerb but I try to avoid getting too close as there are drains & loose stones there invariably.

Thereafter, once braking is completed, a rolling neutral onto positive throttle through the bend once you can see your exit will ensure the bike remains stable for the exit.

Do you use the "Vanishing Point" technique? Can be useful too if you like to make progress.

As has been said, practice makes perfect.

[marriedman]

Marriedman, good comment, but you also need to take into consideration we are talking about the street, where we are not using all of our traction and also have to factor in trail braking.

To be honest, I have never been on a track. So I can only speak from what I have read. I agree that the track and the street are very different. The track should be clean of oil, coolant, dirt, cigarette butts, litter, etc... Also traffic is always for the same direction as you (i.e. no oncoming traffic). A controlled environment. Not every turn or corner out on the street is going to have these things in them, but you never know which one will. So I still believe that on the street, all braking should be done before initiating lean.

Also, on the issue of trail braking - lack of experience here talking - can you even do that on the 98-09 VFR's with the linked brakes? I only remember using trail braking on my CB750 during parking lot maneuvers. I will be the first to admit that I am not a "fast" rider, so I have never felt the need to use it in a corner.

What happens when we are doing everything else right and need to use the brakes to change direction, or avoid something or someone. Being on the balls of the feet is important, and being able to use the brakes properly is as well. The Good body position is one more way to increase the amount of traction we have in reserve in case one of the other factors changes and we need to use up some of that traction for another reason.

Won't hear an argument from me on any of this! If you have to use your brakes to change direction or for avoidance, you will have to stop countersteering to allow the bike to come back up while applying both brakes. This is what I was told in my MSF course and also reinforced by the retired instructors in the local motorcycle club.

I agree that having the body further into the lean allows the bike to remain more upright thus having a greater contact patch, i.e. better traction. Actually read that in the book I linked to.

I think we are saying the same thing, I was just too brief and you expanded on it.

[apexandy]

Good stuff in here. Only thing I would comment on is that although trail braking isn't a good thing to do at every corner on the street (setting your speed before the corner is definitely the safest and smartest way to ride on the street) it is a really good tool to have in your arsenal when it is needed. I believe as riders we need to train ourselves to react appropriately when emergencies arise (animal in the middle of the road, lumber that fell off a vehicle…) and braking into and through a corner may mean the difference between avoiding an accident and having one. Also, the bike handles differently while on the brakes and is another thing we need to get used to as riders. I am talking almost exclusively about front brakes… hard braking on a sport bike really lightens the rear and makes it's use dangerous while cornering.

I believe it was Freddie Spencer at a track school who used to demonstrate (on a VFR) entering a corner with his knee down and braking so hard through the corner he could stop upright at the apex. Obviously this requires amazing skill and ability to balance braking with cornering grip but it demonstrates what is possible on a motorcycle.

[OutlawsJustice]

Marriedman, good comment, but you also need to take into consideration we are talking about the street, where we are not using all of our traction and also have to factor in trail braking.

To be honest, I have never been on a track. So I can only speak from what I have read. I agree that the track and the street are very different. The track should be clean of oil, coolant, dirt, cigarette butts, litter, etc... Also traffic is always for the same direction as you (i.e. no oncoming traffic). A controlled environment. Not every turn or corner out on the street is going to have these things in them, but you never know which one will. So I still believe that on the street, all braking should be done before initiating lean.

Also, on the issue of trail braking - lack of experience here talking - can you even do that on the 98-09 VFR's with the linked brakes? I only remember using trail braking on my CB750 during parking lot maneuvers. I will be the first to admit that I am not a "fast" rider, so I have never felt the need to use it in a corner.

What happens when we are doing everything else right and need to use the brakes to change direction, or avoid something or someone. Being on the balls of the feet is important, and being able to use the brakes properly is as well. The Good body position is one more way to increase the amount of traction we have in reserve in case one of the other factors changes and we need to use up some of that traction for another reason.

Won't hear an argument from me on any of this! If you have to use your brakes to change direction or for avoidance, you will have to stop countersteering to allow the bike to come back up while applying both brakes. This is what I was told in my MSF course and also reinforced by the retired instructors in the local motorcycle club.

I agree that having the body further into the lean allows the bike to remain more upright thus having a greater contact patch, i.e. better traction. Actually read that in the book I linked to.

I think we are saying the same thing, I was just too brief and you expanded on it.

You first have to understand actual trail braking, it is not about using the rear brake, it is about trailing off the brakes and onto the throttle to keep the bike settled and not upsetting the suspension. The Throttle and brakes have opposite impacts on the suspension

As for braking in a turn, to avoid a hazard, this is not the same as what you may have learned from the MSF, there are a lot of other forces in play here. In a turn you can use the brakes to actually tighten your line, you can also use the throttle to tighten your line. It works both ways, this comes down to the forces involved and how you are using the brakes and throttle. This is all part of the classes I teach and we actually explain it all there and make the students actually try it and practice each way so they actually know and undestand what can actually be done not just the "Basics" you learn in an MSF Program (I teach those as well)

[adamv]

Thanks again to everyone for your replies. I have been working on using the vanishing point technique - thanks.

Positioning prior to a bend is essential. The mantra taught over here is "be able to stop, in the distance you can see to be clear, on your side of the road". That should mean you don't need to cover any brakes in a turn as you've already confirmed there are no hazards (or potential hazards, like an empty junction). If there are any hazards, potetnial or not, then you should be reducing entry speed to cope with it, should it occur.

The question I have about this is that this doesn't seem practical in all instances. I can understand (and agree) completely for most 'general corners' - maybe 90% of my riding, but not in some others. For instance, when I go over the mountains, there are a number of corners that I approach that I would consider 'blind' corners. ie - I can't see the exit to the corner until I've already entered and started the turn. As such, a hazard may appear after I'm already leaning. (This also doesn't exclude introduced hazards such as a deer running out).

In these situations it's my understanding that I'm going to need to be prepared to brake after I've started committing to the corner. If I'm holding out wide whilst going into the corner until I can see past the apex - then this doesn't leave me much room to stand the bike up and break (without either going over the line, or over the edge) if it's one of these blind corners.

As I currently understand it (with my limited knowledge), applying the back brake lightly will increase my lean angle, and also slow me down. Applying it harder will cause me to lowside. Not good - but if anything would be better than highsiding - so while I understand it's not ideal to rear brake in a corner, it seems it's far better than continuing on and hitting an object on a leaned angle at speed, which is why I'm still struggling with the blanket mentality of some posts that you should never need to touch your brake once you've started a corner. (Or are, such as in my example exceptions to this rule)?

Sorry for being so thick. I just want to make sure I have a good understanding of what you're trying to explain here. :)

[FJ12Ryder]

One thing to remember: if you use the rear brake too exuberantly and the tire starts to slide, the novice's immediate reaction is to let off the brake which can result in a highside, which is much worse than a lowside.

You definitely don't want to brake in a corner, but sometimes you have to. Smoooooth is the key word in all things motorcycle. IMO anyway.

Generally speaking most of the time I don't ride on the balls of my feet. Too many years of using both brakes I guess. I ride with my instep on the pegs, mostly, with feet pointing straight ahead.

I'm old and conservative, so sue me. However I have ridden that way when the road turns twisty enough. It does give you more control and makes moving around a bit easier.

[adamv]

One thing to remember: if you use the rear brake too exuberantly and the tire starts to slide, the novice's immediate reaction is to let off the brake which can result in a highside, which is much worse than a lowside.

Very good point to consider! I've always been used to having both brakes covered myself (maybe that's to do with my dirt riding, I don't know). I'm happy to go more conservatively. As I understand it, whilst cornering front brake will cause highside, rear low side, if I do them smoothly and both together I shouldn't do either - but that sounds like something worth playing around and putting to the test in a controlled environment on something not as precious as my VFR. :-)

[thtanner]

Just a note your VFR most likely has linked brakes. You will want to take this into account (but it really helps more than hurts in my experience).

[VFR4Lee]

As I understand it, whilst cornering front brake will cause highside, rear low side,

Using the front brake too hard for the available traction will lock the wheel.

While turning you have less traction available, you're using some to turn.

Anyway, lock the front while turning it will turn some more and "tuck', and you low side.

Lock the rear and you can low side as well.

If you lock the rear and it slides sideways, then you let off and the tire grabs, that is 1 way to high side.

[Dedofnite]

One more comment from the peanut gallery: Linked brakes. I have the same system on the Blackbird. First one was a 97 and I immediately planned to delete the linked system and put on braided steel lines. There were even some companies that made kits to eliminate LBS. After riding the bike for a while I realized that Honda really got this right. For a street bike application the LBS really works well. Emergency stop, high speed braking, braking while leaned over - you squeeze the brake, the bike squats down on the suspension and just stops! No drama, just nice controlled braking. I like it a lot. (I was just sad that I couldn't brake slide into parking spaces anymore )

Adam, at the level you said you are working on right now, smooth and safe street riding, I don't think you should be worried about the front/rear, highside/lowside, too much/ too little debate. Just your confusion about what causes each most of the time, ( thanks for the clarification Lee!), tells me you have much more immediate skills and mechanics to understand for now. Again, too much expert level/racing type info for right now. With that LBS working on the VFR, you really have to do something stupid to cause an imbalanced braking event like this. Really. Don't use so much attention on that. Your bike is way better than you think in that respect. I think these guys will agree. You seem to be making more confusion for yourself here. When you are more comfortable with your normal street riding skills, go take a class like the one Outlaw teaches, but not until you have some clearer understanding of how your bike works in a normal street environment. Safety on a bike is just being aware of how your bike works and having excellent situational awareness, as Tanner said. And practice what you know. Do braking and cornering in a big parking lot until you can make that bike do exactly what you want, when you want it, AT YOUR STREET RIDING LEVEL. Then move on to the next level.

The linked braking system works. Relax.

Kevin

[CornerCarver]

With LBS you can and should still trail brake. Notice the brake light below on this drill.

With LBS you can even brake well enough to loft the rear wheel.

[soloii]

Here is one of my favorite rider improvement references:

http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Vol-High-Performance-Motorcycle/dp/0965045021/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1ABMZ29R47YKC0SPD2YZ

Keith Code's video of the same title is a good memory refresh.

One of these days I would really like to take the California Superbike School at VIR or Barber.

Total Control is also a very good rider improvement reference, as was mentioned in one of the earlier postings.

Good luck.

[slo1]

Good stuff in here. Only thing I would comment on is that although trail braking isn't a good thing to do at every corner on the street (setting your speed before the corner is definitely the safest and smartest way to ride on the street) it is a really good tool to have in your arsenal when it is needed. I believe as riders we need to train ourselves to react appropriately when emergencies arise (animal in the middle of the road, lumber that fell off a vehicle…) and braking into and through a corner may mean the difference between avoiding an accident and having one.

I believe it was Freddie Spencer at a track school who used to demonstrate (on a VFR) entering a corner with his knee down and braking so hard through the corner he could stop upright at the apex. Obviously this requires amazing skill and ability to balance braking with cornering grip but it demonstrates what is possible on a motorcycle.

People went to Freddie's school because of Freddie, but returned because of Nick and the crew. THE best book on Sport Riding imho;

https://www.bullpublishing.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=28

And the school lives on; https://ridelikeachampion.com/

[adamv]

Thanks guys. I've done a lot of practise braking on my bike already - all straight stuff though. At both low and high speeds. And you're right - you can easilly get the back wheel in the air even with the linked braking. :)

I was taught never go faster than you're willing to emergency brake - so braking was the first thing I practised.

Gee - I've got more than I bargened for out of my original post wanting to know whether or not it's OK for me to use the bike leaning and not just myself - but it's all good stuff to think about. :)

As for a twist of the wrist, I've read the first book and wasn't really impressed. Seems that most of the writing was race track related. From what I gathered, the lines in that book would help to kill me on the open road. The last place I want to be on a blind corner at the apex is right at the centre of the road. The message I kept getting from the book was how to improve my track time and get through corners quicker, not how to take the corner safer. I'm sure that it's a good book if I want to get into track racing, but I'm just not interested in that sort of riding.

One book I have come across that I liked a lot was Motorcycle Roadcraft. That was more about surviving the roads with the additional hazards that we face on a daily basis, and IMO had much better cornering lines for the open road. Before I order Total Control, is that more like 'A twist of the wrist' or is it more suitable for what I'm looking into?

[Skids]

Thanks again to everyone for your replies. I have been working on using the vanishing point technique - thanks.

Positioning prior to a bend is essential. The mantra taught over here is "be able to stop, in the distance you can see to be clear, on your side of the road". That should mean you don't need to cover any brakes in a turn as you've already confirmed there are no hazards (or potential hazards, like an empty junction). If there are any hazards, potetnial or not, then you should be reducing entry speed to cope with it, should it occur.

The question I have about this is that this doesn't seem practical in all instances. I can understand (and agree) completely for most 'general corners' - maybe 90% of my riding, but not in some others. For instance, when I go over the mountains, there are a number of corners that I approach that I would consider 'blind' corners. ie - I can't see the exit to the corner until I've already entered and started the turn. As such, a hazard may appear after I'm already leaning. (This also doesn't exclude introduced hazards such as a deer running out).

In these situations it's my understanding that I'm going to need to be prepared to brake after I've started committing to the corner. If I'm holding out wide whilst going into the corner until I can see past the apex - then this doesn't leave me much room to stand the bike up and break (without either going over the line, or over the edge) if it's one of these blind corners.

As I currently understand it (with my limited knowledge), applying the back brake lightly will increase my lean angle, and also slow me down. Applying it harder will cause me to lowside. Not good - but if anything would be better than highsiding - so while I understand it's not ideal to rear brake in a corner, it seems it's far better than continuing on and hitting an object on a leaned angle at speed, which is why I'm still struggling with the blanket mentality of some posts that you should never need to touch your brake once you've started a corner. (Or are, such as in my example exceptions to this rule)?

Sorry for being so thick. I just want to make sure I have a good understanding of what you're trying to explain here. :)

Adam, with regard to my emboldened bit above in your post; in the corner you speak of, you should have entered it at a lower speed because you cannot see through it, therefore if a hazard appears whilst you are in the corner, your reduced speed allows you to brake, reduce the bikes' turn radius, stand the bike up and stop. It's never fun going slower into a corner you know you can take quicker just because you can't see through it, but imagine if a threat did actually appear....it's the way I tend to ride these tighter bends, especially as it has happened to me. I just thanked the Lord that I had used the technique and not gone as fast as the corner would allow.

I liked Dedofnites' post above.....don't overthink it, linked brakes are a real world benefit to the overwhelming majority of us, be smooth and position yourself to get the best view through a corner that you can and always ride with the ability to stop, in the distance you can see to be clear, on your side of the road.

Safe riding.

[zRoYz]

I haven't bothered to read whole thread just some parts & this might have already been mentioned but trail braking is a term used for continued braking into a corner which can be front, rear or both brakes used. I tend to get the impression with what I have read that some feel it is only rear brake, it is used to enter corner quicker due to the benefits of later braking & pre loading the suspension especially front brake, it is a real art to get the timing correct & not getting it correct is shown very well watching racing when riders have front end slides though corners.

Riding advise isn't my thing I leave that up to the professionals because when learning new skills you need to know the basic structure to start from & all riders tend to change that to suit there individual way of doing things. Just use the top riders in the world as an example motogp, they have to adapt there riding style to different bikes, tyres & weather conditions. I have been riding along time & still every few years go do a basic rider training course because bad habits creep in when you think you know everything & I still learn things I had forgotten every time.

I also feel anybody that rides should do a few track days, some feel it has no relevance to street riding but there wrong, there is no safer place to hone your skills & find your limits & the limits of the bike & then use that knowledge that on the street those limits should be decreased big time to add safety for reaction time for the ever present shit happens scenario.

[adamv]

Adam, with regard to my emboldened bit above in your post; in the corner you speak of, you should have entered it at a lower speed because you cannot see through it, therefore if a hazard appears whilst you are in the corner, your reduced speed allows you to brake, reduce the bikes' turn radius, stand the bike up and stop. It's never fun going slower into a corner you know you can take quicker just because you can't see through it, but imagine if a threat did actually appear....it's the way I tend to ride these tighter bends, especially as it has happened to me. I just thanked the Lord that I had used the technique and not gone as fast as the corner would allow

Thanks. That's what I've been lead to understand, and I do take these corners slower - but regardless of the speed, there is still a need to brake if a hazard appears in these corners. As such, am I correct in assuming then that there should be two different techniques as to where to place the feet on a corner:

1) I should only be on the balls of my feet if I can see through the corner and see it's safe before entering the corner, and

2) For all other corners (ie, where I can't see) - I shouldn't be on the balls of my feet, but rather have the brake covered for possible hazards?

I think that makes sense. I was reading previous posts as apply this technique to all corners - but after your post see that different corners may require different foot positions?

I also feel anybody that rides should do a few track days, some feel it has no relevance to street riding but there wrong, there is no safer place to hone your skills & find your limits & the limits of the bike & then use that knowledge that on the street those limits should be decreased big time to add safety for reaction time for the ever present shit happens scenario.

I would love to do a track day, however there are a few hurdles. Firstly as I'm aware I require full leathers - not just my normal armour - which I don't have, and have been told will cost me close to a grand to get. The other thing I've been told is that my bike's not insured when on the track, and I'd hate to come off on the track and do thousands of dollars of damage to my bike and not be able to get it repaired or ride again. I've heard of riders getting taken out by other riders on the track being silly too.

[Skids]

Adam, with regard to my emboldened bit above in your post; in the corner you speak of, you should have entered it at a lower speed because you cannot see through it, therefore if a hazard appears whilst you are in the corner, your reduced speed allows you to brake, reduce the bikes' turn radius, stand the bike up and stop. It's never fun going slower into a corner you know you can take quicker just because you can't see through it, but imagine if a threat did actually appear....it's the way I tend to ride these tighter bends, especially as it has happened to me. I just thanked the Lord that I had used the technique and not gone as fast as the corner would allow

Thanks. That's what I've been lead to understand, and I do take these corners slower - but regardless of the speed, there is still a need to brake if a hazard appears in these corners. As such, am I correct in assuming then that there should be two different techniques as to where to place the feet on a corner:

1) I should only be on the balls of my feet if I can see through the corner and see it's safe before entering the corner, and

2) For all other corners (ie, where I can't see) - I shouldn't be on the balls of my feet, but rather have the brake covered for possible hazards?

I think that makes sense. I was reading previous posts as apply this technique to all corners - but after your post see that different corners may require different foot positions?

I also feel anybody that rides should do a few track days, some feel it has no relevance to street riding but there wrong, there is no safer place to hone your skills & find your limits & the limits of the bike & then use that knowledge that on the street those limits should be decreased big time to add safety for reaction time for the ever present shit happens scenario.

I would love to do a track day, however there are a few hurdles. Firstly as I'm aware I require full leathers - not just my normal armour - which I don't have, and have been told will cost me close to a grand to get. The other thing I've been told is that my bike's not insured when on the track, and I'd hate to come off on the track and do thousands of dollars of damage to my bike and not be able to get it repaired or ride again. I've heard of riders getting taken out by other riders on the track being silly too.

All the track days I've been on allow a decent set of 2-piece textiles and don't insist on leathers. Indeed, modern textiles are actually more abrasion-resistant than leather, apparently!

I understand the point re ball of the foot in-corner, and I think that if you are deliberately pushing the bike (track day) then it is appropriate but to my mind (and it is only my opinion) for 90%+ of road riding, you don't need that feel and the ability to brake for a threat is of higher importance. If you are sure there are no threats, then foot positioning is up to you.

All JMHO.

[VFR4Lee]

Has anyone mentioned "The Pace " by Nick Ienatsch?

An article not a book, but a good and useful one.

[Duc2V4]

Has anyone mentioned "The Pace " by Nick Ienatsch?

An article not a book, but a good and useful one.

Yes, the OP did in his first post.

[VFR4Lee]

Oh. Well, uh... Doh!