vic28222 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I have a 99 VFR with about 35K on it and my steering head bearings are shot. I was going to try to replace them myself but several friends have said that this is a "BIG" job and without special tools, etc. that it is something I should leave to a pro. I have gotten several quotes from shops I trust and it seems that all of them want about $200 in labor to do this job. Is this really something a fix-it-yourself kind of guy who has a reasonable set of tools and average mechanical skills/knowledge should not attempt? What if anything makes this such a difficult job? What special tools might be needed such as a bearing driver, etc. Can these tools be rented? What is the general thinking about going with All Balls Tapered Roller bearings vs OEM? The shops strongly advise against tapered bearings while I have heard more than a few rave about tapered bearings. Can anyone point me to a set of detailed instructions on the procedure, complete with photos? I looked on VFRD and all I found was a situation where a guy posted what not to do. Apparently he broke his steering head casting trying to do this job by himself. Was that a fluke or is that a real risk I should shy away from? Thanks in advance for your help! Vic PS. If you would like to write me off list, please feel free to do so at vic5491@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Ain't that big a deal if you take your time and pay attention. You'll have to take the whole front end off the bike though. Look around on the site for a write up I did for doing it on a 6th Gen. When you replace them, you want to go with the All Ballz tapered roller bearings. I can't believe in this day and age Honda (or anyone else) still uses ball bearings in the steering stem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer radar Posted January 21, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted January 21, 2009 Ain't that big a deal if you take your time and pay attention. You'll have to take the whole front end off the bike though.Look around on the site for a write up I did for doing it on a 6th Gen. When you replace them, you want to go with the All Ballz tapered roller bearings. I can't believe in this day and age Honda (or anyone else) still uses ball bearings in the steering stem. Would you have the part# for these bearings, I need to do this myself and was looking for the parts. I believe there the same for both 5th and 6th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WERA910 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I have a 99 VFR with about 35K on it and my steering head bearings are shot. ~~What if anything makes this such a difficult job? What special tools might be needed such as a bearing driver, etc. ~~ What is the general thinking about going with All Balls Tapered Roller bearings vs OEM?~~ Can anyone point me to a set of detailed instructions on the procedure, complete with photos? Hi Vic, It is a difficult, but not impossible job. I've done a few bikes, including my last fifth gen for the same type of feeling at around 40k miles. I used All Balls on all the ones I replaced. I think it is a good product. There are others out there and I've heard of better bearing makers than the ones they use... but it's the way I went... What makes it difficult: Well, positioning the bike for one... I hung mine from an engine hoist... which I tend to use a lot for other motorcycle things... worked like a champ. I've seen one person do it by propping up the front.. but if it's not secure theres a real chance of it falling... consider you have to use a hammer and a drift to drive the old ones out and the new races in. The way of failing is getting it out of square... you can actually crack the steering head on the bike. getting the races off the steering stem can be challenging too, I think I used a cut off wheel to notch it, a chisel to break it and it came right off... used a press to install the new one. Reinstalling the races in the head of the frame is very challenging. The factory makes a special tool to do this, and I'm unsure if you can rent it anywhere. I've done three different bikes and I've never used one yet. I did use a combination of a long bolt and nut, plus some big washers, and the old races to seat the new races in the frame... I don't have any pictures... I hope I'm explaining this well. I'm sure we could do a search on the inter-web and find some pics for you. Oh, the new ones go in with a little preload, differnt than the ball bearings. Seems strange at first, but it works. You can't have any drag in action, but they're not set at zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Is 22-1020 the right All Ballz part # for the VFR800? How much $ ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 'Bout $30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmythecop Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 2 things: 1 do not leave your all balz laying around because they will rust before you put them in (ask me how I kinow) 2 propperly manufactured and set up ball bearing are superior to taperd roller bearings due to less surface contact and therefore less drag. You bet your buttocks that Valentino's bike has ball bearings in it. Roller bearings will last a whole lot longer and we prolly cant tell the difference, but factually, ball bearings are better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V4 Rosso Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Can anyone point me to a set of detailed instructions on the procedure, complete with photos? I looked on VFRD and all I found was a situation where a guy posted Here you go: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...;showarticle=36 I didn 't need any special tools beside the spanners to tighten the steering head nuts. For that I used two bicycle bottom bracket spanners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB-Oz Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 If you're not mechanically minded, then go to a shop to get it done. I went to tapered roller bearings when I did my front end conversion, so I did not need to get the old lower bearing off the steering stem. To get the new bearing onto the new SP1 steering stem I used some pipe that fit over the stem but was the right diameter to contact the right part of the bearing race, then I just tapped (bashed) the top of the pipe until it was seated. About the only special tool you'll need is the one to do the steering stem nut. My father in law made me one, they are a ridiculous price from Honda. Without one of these its hard to get a torque setting, but with tapered bearings the "tightness" of the nut is all by feel anyway. After about 500km you'll want to check the tightness of the nut again as the bearings will settle in. Hope it helps. AB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JamieDaugherty Posted January 22, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted January 22, 2009 2 propperly manufactured and set up ball bearing are superior to taperd roller bearings due to less surface contact and therefore less drag. You bet your buttocks that Valentino's bike has ball bearings in it. Roller bearings will last a whole lot longer and we prolly cant tell the difference, but factually, ball bearings are better. Actually I'll bet my paycheck that Valentino's bike has tapered roller bearings in it. All racebikes have tapered roller bearings. They are superior in all ways except the one that Honda most cared about - cost. In fact, some newer Honda models come with them as standard. If they were worse and cost more then why would Honda use them? Answer: they wouldn't. Go with the tapered roller bearings. P.S. Tapered roller bearings have less friction. The CBR929's had a recall to change out the lower bearing from the original tapered roller design to a ball bearing. Why? The extra friction of the roller bearing helped decrease tankslappers. It was kind of stop-gap until they started putting steering dampers on bikes as standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Is 22-1020 the right All Ballz part # for the VFR800? Anyone know the correct all ballz part #? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FotoMoto Posted January 22, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted January 22, 2009 Is 22-1020 the right All Ballz part # for the VFR800? Anyone know the correct all ballz part #? Yes that is the correct number for the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6 gen. 2nd gen (RC30) is the only one that doesn't use those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Is 22-1020 the right All Ballz part # for the VFR800? Anyone know the correct all ballz part #? Yes that is the correct number for the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6 gen. 2nd gen (RC30) is the only one that doesn't use those. Thank you sir, but I'm not sure I can trust you after the helmet comment in the other thread! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I sold my 5th gen in September of 07, but I remember this process somewhat... I replaced the steering head bearings with the all balls tapered units 2 years ago. You have to be patient or else you'll damage something, really the whole race-removal/installation process has to be done with care, or else... The most challenging part was removing the race from the triple tree. I think I first went at this with a dremel and made a nice cut in it, then tried bashing it with a chisel to get it to fracture. The first cuts were not deep enough, preventing the race from fracturing nicely. You have to be patient and cut slightly deeper and deeper without cutting the tree. Once that was done, I tried to drive the new race on with a pipe and mallet/hammer. That proved virtually impossible after about an hour and 0 progress, and rather than risk damaging this nice new race (or the tree) I took 15 minutes to drive to a machine shop, 5 minutes of waiting, and another 15 minutes driving back, at a cost of $5 to have them press the new race on. Well worth it, since I don't own a press. Tapping the races onto the steering head wasn't bad for me. I bought the colorful harbor freight bearing/seal driver kit, but i don't think any of the driver sizes were the correct size, I was still able to use the tool in an unorthodox way, however. I also bought a fish-weighing device in order to set the tightness of the lock nut, and I made my own spanner wrench tool out of a dremeled-up hole saw drill bit. In the end, it turned out my old bearings were fine (vibrations were due to warped rotors, duhhh), but it was a good learning experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic28222 Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Can anyone point me to a set of detailed instructions on the procedure, complete with photos? I looked on VFRD and all I found was a situation where a guy posted Here you go: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...;showarticle=36 I didn 't need any special tools beside the spanners to tighten the steering head nuts. For that I used two bicycle bottom bracket spanners. Thanks a million! The "how to" by Miguel was exactly what I needed and could not find. I looked and looked. I haven't a clue why I did not find it myself. Looks like all I need to buy is the All Balls kit ($29), a bearing race and seal driver set (I need to verify the kit has the right size driver in it but maybe this one will work for $30 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95853) and a bicycle bottom bracket spanner for $14 from REI (http://www.rei.com/product/710554?cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-datafeed-_-product-_-na&mr:trackingCode=89918523-F0E7-DD11-9B0F-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA). So, I will have a little time invested and will have learned something valuable and will have saved a bunch of money in the process. In addition to saying thanks to you I want to thank all of the others who replied as well. I have a much better idea of what is involved now. Cheers! Vic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic28222 Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Tapping the races onto the steering head wasn't bad for me. I bought the colorful harbor freight bearing/seal driver kit, but i don't think any of the driver sizes were the correct size, I was still able to use the tool in an unorthodox way, however.I also bought a fish-weighing device in order to set the tightness of the lock nut, and I made my own spanner wrench tool out of a dremeled-up hole saw drill bit. I was going to buy the HF driver set until I saw your post. How were you able to use it in an "unorthodox" way to get the races into the steering head? (If anyone knows of an alternative way to do this that does not cost an arm and a leg and still does it right, please let us know. I hate to buy the wrong sized driver and still have to improvise.) Also, with tapered rollers is it necessary to use a fish scale to set the preload? Somehow I got the impression that all you have to do is tighten them down until they begin to bind and then back them off just enough to free them up. Is my understanding correct or do you really need to use a scale to set the preload properly? Vic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer IntAceptor Posted January 22, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted January 22, 2009 The proper torque on taper rollers is between 3 and 6 pounds depending on the bearing and the application (bike) it is installed in. You first tighten the adjustment nut down to about 25-30 pounds ( one or two white knuckles) to squeeze the grease away from the bearing surfaces and then loosen them all the way up. I also like to take the load off the front wheel for what I consider a truer final tightening. What I mean is that I don't let the wheel hang or have the weight of the bike on it. I chock it to as unweighted condition as I can make it before final tightening. When coming down on the nut, it goes from very loose to a snug fit real quick, like an eighth of a turn. From that point you can add another eighth to a quarter of a turn and you will be extremely close to the proper torque. I have used this on many taper rollers with perfect results on all accounts. It is important to lock the adjustment nut down with the bendable lock washer. The controversy is if the lock nut that the washer bends in to should be tightened down on the adjustment nut you torqued down -- or not. It would be pure luck to be able to get it tightened so that groves on the nuts lined up perfectly without moving the adjustment nut. I bring the lock nut in close and then bend the tabs on the washer into the groves of each nut. When you put the top bridge on and torque the stem nut to its 76 ft/lbs, you effectively are tightening against the lock nut which is attached to the adjustment nut via the bendable tab washer and in doing that, nothin' is goin' nowhere. You can get the races out with an old sharp screwdriver and hammer by very carefully tapping uniformly around the seated portion of the race. There is enough material protruding to get an edge of the screwdriver ( or home-made tool of your own ) on the race. If you go slow and constantly change position around the race, it will come loose and can be walked out. A large socket or the old race turned up side down can be used to seat the new race. It just has to be started uniformly and tapped in evenly. Seating the new bearing on the bottom of the steering stem can be done with a proper diameter pipe. I bought a hanger pipe at Home Depot that was a perfect fit. It made contact with the center of the bearing and didn't touch the rollers at all. A small bit of grease helps the issue. Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted January 23, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted January 23, 2009 Yes that is the correct number for the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6 gen. 2nd gen (RC30) is the only one that doesn't use those.Er, RC30 is 2nd-gen? Well, that would make the RC45 the 5th-gen, wouldn't it? There was a "generational" change in the RC24 line in 1988 (though the FJ and FK did not appear in the USA), which makes more sense to me as the "2nd-gen"...Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FotoMoto Posted January 23, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted January 23, 2009 Yes that is the correct number for the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6 gen. 2nd gen (RC30) is the only one that doesn't use those.Er, RC30 is 2nd-gen? Well, that would make the RC45 the 5th-gen, wouldn't it? There was a "generational" change in the RC24 line in 1988 (though the FJ and FK did not appear in the USA), which makes more sense to me as the "2nd-gen"...Ciao, The RC30 is officially a VFR750R here in the US of 'em A. Semantics, marketing, debate, whatever..... we can throw the VF1000R into this too to further muck things up. I see the FJ and FK models as upgrades to the 86 just like the differences between the 98-99 and 00-01 year 5gens. FWIW Maybe this will help this thread, for the US: 86-87 and 90-present all use the same head bearings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I was going to buy the HF driver set until I saw your post. How were you able to use it in an "unorthodox" way to get the races into the steering head? (If anyone knows of an alternative way to do this that does not cost an arm and a leg and still does it right, please let us know. I hate to buy the wrong sized driver and still have to improvise.)Also, with tapered rollers is it necessary to use a fish scale to set the preload? Somehow I got the impression that all you have to do is tighten them down until they begin to bind and then back them off just enough to free them up. Is my understanding correct or do you really need to use a scale to set the preload properly? Vic This is the bearing driver set I have: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/disp...temnumber=95853 You may already realize this, but just in case you don't: Notice how the drivers themselves are beveled, with a trapezoidal cross-section, and a larger-diameter lip, when viewed from the side. I think they are intended to be used in such a way that the end of the bearing race is in contact with the lip, while the rest of the driver piece sits 'inside' the race--this way, the driver does not move around while you're tapping the race in. The trouble is that none of the sizes fit inside the bearing races AND had the lip in good contact with the race. So, the tool does not fit ideally. When I say 'unorthodox', what I mean is that I just used the flat end of the driver tool to bang the race in, rather than use the lip. The small ends were the proper diameter, but you don't have the assurance of the tool staying in position that you get when you use the tool the proper way. This makes it a little bit more difficult to tap the race in perfectly straight. So yeah, a little bit of improvisation. If I had a better tool I would have used it. I was worried about not tapping the races in straight, but everything seemed to turn out OK in the end. I couldn't tell if I'd made a mistake, the steering was great. As far as the scale and setting preload: My opinion is mixed. I think the scale will get you in the ballpark and provide some quantitative that you are making reasonable adjustments. However, in the end, what matters is how it feels. I searched a lot about this very topic back in the day, and there seemed to be differing opinions about what the proper preload should be due to the difference between tapered roller bearings and ball bearings. I *think* I tightened mine too tight at first, and then backed it off till it felt lighter. You can tell when it's too tight. To make sure it wasn't too loose, I lifted the front end up and down and verified that there was no discernible play. I really wasn't anal about it, and either I got lucky or I got close enough. I never experienced any headshake, instability, or other steering problems, doing aggressive riding including three track days. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FotoMoto Posted January 23, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted January 23, 2009 1 do not leave your all balz laying around because they will rust before you put them in (ask me how I kinow) Funny that. I have an open set that's been sitting on the shelf for nearly 3 years (procrastinator) in a very humid environment and they have absolutely no rust or other damage. Maybe your set didn't get coated with preservative. FWIW This thread has encouraged me to finally get my ass in gear and install them in the RCBVFR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted January 23, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted January 23, 2009 Yes that is the correct number for the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6 gen. 2nd gen (RC30) is the only one that doesn't use those.Er, RC30 is 2nd-gen? Well, that would make the RC45 the 5th-gen, wouldn't it? There was a "generational" change in the RC24 line in 1988 (though the FJ and FK did not appear in the USA), which makes more sense to me as the "2nd-gen"...Ciao, The RC30 is officially a VFR750R here in the US of 'em A. The one with "RC30" on the rear cowling? :biggrin: Still seems out of place, though, being a race-rep, rather than a true road bike... Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FotoMoto Posted January 23, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted January 23, 2009 The one with "RC30" on the rear cowling? :biggrin: Yup, just like the RC51 is an RVT1000R here but it's a VTR1000R SP1 or SP2 there. Marketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrurknee Posted January 23, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted January 23, 2009 1 do not leave your all balz laying around because they will rust before you put them in (ask me how I kinow) Funny that. I have an open set that's been sitting on the shelf for nearly 3 years (procrastinator) in a very humid environment and they have absolutely no rust or other damage. Maybe your set didn't get coated with preservative. FWIW Me too Doug but mine are still in the original sealed package. No signs of rust. Probably that Jersey air caused your problem Timmy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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