Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted December 30, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted December 30, 2013 Of course, there's an easier way... A group order of a bunch of supercharger kits (to make a batch run viable for the company that has the design of the kit)... But that probably should be a separate topic of its own... ;) Oh yes, the Torocharger. It delivered the 150+ HP desire everyone wanted for the 5th and 6th gen. It was so successful that...are there even 10 kits out there in use right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Of course, there's an easier way... A group order of a bunch of supercharger kits (to make a batch run viable for the company that has the design of the kit)... But that probably should be a separate topic of its own... ;) Oh yes, the Torocharger. It delivered the 150+ HP desire everyone wanted for the 5th and 6th gen. It was so successful that...are there even 10 kits out there in use right now? If I were independently wealthy, I would have been all over one of those kits like white on rice. Unfortunately, reality intrudes, and it's a bit hard to spend 5k on a supercharger kit for a bike worth maybe $3500. Not that I think the kit was overpriced, on the contrary, for what he delivered, and compared to turbo kits currently on the market for Gixxer 1000s and ZX-14s and Busas, it was well priced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted December 30, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted December 30, 2013 Don't know about easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannytb Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Don't  know  about  easier. Wasn't it just an exercise in kit installation, then getting the local dyno guys to tune it? That has to be easier than working out which/what pistons/rods/additional stroke will work, then rebuilding the engine? I'm not saying that it isn't a worthy project to bore/stroke a VFR. I'm just saying that the supercharger kit would be an easier option if the company could be convinced to do a production run. Given the cost of various parts and machinist work, the supercharger could be cheaper too... Hmmm... What about the bore/stroke AND supercharging... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted December 30, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted December 30, 2013 Easier probably the wrong word. For sure the non aspirated would be better for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted December 31, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted December 31, 2013 You guys mite be on to something .... A lot of people here are wanting the magic 150hp number .. I think 125 hp with Honda parts bin components is doable with stroking the engine... lightweight rods, pistons, and valve train work could add additional rpm to the redline making higher hp possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I did the math and i should be at about 115 whp right now (still untuned so i may be able to get close to 120 whp after a good custom dyno tune). A port, polish and milling of the heads should get me to at least 125 whp. Then a set a custom ground cams and degreeing them should put me at least 135 whp. Boring and/or stroking the block should be the final step in getting close to 150 whp and of course she would need to be tuned in between all these steps.  Let me finish the suspension/brakes and sell all the old parts and then I will do a custom dyno tune and post the sheet for you guys that always have to demand a dyno sheet. It would be nice to find someone else with a stockish 6th gen to come in with to compare against. I am going to have them keep adding timing until it stops making power. I stopped at 4 degrees since it didn't make since to keep adding timing with out being to check the numbers first.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer belovian Posted February 5, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 5, 2014 Don't know about easier. Wasn't it just an exercise in kit installation, then getting the local dyno guys to tune it? That has to be easier than working out which/what pistons/rods/additional stroke will work, then rebuilding the engine? I'm not saying that it isn't a worthy project to bore/stroke a VFR. I'm just saying that the supercharger kit would be an easier option if the company could be convinced to do a production run. Given the cost of various parts and machinist work, the supercharger could be cheaper too... Hmmm... What about the bore/stroke AND supercharging... ;) Sadly any dreams of reviving the torocahrger are dead. The guy running the company now works for rotrex, and the shop he did all his work in was his fathers machine shop which has since been sold off. I had inquired about getting some parts made to convert a 6th gen kit to a 5th gen. and it was a definitive "no can do" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer SAFE-T Posted February 5, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 5, 2014 Honda found that if you were willing to rebuild the engine every 500km they could get 190hp outt of the RC45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Honda found that if you were willing to rebuild the engine every 500km they could get 190hp outt of the RC45. Indeed, at the end of the RC45s life it was comparable to the NSR500 for power... very impressive. No wonder they based the V5 in the RC211V on the RC45/VFR800 architecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted May 16, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted May 16, 2014 Still looking at this, just have not had the time this winter what with starting a new job & moving home & my other half having an operation ! Phew, I need a rest. I need to talk to some engineering types & have found a possible piston option to take it out to 916cc ! This is with 78mm pistons weighing the same as the standard ones ! it's almost summer now, so all this will be on drip feed over the summer as I have to many other things to be doing, cold winter nights are good for tearing down engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zRoYz Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 It's a strange thing the performance bug & always wanting more, the VFR all gens are such good all-round bikes yet owners tend to never be satisfied & more power is always the go too point. I'm like everybody else & wanted more power, too the point I have a 6th gen torro charger kit sitting in my garage but since buying the kit have fallen on my head so to speak & have had a change of heart so the kit just sits in the garage collecting dust. I really should fit the kit but honestly I don't need the power & extra weight on my bike for the riding I do because I'm already at the limits of the bike/skill so can't go any quicker. I have built my bike with top shelf suspension & tried to shed as much weight as possible without going radical building a light weight subframe (like the new 2014 VFR) so through corners I'm already at the bikes ground clearance limits even hanging off like a monkey to change the centre of gravity. That means I can't go any faster through said corner which will increase lean angle past the limits I have so increasing the power output will only be a benefit in a straight line which isn't my buzz. I admit if my painful left knee let me ride a sportsbike I would own a ZX10R which will leave my VFR for dead even with a supercharger fitted just because of the specific nature of a sportsbike weight & ground clearance wise, you simply can't get a VFR through a corner at the same velocity. Granted nothing makes me smile more than my VFR putting sportsbike riders to shame, but that's due to the different skill levels between riders. There was a comment about the supercharger kit price, well the kit for hp increase is the bargain of the century, just price up the motor work needed to try to gain the same hp from engine modifications which will never yield the same results & also be far less reliable & you will then realise how cheap the kit was. The problem with the limited numbers sold is more to do with economics, most don't have that sort of money just sitting around especially considering the demographic of a VFR rider who is probably married with kids & is doing well anyway just able to own a kick ass bike like the VFR. The few like the OP who are able to modify there bikes due to passion & enjoying the project/challenge are few & far between but are inspiration to the rest of us so we have something to dream about doing to our bikes even if not really practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CornerCarver Posted May 16, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted May 16, 2014 to both Mohawk and Roy...I am firmly on the fence here and find it tragic that now that I can put the fun money towards a Toro Charger that the product no longer exists. All down to economics of that moment in time. Sadly it could happen on a larger scale to a model or brand you love and support as well so I am hoping that I really like the new 800. I often think of buying the Toro Charger IP from Dan and trying to make t work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted May 19, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted May 19, 2014 Hmmm. Might need some investors... Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 It's a strange thing the performance bug & always wanting more, the VFR all gens are such good all-round bikes yet owners tend to never be satisfied Well I don't think it just applies to VFR's, I've always been that way, With cars, sportbikes and even things like lawnmowers. But I will say I don't just go for power, I start with suspension, brakes, weight, tuning and then end up really modifying the engine. I'm all in for the 916 with a complete spare engine to work with. In the mean time I've got plans for the brakes and suspension on both my 5th gen's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I often think of buying the Toro Charger IP from Dan and trying to make t work. That would be very interesting.. If you do buy him out, you will need move several of the parts from multi part fabrications to single construction pieces, maybe make them from different materials. But that is a different thread, unless you intend to sell it as part of a big bore kit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted July 27, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 27, 2014 If you have the Torro charger, then you don't need any engine mods & can have 160-170rwhp at your disposal at the twist of your wrist. This was never my intension for the 5th gen, my concern was the lack of power from an engine that is basically an RC45 albeit in a disguise. So 120rwhp with a normally aspirated engine was my target, with minimum engine mods & I'm still working on that. But, the research into that lead me to other options that could have seen Honda release a late 90's Blade as a V4, now I would have bought one of those. One thing people never mention but that I love about the V4's is their slimness, no sitting with your knees out to the sides the clear the gubbins of an IL4 engine, lovely. So taking the VFR800 block to its maximum, would lead to a 916cc version, came as the first Blade, but with around 140rwhp, which was 20 more than the first Blade ! The block was designed to make 200hp in RC45 race trim, so is massively under stressed in our 800's ! To date I think I'm at 110rwhp, just need another dyno test & tune, but looking forward to the Rapid Bike group buy to finish my tuning !!!! Watch this space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CornerCarver Posted July 31, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted July 31, 2014 I just sourced a 6G frame to go with my back up 5G engine...will start collecting parts for a VFR916R Track bike. May try to build three as the boys are into the track culture after this http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/78711-carolina-motorsports-park/ weekend... Alloy subframe and front fairing stay...high mount rear sets...TBR or similar new exhaust...RC45 track plastics from airtech or similar...here we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted August 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted August 1, 2014 I just sourced a 6G frame to go with my back up 5G engine...will start collecting parts for a VFR916R Track bike. May try to build three as the boys are into the track culture after this http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/78711-carolina-motorsports-park/ weekend... Alloy subframe and front fairing stay...high mount rear sets...TBR or similar new exhaust...RC45 track plastics from airtech or similar...here we go. You feel there is significant benefit with 6g frame vs 5g? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CornerCarver Posted August 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted August 1, 2014 Honestly I can't tell how much of the improved handling between the 5G and 6G is from the main frame vs the better (stiffer) 43mm forks vs the 1" longer swingarm. It just all works so well and the 2nd Gen VFR LBS is a treat compared to the 5G system. I will initially go with a 6G frame, fabbed front stays of alloy and rear sub frame of the same, a 6G cush and a 5G swingarm with CBR-F4i forks and RC51 brakes I do know that I must have the 6G cush mount to run some aftermarket rear sets and since I need a frame any way there is no cost savings to search for a 5G vs 6G so that is where I am starting. I'll send a few emails off to various engine builders familiar with V4s to decide where to send my tore down 5g engine for the 76-78mm pistons and see if anyone is keen on trying to find 2-4mm additional stroke. I have kicked around the idea of a 360 degree crank and real RC45 spec cams but would then be stuck a one off exhaust or a $2000 ladybird system. pay as you go should allow me to build a V4 track bike at a fraction (okay about half but still less) of what an RSV4 would cost. Time for me to realize that Honda are building bikes for the emerging motorcycling world now and have no interest in a performance V4 anymore. Sop I need to stop bitching and just build it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted August 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted August 1, 2014 We are in the same boat. .. I'm looking for a VFR900... well that is what I would paint on the bike :) I've been collecting track bike parts for about a year. Falicon in FL can stroke, lighten, and balance the rotating assembly on the V4s... APE can't Falicon has a good rep for their quality... they were featured in a MC article where they got 8 more hp from an R1 just by balancing and polishing the crank... engine was much smoother and spun up quicker too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted August 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted August 1, 2014 If you find the right length Honda parts bin con-rods please let me know... or we may end up buying custom rods together. Most I've researched want a min order of 10 rods I'm looking for 4mm stroke... so 2mm shorter rods should work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted August 6, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted August 6, 2014 Well if you guys get round to this, then there are a few concerns. The stroking would require crank reworking. Honda worked the 45 by increasing the stroke 2mm for the 800. That is expensive. 4mm will give a long stroke of 52mm ! with a 78mm bore thats 993cc ! If memory serves the 800's conrods are 101.5mm or approx 4" long c-2-c, RC45 are shorter, but I'm not sure of the length. The block is open deck, with 8mm cylinder wall thickness as standard, so a 78mm bore (Wiseco CBR1000RR) would leave 5mm wall thickness, which is not probably thick enough. So you would needs a water jacket reinforcer like they use on car blocks. The biggest issue is getting the new bore centered on the old one. Then nickasil the alloy & its good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted August 6, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted August 6, 2014 Well if you guys get round to this, then there are a few concerns. The stroking would require crank reworking. Honda worked the 45 by increasing the stroke 2mm for the 800. That is expensive. 4mm will give a long stroke of 52mm ! with a 78mm bore thats 993cc ! If memory serves the 800's conrods are 101.5mm or approx 4" long c-2-c, RC45 are shorter, but I'm not sure of the length. The block is open deck, with 8mm cylinder wall thickness as standard, so a 78mm bore (Wiseco CBR1000RR) would leave 5mm wall thickness, which is not probably thick enough. So you would needs a water jacket reinforcer like they use on car blocks. The biggest issue is getting the new bore centered on the old one. Then nickasil the alloy & its good to go. I'm looking at a 4mm or 6mm stroke with stock bore (847cc or 880cc) or a 4mm stroke with +2mm overbore (895cc). I'm doing research and calcs to determine the rod angularity and the higher piston speeds to evaluate acceleration forces, stresses, and feasibility. So with those strokes in mind I think I will need a 99.5mm or 98.5mm con-rods. I haven't found any Honda parts bin candidates so it looks like custom rods... $$$. If that's the case it will need to be put on the back burner until Spring '15. PS: 52mm is a long stroke for this engine but the CBR929 and CBR954 have 54mm strokes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CornerCarver Posted August 6, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted August 6, 2014 I am targeting a 76mm bore and I guess (based on the above info from Mohawk and Rush - hey, that sounds like a wild west saloon?-) that I am looking for some stock Honda con-rods with a length of 99-99.5mm with a 36mm big end and a 17mm small end diameter. Am I missing anything else? What would that put the displacement at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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