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Oil Changes, Hot vs. Cold


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On 8/20/2021 at 8:13 PM, FJ12Ryder said:

"I would be interested in learning algorithm that arrives at that 60% figure."

 

Yeah, me too. Wonder if it comes from that area near their back pocket? 🙂

 

I'd like to see the flow times for temps in which we typically ride - maybe 15 deg C (60 deg F) or higher.  If temps are freezing (0 deg C), I'm wrenching not riding. 

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Excellent video kbear, one I think every motorcyclist should see.

Personally have only ever used m/c specific oils for the reasons described in the video.

Don't see why you'd contemplate or risk using a car oil when there are so many excellent m/c oils out there.

As always and especially with oil! YMMV.

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1 hour ago, Kbear said:

Came across this and thought I would share. 

Will Car Oil Ruin Your Motorcycle Engine? | The Shop Manual - YouTube

All true.  At the same time, it takes a lot to get to the case where the auto oil = clutch slip.

 

We used to have a diesel test engineer on the board who explained all of this very well.  He would also add here that he goes for a low ratio between viscosities so it reduces the dependency on the VI modifiers...I.e. lower ratio will retain viscosity longer.

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12 hours ago, Grum said:

Don't see why you'd contemplate or risk using a car oil when there are so many excellent m/c oils out there.

I'm one who really can't wrap my mind around why mc owners would want to take a chance on automobile oils either. To save a couple dollars here and there on using such oils is really not worth it. In the long run it will do more harm than good. Inevitably, you always get the mc owner that will state "I've used this or that type auto oil in my motor for 15 years with no issues". That's all fine and good if you really don't give a shit about what you own. I feel more sorry for the motorcycle than I do the owner at that point. Not sure anything could be said to change anyone's mind that is dead set against using mc specific engine oils.

 

“Those who never change their minds, never change anything.” - Winston Churchill

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3 hours ago, Kbear said:

. In the long run it will do more harm than good.

 

Negative... either Auto or MC oil will meet and exceed your mileage  expectations...

 

There is no such thing as "for wet clutch" oil... given that motorcycles are small
part of the main oil market share our motorcycle oil is chiefly reformulated Auto
oil... In fact we don't find sufficient differences in additive package between
Mobil 1 Auto or Mobil 1 4T MC oil... However there is a biting difference in cost...

Here are virgin oil samples of $4.89 a quart Mobil 1 Auto Oil 10W40
and $9.98 a quart Mobil 4T Motorcycle specific oil... the additive packages
are so similar that our wet clutch wouldn't know the difference...

 full-45634-40107-mobil10w40v4t10w40.jpg

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Which are the additives in oils that are advertised to deal with the shearing effects of transmission gears?  A wet clutch has never been my concern.   

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13 hours ago, Captain 80s said:

Which are the additives in oils that are advertised to deal with the shearing effects of transmission gears?  A wet clutch has never been my concern.   

Those are boundary-layer extreme-pressure/extreme-heat additives such as ZDDP zinc & phosphorous for contact lubrication. Gearbox doesn't work on hydrodynamic pressure-film like with engine-bearings, so gears actually touch each other. At which point, contact area are like two mountain-ridges (one inverted) sliding & grinding against each other.  When these tips touch, intense heat & pressure is developed. ZDDP melts under such conditions and generates a tough wear-resistant ceramic-like coating at that spot to prevent further wear. 

 

With advent of API-SM oil-ratings, ZDDP amounts were reduced tremendously. Abundant reports of worn-out flat-tappet valve-trains ensued and was traced back to reduced lubrication in API-SM oils.  Several OEMs tried to debunk that but truth was out. Many folks resorted to using ZDDP additives to bring back EP/ET levels back to previous levels. Certain grades of Mobil-1 didn't get reduction in ZDDP due to being OEM fill for Porsche and BMW. They weren't going to upset those big customers no matter what government regulators have to say.

 

Moly is another lubricant and functions as small ball-bearings between surfaces. Boron is also used to enhance wear protection: https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:990746/FULLTEXT01.pdf

 

You can see in this comparison that moto-oil is much, much better for your transmission than auto-oil as it's higher in all types of boundary-layer EP/ET additives :

 

full-45634-40107-mobil10w40v4t10w40.jpg

 

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22 hours ago, Grum said:

Excellent video kbear, one I think every motorcyclist should see.

Personally have only ever used m/c specific oils for the reasons described in the video.

Don't see why you'd contemplate or risk using a car oil when there are so many excellent m/c oils out there.

As always and especially with oil! YMMV.

Be very careful Grum. You could be lumped in with the likes of me and be labeled as a trouble maker. 

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And this is the sort of stuff I would rather drain out of a cold engine verses starting the bike and pumping it all back around the engine to warm up the oil just to drain the oil.

Web capture_10-10-2021_19170_www.youtube.com.jpeg

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This all makes me wonder why we don't see all these exploded motorcycle engines along side the road from using non-motorcycle specific oil. LOL Nope, mostly hooey, and a reason to try to sell overly expensive oil to gullible folk. Bike engines now are not much different from bike engines from 20 or 30 years ago. Metallurgy is better and parts, generally, are better machined, but DOHC engines, wet clutches, and motor oil lubed gearboxes are still with us. If anything the engines are easier on their oil since the engine temps are more evenly controlled, as opposed to so many air cooled engines from the 80's.

 

Nope, just refuse to buy into it...literally. 🙂

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1 hour ago, FJ12Ryder said:

This all makes me wonder why we don't see all these exploded motorcycle engines along side the road from using non-motorcycle specific oil. LOL Nope, mostly hooey, and a reason to try to sell overly expensive oil to gullible folk. Bike engines now are not much different from bike engines from 20 or 30 years ago. Metallurgy is better and parts, generally, are better machined, but DOHC engines, wet clutches, and motor oil lubed gearboxes are still with us. If anything the engines are easier on their oil since the engine temps are more evenly controlled, as opposed to so many air cooled engines from the 80's.

 

Nope, just refuse to buy into it...literally. 🙂

Good for you FJ12Ryder! I, on the other hand, will be relegated to the category of those "gullible folk". 😎

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21 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

 

 

With advent of API-SM oil-ratings, ZDDP amounts were reduced tremendously.

 

 

Reduced zinc does not equal more wear... more zinc equals longer oil
interval protection but that is a moot point given the short oil
change intervals favored by owners... fact is in our stock engines the
majority of zinc is drained away during the oil change...

 

Quote 540Rat

So, modern low zinc oils CAN BE USED SAFELY with flat tappet cam
setups, even in engines with radical cams and high spring pressures.
Simply choose from the higher ranked oils on the list at the end of
this write-up, and you’ll be good to go. I know people who’ve been
using modern low zinc oils in High Performance flat tappet set-ups for
a long time, and they’ve had no issue at all.

 

Zinc is used/sacrificed in very small quantities at time, so the total
amount present in your oil does not change how much wear protection
the oil provides, as long as you don’t run out of zinc. “Lab Testing”
and “Wear Testing” analysis proves/confirms that more zinc provides
LONGER wear protection, NOT MORE wear protection.

 

More from Flat Tappet know it alls...

 

1. Well known and respected Engineer and Tech Author David Vizard,
whose own test data, largely based on real world engine dyno testing,
has concluded that more zinc in motor oil can be damaging, more zinc
does NOT provide todays best wear protection, and that using zinc as
the primary anti-wear component, is outdated technology.

 

2. The GM Oil Report titled, Oil Myths from GM Techlink, concluded
that high levels of zinc are damaging and that more zinc does NOT
provide more wear protection.

 

3. A motor oil research article written by Ed Hackett titled, More
than you ever wanted to know about Motor Oil, concluded that more
zinc does NOT provide more wear protection, it only provides longer
wear protection.

 

4. This from the Brad Penn Oil Company: There is such a thing as too
much ZDDP. ZDDP is surface aggressive, and too much can be a
detriment. ZDDP fights for the surface, blocking other additive
performance. Acids generated due to excessive ZDDP contact will
tie-up detergents thus encouraging corrosive wear. ZDDP
effectiveness plateaus, more does NOT translate into more protection.
Only so much is utilized. We dont need to saturate our oil with ZDDP.

 

 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

 

You can see in this comparison that moto-oil is much, much better for your transmission than auto-oil as it's higher in all types of boundary-layer EP/ET additives :

 

 

 

True but either a Auto or MC oil will meet and exceed your mileage  expectations...

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