Gelthos Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I have the dreaded touchy throttle at low speeds and it seems like the pair valve is the first place to start. I keep finding 2 different suggestions, simply unplug the electrical connection or plug all the bits and pieces. It seems to me just unplugging the connector would be the easiest. Let me know, and as always thank you in advance for any help, my wife may actually start riding with me again if I can get this sorted out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted September 15, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 15, 2015 The solution most of use and feel does the best to resolve this is by installing a Power Commander. Others will go a step further and disable/remove the PAIR valve system and the flapper/snorkel from the airbox. I had the latter removed but reinstalled them as I only noticed a louder intake noise and no real benefit There are plenty of maps in the download section for the PCV (Power Commander 5) that may get you what you're looking for. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 o2 eliminators Thread\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted September 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 16, 2015 +1 for the PC, whether III or V. It's also good practice to be sure there are no vacuum leaks (which also goes for PAIR), remove excess slack in the throttle cable and be sure the fuel system is in good nick - clean fuel and clean injectors. To the latter, I removed mine and had them professionally cleaned which helped smooth out the last bit of roughness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MarkDetroit Posted September 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 16, 2015 As far as i know neither the pair valve removal or the flapper valve mod will help with a touchy throttle. Actually when I deactivated the flapper valve I got a noticeable off-idle stumble. It was back to normal when the flapper function was restored. (Your results may vary...) +1 to Cogswell suggestions. Do you know & can you list what mods have already been done to the bike? If the throttle problem is bad then maybe something was done wrong or should be un-done. The concern for a vacuum leak is valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VifferCrab Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 So when you install a Power Commander after you've done the "fixes", do you 'undo' the other pair/flapper/snorkel mods, back to stock? Or do you still keep those mods in place? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted September 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 16, 2015 This affliction does seem to vary between bikes & owners. How many miles does your 6th Gen have? Mine has defintely gotten smoother with increasing mileage (now at over 60k), but it also improved the most, and this is all anecdotal, after balancing the SVs and fitting O2 eliminators. I have since disconnected the PAIR system electrically and completed the other, previously mentioned airbox mods. All in all, it's a beautiful bike to ride, easy on the throttle at any speed or revs and a joy to ride. That's why i don't mind jumping on it after riding my 1200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer dawson Posted September 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 16, 2015 The PAIR valve is normally open and needs power to close. If you unplug the connector, it will stay open all the time. This dumps fresh air into the exhaust in front of the O2 sensor and create a false lean. The ECU will richen up the mixture, which can make the snatchiness worse. You'll also get popping when you decelerate. Plugging the hoses will be more effective. If you pull all the hoses, you can use rubber vacuum caps on the head inlets and the airbox outlet to see if it helps you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 after balancing the SVs If this bike has not had the starter valves balanced at least once in its life, do this. If it was done but it was a long time ago, do it again. These valves control all air input from zero to four percent throttle, and control the balance between all four cylinders which is critical to smoothness off-idle. Second is the fueling computer. Power Commander V (no reason to get the older III unless it is for a steal) is common and thus is good for finding people to share maps with, but there are also alternatives (pricier) such as Rapidbike. The reason this is appropriate for your problem is that all vehicles are run lean from the factory in order to comply with the EPA's arbitrary, super-strict standards. The engine needs more fuel. It does not run correctly from the factory and everyone knows it. You may find areas such as 3500 rpm where the engine actually stutters due to an ultra lean condition. This is the big joke on humanity. It is also dangerous to motorcyclists to cause such a lean condition, but who in Washington D.C. cares about your life? No one. Just one vote here for not disconnecting stock equipment. Whatever modification you make the ECU adjusts to it as the bike constantly tries to match the ultra lean conditions it was programmed for. Leave it in stock condition because the changes do no tangible good, or secondly, for the next potential buyer who may be vehemently against such changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfr Posted September 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 16, 2015 I have the dreaded touchy throttle at low speeds and it seems like the pair valve is the first place to start. I keep finding 2 different suggestions, simply unplug the electrical connection or plug all the bits and pieces. It seems to me just unplugging the connector would be the easiest. Let me know, and as always thank you in advance for any help, my wife may actually start riding with me again if I can get this sorted out. Clear answer: Power Commander is the fix, nothing else will do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 50% of the power commander fix, is the o2 sensor eliminators that come with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gelthos Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 Wow thanks for the responses, I just bought the bike about a month ago. I has 29k on it and the only mod to my knowledge is gutted stock pipes. My issue is def with closed throttle to just slightly open, I know the starter valves have not been touched so that may be an issue. I feel it's a bit dangerous now, the other day I was going through a long slow corner and the instant on/off power was scary. I've started riding it like a dirt bike and using the clutch to prevent this.'​ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VifferCrab Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I definitely have had that feeling of "holy crap" when doing slow maneuvers on mine. Sometimes it reminds me of an old fashioned 'neutral drop' in a 1970's Chevy Nova. :) For now, I slip the clutch... PCV coming soon, I suppose... Speaking of: Have we determined the best/cheapest place to get the PCV's these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gelthos Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 Lol yes exactly, I'm glad I'm not the only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I know the starter valves have not been touched so that may be an issue. You can compare and contrast your experience with this discussion: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/77919-starter-valve-syncing-and-low-speed-throttle-response/ Note that HighSideNZ staggered the vacuum at the largest intervals within the specified variance and seems to feel it provided smoother performance. As every bike is different, you may find better response from a different setting. Not to take anything for granted although you would probably do this anyway, but as part of this clean the sv mechanisms in case they are sticking. Plenty of gunk has probably flown through there over 29k miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRicer Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I definitely have had that feeling of "holy crap" when doing slow maneuvers on mine. Sometimes it reminds me of an old fashioned 'neutral drop' in a 1970's Chevy Nova. :) For now, I slip the clutch... PCV coming soon, I suppose... Speaking of: Have we determined the best/cheapest place to get the PCV's these days? Do it man. especially with all the money you've been putting into your bike, im a tad surprised a PCV wasn't on top of the list, especially with aftermarket exhaust. its a whole new bike with it. but to answer your question. Its the same price everywhere and at least you get some money towards your next purchase if you use Revzilla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MarkDetroit Posted September 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 16, 2015 My issue is def with closed throttle to just slightly open, I know the starter valves have not been touched so that may be an issue. I feel it's a bit dangerous now, the other day I was going through a long slow corner and the instant on/off power was scary.'​ This describes the off-idle stumble that I noticed when I did the flapper valve mod on my 2006. I reactivate the system after I noticed this issue. The mod was fine with my 2001 but not with the 6th gen that I ride now. Look to see if the vacuum line to the flapper is plugged to deactivate the system. The P.O. may have done that and not mentioned it. (BTW - Not everyone has problems after stopping off or removing the flapper valve.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gelthos Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 My issue is def with closed throttle to just slightly open, I know the starter valves have not been touched so that may be an issue. I feel it's a bit dangerous now, the other day I was going through a long slow corner and the instant on/off power was scary.'​ This describes the off-idle stumble that I noticed when I did the flapper valve mod on my 2006. I reactivate the system after I noticed this issue. The mod was fine with my 2001 but not with the 6th gen that I ride now. Look to see if the vacuum line to the flapper is plugged to deactivate the system. The P.O. may have done that and not mentioned it. (BTW - Not everyone has problems after stopping off or removing the flapper valve.) Will do after work tonight and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted September 17, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 17, 2015 Clear answer is first eliminate excess chain slack and adjust the throttle free play to remove excess slop... Allow me to elaborated... some magazine testers complained about theRC45 slight off idle jerkiness while others praised the fuel injectionas flawless... what is the chief difference??? simply the amount ofslack in the chain... the chain slack must be set at the absoluteminimum prescribe by Honda or an abrupt off idle jerkiness a keyelement of instantaneous fuel injection may be magnified by the seatof their pants... it also helps to be smooth at the critical on offthrottle transitions... fuel injected V4s are not only sensitive whatyou do but how you do it to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VifferCrab Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I definitely have had that feeling of "holy crap" when doing slow maneuvers on mine. Sometimes it reminds me of an old fashioned 'neutral drop' in a 1970's Chevy Nova. :) For now, I slip the clutch... PCV coming soon, I suppose... Speaking of: Have we determined the best/cheapest place to get the PCV's these days? Do it man. especially with all the money you've been putting into your bike, im a tad surprised a PCV wasn't on top of the list, especially with aftermarket exhaust. its a whole new bike with it.but to answer your question. Its the same price everywhere and at least you get some money towards your next purchase if you use Revzilla. Agreed, I'll do it. My whole build really just was planned to be a $500 fairing swap with an exhaust. Things have changed, slightly, lol. I thought I'd be happy with just the aesthetic changes, but that's no longer the case. I've even gone +2 on the rear sprocket, which inevitably will lead to something done about the front. PCV makes sense now. Then I'll get into daughtery upgrades in the spring. Then I'm getting close to having "invested" as much as a newer bike would've been. I just ticked over 10k miles so it's still new on the inside. I keep telling myself that you can't put a price on being different. I do this with all my vehicles. It's a sickness, plain and simple. These projects end up costing me just as much in ladies heels for my wife, so it's a double whammy. Happy wife, happy life. I'll start researching PCV tomorrow... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 FWIW, my '04 has a PCIII and O2 eliminators, with over 81k mi. on the clock - and I still get the abrupt on/off throttle response. I'm not a fan, but I learned to live with it, and feather the clutch when necessary. Maybe my next bike will be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 FWIW, my '04 has a PCIII and O2 eliminators, with over 81k mi. on the clock - and I still get the abrupt on/off throttle response. I'm not a fan, but I learned to live with it, and feather the clutch when necessary. Maybe my next bike will be better. Have you gone through tuning (and after all of those miles cleaning) of the starter valves? The transition from 4% throttle to 5% throttle is the transition of the air intake coming only through the starter valves, to the majority of air intake coming from the butterfly. The issue is a vacuum differential that must be tuned. Please note that if you did any mods affecting air flow or vacuum such as disabling the pair valve, reverse the mods to OEM condition before tuning the svs or you will in fact compound errors in the bike's operation. If there are issues with stumbling at higher rpms the fueling may need to be modified. Did you get a dyno? For this issue try finding a tuned map from someone with an exhaust setup similar to yours. BusyLittleShop's post about the chain adjustment makes a poignant argument: In cases where the bike is not operating correctly, all standard items must be thoroughly checked and adjusted. There is action vs. reaction. Something is not adjusted correctly and the reaction is an unpredictable response. You can find and correct the item that is not adjusted correctly. I am rooting for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted September 18, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 18, 2015 FWIW, my '04 has a PCIII and O2 eliminators, with over 81k mi. on the clock - and I still get the abrupt on/off throttle response. I'm not a fan, but I learned to live with it, and feather the clutch when necessary. Maybe my next bike will be better. It's so perplexing that some bikes seem to suffer from this and some do not. Once the PCIII with O2 elim's was installed and the injectors cleaned, I would probably believe that my VTEC had carbs if I didn't know differently - it's that smooth. No hint of stumble or abruptness at any rpm. It must be irritating as hell to have that going on, particularly when cornering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer dgordon Posted September 18, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 18, 2015 There seems to be a lot of confusion on this one. Power Commanders and O2 eliminators will address the Vtec transition at around 6-7K depending on your year. It also helps across the board, but low speed abruptness is problematic. The PC may not resolve such. Many have done the starter valve synch. Pair mods and such with varying results. I installed a G2 throttle tube which really helped. This seems to be more bandaid to the proper fix which would be starter valve synch. Hope to do that as I learn and discover more on the bike but the G2 helped big time. Hope this helps and adds to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllWeather Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 FWIW, my '04 has a PCIII and O2 eliminators, with over 81k mi. on the clock - and I still get the abrupt on/off throttle response. I'm not a fan, but I learned to live with it, and feather the clutch when necessary. Maybe my next bike will be better. Have you gone through tuning (and after all of those miles cleaning) of the starter valves? The transition from 4% throttle to 5% throttle is the transition of the air intake coming only through the starter valves, to the majority of air intake coming from the butterfly. The issue is a vacuum differential that must be tuned. Please note that if you did any mods affecting air flow or vacuum such as disabling the pair valve, reverse the mods to OEM condition before tuning the svs or you will in fact compound errors in the bike's operation. Actually the manual states that the pair system hoses should be removed from the valve covers whilst synching the starter valves and the pair ports to the head should be capped whilst performing the procedure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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