Cornering, Lean Angle & Getting Off Your Bike

[adamv]

Hi,

I have conflicting information which has left me a little confused. My end question is about road riding (not race track) and should I be allowing the bike to lean further over on my bike and letting the tires do all the work, and staying as straight 'ontop' of my bike as I can (resulting in an increased bike angle), or should I be getting off the bike more and leaving the bike more upright, or somewhere inbetween? The reason I ask this is as follows:

Only having my VFR for a couple of months now, I'm aware that I'm very new to the road bike scene and have a lot to learn. One thing I've been enjoying thoroughly is getting the bike over in the corners. I was surprised to find my boot scraping against the ground. Not at fast break neck speeds - but on slower tighter corners. What exhilleration. (OK, I'm probably penguine toed a little bit - so it's probably not that far over. As an indication, their is still about 1cm of 'chicken strips' on the tires).

Some riders that are riding with me have commented the reason I'm leaning over so much is because I'm not 'getting off the bike' in the corners, and that I'm letting the bike & tires do all the work. That sounds fair, however they have suggested that I shouldn't let the bike get over as far and I should be getting off more instead - like 'race bike riders' do as it's the "better" way to ride on the road as well as the track.

I just finished reading an article about 'PACE' (http://micapeak.com/info/thepace.html) which includes a principle opposite to what my friends have said: " Don't hang off in the corners or tuck in on the straights".

So - I'm left confused. From my point of view, I'm not interested in getting around the corner as fast as I can. I'm not interested in 'race track' riding. I'm more intrested in road craft rather than racing techniques, and enjoying the corner instead of getting through it as fast as possible. Lean angles is something I really enjoy, but I don't want to increase risk if that's what it's doing.

So I was wondering - what are the pro's and con's to both? Does letting the bike / tires do more of the work intruduce additional risks / reduce safety margins and I should be getting off the bike more, or is it OK just to enjoy the bike taking the corners at such an angle?

[VFRFahnder]

Read this:

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Performance-Street-Techniques/dp/0760314039

If you had to read one book about riding, this might be it.

"Hanging off" (done properly) allows you to keep the bike more upright at higher speeds.

It moves the center of gravity more to the inside of the turn, providing more traction.

[thtanner]

PACE is great. If you're going 100% safety oriented, follow it to a T. If you're going fast enough that you're hammering the brakes into the turns and having to lean off the bike to make the turn, then you're probably going too fast for the road. According to PACE.

That being said, I find a happy medium. I move my upper body into the turn, and will lean off too depending if it's a good canyon run, but I always leave spare room. If you're riding at 100% of your ability, you are unable to react to something unexpected. Do work on your foot position though. ;)

See my happy medium here...

[Duc2V4]

+1 On the Total Control read. The class is even more beneficial, although I don't think they are offered in OZ. With that, leaning off the bike into the turn, as mentioned above, allows the bike to be more upright providing two benefits, a bigger tire contact patch on the road and the ability for the suspension to work more like it should, leaned over and the frame becomes your "suspension" not the forks and shock.

[VFR4Lee]

I will move my butt to the inside of the seat at times.

No need to drag knee on the street.

[BrianF]

I will move my butt to the inside of the seat at times.

No need to drag knee on the street.

Same here, I usually hang a cheek off either way. At the least, lean your upper body (I put my shoulder in line with the mirror) into the corner and keep your backside where it is. No matter what, I keep my knees relatively tight to the tank. No need to attract unwanted attention.

Get on the balls of your feet and never ride 100% unless you're on someone else's bike at the track. Pretty easy.

[vfrAustin]

Ditto on riding on the balls of your feet. If your toes hit the pavement you are not riding with your heals up. See above picture. There is no one answer to how to ride A corner. Key is to have tools to work with. I tend to enter blind turns with a little more lean off the bike in case the turn tightens up on me I am in position already. Not good to change up position too much during the turn. IMO

[BusyLittleShop]

I think there's too much focus on getting off the bike or getting a
knee down and not enough on what a rider is doing and where they are
going...

I prefer a street corner style that positions my head and eyes up so I
may scan my path far enough ahead for trouble... here are my pointers
for smooth cornering...

1) I get my body comfortable to one side of the bike before the turn...
and comfortable means that I will not move it...

2) I clamp my outside knee into the dent of the tank and point my inside
knee out (not down)... also the balls of my feet rest at the end of the peg...

3) I adjust my entrance speed low enough so I'm able to start rolling on
throttle the instant I apply a counter steering input...

4) Once I begin to rolling on the throttle I *keep* rolling it on evenly and
smoothly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn...

5) My goal is not to go quick for quick sake... I want to establish 40/60
weight bias... I want to have my suspension working in the sweet
range... I want my bike to hold it's line... I want my bike stable as
possible so I will be smooth and not trigger my survival reaction to
chop the throttle...

MrRC45 Tahoe Sweeper



Whoa Mr.RC45

[adamv]

Thanks guys. In regards to the balls of your feet, how can you rear break if you have balls of feet on pegs.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk

[Mohawk]

Well all I can say is you should avoid doing all three of those at once ! You say you are quite new to this, so go to a race school if you want to learn to control your motorcycle properly, reading books does not work for many, it just creates confusion as you have admitted.

Boots dragging without your feet having the ball on the peg is easy to do, but the first thing to touch down if you are positioned properly will be the hero blobs under the foot peg. They are there to let you know you are almost out of tyre & bike lean angle. You don't want to hear them scrape before you reach an apex or you will run wide. Always remember to leave some grip in reserve for the unknown. It's easy on a race track, the tarmac is smooth, the corners the same, after a few laps you get used to them & then can go faster. On the road you never test a corner until you get there, even if you know it, dirt, wet, spillage etc can change it since the last time you rode it.

Regarding rear brake, if you need that in a corner then you got the corner wrong, all braking should be complete before you tip in on the road ! So you don't need the rear brake & thus your foot position is of no consequence other than for handling & you can steer a bike MUCH better from the balls of your feet !

[adamv]

Thanks for all the replies.

As for going to a school - I'd love to go to an advanced road craft school - but unfortunately there's nothing within hundreds of kilometers of where I live. As for race schools - I'm really not interested in racing techniques or race tracks. I can appreciate that a school will be much better, and if I get the opportunity one day I will take it up - but at present it's not an option which is why I thought I'd look for clarification on a forum. (At least it's interactive :) )

I must admit - I think I like the idea of 'a happy medium' as thtanner mentioned. I'll give using the upper body moving a go and see how that affects the riding the next opportunity I get. I'm getting the impression that whilst a greater lean angle is a whole lot of fun - it's not as safe - so I probably shouldn't be doing it. I can accept that.

Regarding the rear brake - am I correct then in assuming that your feet are then constantly changing positions on the pegs, from balls when in corners, to normal (so you can use the brake and gears) other times?

The reason I have my feet ready to brake is not to slow down in the corner (as you have mentioned, as I aim to slow down and be in the right gear well before the corner), but it's so that if I see something ahead as I'm going around the corner (a hazard) I have the option to break quickly. As I understand it - front brakes are not preferred in corners. (No breaking is, but I understand rear is preferred over front in an emergency whilst cornering)?

Thanks again for the advise.

[vfrAustin]

Correct, feet changing position. Try not to over think it all. Use the basics that you seem to understand and keep riding. Funny thing is you actually need to add in a little speed to practice these techniques. Ride your favorite turns that you know well and repeat repeat repeat. it all becomes second nature. I like to think I ride "briskly" on the road with the occasional fast. Fast and faster is track stuff. So just have fun.

[Switchblade]

I'll write it before the CC's bunch does THROTTLE THROTTLE it's all about the throttle . And as far as your feet, balls of your feet yeah that's good BUT you will soon be like me It's the toe's I'm way past the ball's of feet and I'm now to the toe's. I see riders all the time dont even lean off and there fast as he@# ..

[Scablifter]

Hi all,

new to this site, but not to riding.

I'll preface all this to say that, as a much younger man I had a relatively big off at a track doing just what young men tend to do. That is, ride aggressively, spend too long on the throttle, have a corner rush up too fast, brake hard, late and lock the bars with a death grip and a tense upper body while still trying to salvage the turn-in you missed as the apex slides away...

Older, and I hope a touch wiser, I'm at best a 7/10ths rider with a chicken strip that never gets narrower than my little finger.

I've always practised using a light drag followed by a decisive application of the rear brake just before the point of deepest turn-in where you can just start to see the exit point and are about to feed on the throttle ( of course this is dependent on the radius and arc length of the corner).

My take on it is this has a lot to do with the different rotational forces and inertias of all the components of a motorcycle. A dab of rear brake tensions the top of the chain causing the sprockets to rotate at the same angular velocity. This ensures that the rear wheel and gearbox components, and if holding a constant throttle, potentially the flywheel and other heavy, high rpm components are rotating in phase.

As a result, instead of cornering a vehicle that feels out of balance, with all sorts of internal rotational and centripetal forces competing against the other you get a settled, balanced bike that feels solid in the turn.

I'm sure we all remember our learner days when a corner rushes up too quick and you're quick to reach for that front brake lever and pull in the clutch. Take a trip down memory lane and try to take a corner with the clutch disengaged and coast through on momentum alone, that uncertainty you're feeling is as a result of the bike being mechanically out of phase.

I'm sure you'll all have different opinions on this technique, especially those with linked brakes, but I find it helps me feel in control and relaxed and as the rider is the major limiting factor on the cornering abilities of any bike, relaxed is good!

[OutlawsJustice]

Getting a knee down should NOT be the goal on the street, but GOOD body position should be. So what is GOOD body position? If you read the book "Total Control" you will have a lot better understanding, but without some hands on practice and someone to watch you to see if you are getting it right, you will not really know, and you could be doing more harm than good.

The Idea is two fold:

1. To move your center line INSIDE the bikes centerline, it also helps to bring your upper body forward and down when you do this (This can be achieved/helped by sliding your butt back against the hump. It is not necessary to move your butt off the seat in fact this can actually hinder your body position unless you are moving in ALOT. (It can cause you to be what we call crossed up and this hurts your body position, vision etc.)

2. Rotate your body into the turn. When you see people with a knee out, it is not for the purpose of dragging a knee, it is to help rotate the body more into the turn. this help and allows you to actually see better and look further thru the turn. It starts with the hips and follows with the shoulders and the head. Think of it as having your chest face the inside mirror. This rotation is helped a lot when your center line is inside the bikes centerline.

This all helps in several ways. It helps to bring the combined center of gravity down and inside, it helps to keep the front wheel loaded without over riding the brakes, and it really helps your vision and seeing farther through the turn, which helps with a lot of other things, including throttle and brakes once you learn how to use them properly. Now lets not forget that good body position also has the advantage of keeping the bike more upright, giving you more traction in reserve for anyone of many un-know things that might come up. If the turn becomes decreasing radius and you find yourself needing more lean angle, you need to apply more brakes or throttle to avoid a sudden obstacle, and any number of other things. Any time on the street that you push the bike under you, you are giving away the farm for no benefit.

As for being on the balls of the feet, YES. this allows you to get into body position and move back out of it after the turn without upsetting the bike. What about your brakes? Most of the braking should be done BEFORE the turn, trail braking? You can still do that and using the front brake is fine. there are many different techniques here and I am not starting a thread on trail braking, just want to get to the correct body position.

[marriedman]

On the issue of braking in a corner, you only have so much traction. You can use it for slowing down or sticking to the road.

Another book I like to read and recommend is Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well

http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guide-Riding/dp/1889540536

It's an older book, but still packed with great information.

[OutlawsJustice]

Marriedman, good comment, but you also need to take into consideration we are talking about the street, where we are not using all of our traction and also have to factor in trail braking. What happens when we are doing everything else right and need to use the brakes to change direction, or avoid something or someone. Being on the balls of the feet is important, and being able to use the brakes properly is as well. The Good body position is one more way to increase the amount of traction we have in reserve in case one of the other factors changes and we need to use up some of that traction for another reason.

[adamv]

Hi All,

Once again - thanks for all the detailed responses. Just so I can summarise what I've understood and make sure that we're all on the same page.

Firstly, just to restate - I'm talking about road riding, not track riding. Personally I don't care about going around a corner fast - I care about going around a corner fun. (But safe) I don't BLAT. (Brake late and turn), nor do I accelerate crazy out of a corner. I enjoy a tight corner. All the talk I've mentioned about breaking in a corner is not to reduce speed to that suitable for the corner (as that's done well before I get to the corner) - but being prepared for any unexpected hazards during the turn.

Having said that - this is what I've gleaned todate from what's being said. Please correct me if I've misunderstood:


1) I'm getting the message that the more the bike leans the worse it is. Even though I'm finding staying on top of the bike is fun because it gives an increased bike angle (thrill) even at lower speeds, it's also more dangerous because the bike is using more traction which reduces the amount of margin remaining and I shouldn't be doing it. I'd should use some of my body to compensate. Might be a little less thrilling not to be over as far, but it's safer?

2) Feet position. I need to work on my pigeon toes. While I do have large feet - I also need to learn how to move my feet to balls and then back again for breaking again whilst in a turn real quick?

3) Forget getting my butt off (and leg down) (at least at this stage). I should start by moving my shoulder / upper torso across to move my centreline inside the bikes, and my Centre of Gravity likewise. This should give me a happy medium for enjoyable road riding whilst still getting a bit of a lean without going over the top.

4) Consider trying a slight drag of the rear brake to feel the difference. (Per Scablifter's post).


Remember - I don't mind the large lean angle - I was more concerned about whether it was 'bad' as in dangerous and I shouldn't be doing it.

Thanks guys!

[FJ12Ryder]

Riding splay footed doesn't always slow you down. This is the most common view most racers saw of "Mike the Bike". Check out the toes of his boots.

I had this poster on my wall when I was stationed in Germany. I was over there the year after Honda pulled out of Grand Prix racing. I did talk to a guy who heard the

Honda 6 at a race and he said it would give you goosebumps. He said it just screamed.

[mk2davis]

I don't know if someone else mentioned this (maybe I missed it), but if you need more motivation to lean inside here you go. Generally, greater lean angle equals less contact patch. Less contact match means less room for error. By you, the other guy, mother nature, or chance.

[thtanner]

Hi All,

Once again - thanks for all the detailed responses. Just so I can summarise what I've understood and make sure that we're all on the same page.

Firstly, just to restate - I'm talking about road riding, not track riding. Personally I don't care about going around a corner fast - I care about going around a corner fun. (But safe) I don't BLAT. (Brake late and turn), nor do I accelerate crazy out of a corner. I enjoy a tight corner. All the talk I've mentioned about breaking in a corner is not to reduce speed to that suitable for the corner (as that's done well before I get to the corner) - but being prepared for any unexpected hazards during the turn.

Having said that - this is what I've gleaned todate from what's being said. Please correct me if I've misunderstood:

1) I'm getting the message that the more the bike leans the worse it is. Even though I'm finding staying on top of the bike is fun because it gives an increased bike angle (thrill) even at lower speeds, it's also more dangerous because the bike is using more traction which reduces the amount of margin remaining and I shouldn't be doing it. I'd should use some of my body to compensate. Might be a little less thrilling not to be over as far, but it's safer?

2) Feet position. I need to work on my pigeon toes. While I do have large feet - I also need to learn how to move my feet to balls and then back again for breaking again whilst in a turn real quick?

3) Forget getting my butt off (and leg down) (at least at this stage). I should start by moving my shoulder / upper torso across to move my centreline inside the bikes, and my Centre of Gravity likewise. This should give me a happy medium for enjoyable road riding whilst still getting a bit of a lean without going over the top.

4) Consider trying a slight drag of the rear brake to feel the difference. (Per Scablifter's post).

Remember - I don't mind the large lean angle - I was more concerned about whether it was 'bad' as in dangerous and I shouldn't be doing it.

Thanks guys!

1) Absolutely

2) You shouldn't need to use the rear (or any) brake at all during a turn. If you're going fast enough you need to, then you entered the turn way to quickly! Manage your entry speed to ensure you do not have to slow down mid-turn. Once out of the turn you can move your foot up towards the rear brake if you're more comfortable with that. I rarely use brakes, if ever, when riding hard in the canyons. I slow my entry speed with engine braking, and power out of the turn. I rarely ever have to use the brake, unless something out of my control happens (other cars, bikes, road conditions, etc).

3) Yup! Your upper body weighs a decent bit, so moving it into the turn really helps reduce the lean angles required to get through a turn.

4) I would avoid this technique. It does not apply to every-day riding. This upsets the 40/60 weight distribution, and is something you really do not need to do, and I'll be honest, you shouldn't do (especially on the street).

What I'm gathering from your post is you need to slow down when entering the turns, and learn to accelerate through them (instead of slowing through them).

[adamv]

Thanks for your reply. I believe I'm beginning to understand in some ways, but have new confusions now:

I rarely ever have to use the brake, unless something out of my control happens (other cars, bikes, road conditions, etc).

That's precisely why I want to be ready to use the break.

What I'm gathering from your post is you need to slow down when entering the turns, and learn to accelerate through them (instead of slowing through them).

You're gathering wrong. :) I'm not sure how I'm misrepresenting myself or how to explain differently but I'll try:

I am not going into corners too fast. I am not breaking late. My only concern for having the ability to use the rear brake is if part way around the corner something unexpected occurs. (a rider in front of me has come off, a cow on the road, etc).

As I understand it the speed that I travel should always be that which I can brake and stop within the distance I can view. Since on many larger turns you can not see through the other side until you're half way around the corner - I understand that I need to travel at a speed I can brake and come to a stop part way through the corner.

As such - it seems foolish for me to assume that I can go all the way through the corner without needing my rear brake and hoping that the rest of the road will be clear. I'm not sure what I'm missing or why others don't believe that braking will ever be necessary unless I'm travelling into the corner too fast to start with. Remember I'm talking roads here, not race tracks.

Thanks.

[thtanner]

Thanks for your reply. I believe I'm beginning to understand in some ways, but have new confusions now:

I rarely ever have to use the brake, unless something out of my control happens (other cars, bikes, road conditions, etc).

That's precisely why I want to be ready to use the break.

What I'm gathering from your post is you need to slow down when entering the turns, and learn to accelerate through them (instead of slowing through them).

You're gathering wrong. :) I'm not sure how I'm misrepresenting myself or how to explain differently but I'll try:

I am not going into corners too fast. I am not breaking late. My only concern for having the ability to use the rear brake is if part way around the corner something unexpected occurs. (a rider in front of me has come off, a cow on the road, etc).

As I understand it the speed that I travel should always be that which I can brake and stop within the distance I can view. Since on many larger turns you can not see through the other side until you're half way around the corner - I understand that I need to travel at a speed I can brake and come to a stop part way through the corner.

As such - it seems foolish for me to assume that I can go all the way through the corner without needing my rear brake and hoping that the rest of the road will be clear. I'm not sure what I'm missing or why others don't believe that braking will ever be necessary unless I'm travelling into the corner too fast to start with. Remember I'm talking roads here, not race tracks.

Thanks.

I think we've crossed into the realm of over-thinking things a bit. Let's double back.

When I said I rarely, if ever, use the brake in a turn, that is the truth. That being said, I cover the front brake at all times when riding. So there's nothing wrong with doing that in a turn, including covering the rear sometimes. Note, your best way to avoid a dangerous situation is not always just hitting the brakes. Having situational awareness and always having an 'out' i.e. able to move to different lane position, etc (even in a turn) is a huge part of it.

If there's no where to go, that's when you're going for those brakes mid-turn. Emergency braking mid-turn is never good situation, as you're best bet is standing up the bike and straitening out when doing so.

I personally don't think covering the rear brake during the turn is necessary, or even a particularly good technique. It promotes a bad body position, and doesn't allow you to put that weight on the balls of your feet during the turn (throwing that weight into the turn) as you should. However, If you need to cover the front and rear brake to feel comfortable during turns, go for it. Just remember braking isn't always the best option when doing so.

[VFR4Lee]

Apart from body position, choice of line through the turn matters a lot.

I normally go with a wide late entry to the turn, less chance of apexing early and running wide on the exit.

You can see around thr turn better, less chance of running too tight,

and it's more conducive to slow in fast out too, not that I want to leave burnt rubber on corner exits.

For the "hero blobs" you can drag those all day, grind them down to nubs.

Take them off and grind the pegs too for that matter. No problem.

At least I have done so on my 5th gen in the past, on the street, and I'm not even very aggressive.

[thtanner]

Apart from body position, choice of line through the turn matters a lot.

I normally go with a wide late entry to the turn, less chance of apexing early and running wide on the exit.

You can see around thr turn better, less chance of running too tight,

and it's more conducive to slow in fast out too, not that I want to leave burnt rubber on corner exits.

For the "hero blobs" you can drag those all day, grind them down to nubs.

Take them off and grind the pegs too for that matter. No problem.

At least I have done so on my 5th gen in the past, on the street, and I'm not even very aggressive.

I'm also huge about the 'ultra late apex' turn. I never apex until I can see out of the exit of the turn. Even with that I ended up scraping both pegs this last weekend and I was not going too hard either.

I forgot to also +1 Total Control. A really quality read.