Merits Of Abs And/or Linked Brakes In The Corners

[zRoYz]

The fact is in the future probably every bike released will have ABS which I don't like for 2 main reasons, yes the newer systems decrease the effects but still me no like.

1. In a situation that requires locking wheels & laying the bike down ABS isn't going to make that easy, I have personally had to lay a road bike down before hitting a barrier gate that with bike sliding on it's side I went under.

2. I ride allot of mountain roads that have corrugation & at warp with hard braking the ABS releases braking force over that type of surface & it can mean your in the bushes. My friend who used to own a VFR1200 had to change pants so to speak after one particular corner when this scenario happened.

I also always brake into corners when at warp it's called trail braking & is also a tool to keep front end loaded.

[V4 Rosso]

I've read guys like Nick Ienatsch who write about "briefly" locking the front wheel in these practice scenarios, but most of us aren't professional racers or stunters for whom dropping the occasional bike is just the cost of doing business. My sense is very much that most of us have only the one street motorcycle and are highly non-eager to drop the bike at 20mph in a panic-braking-gone-wrong experiment.

I've done a rider training that was focused on braking and one of the first things you had to do was to brake and briefly lock the front wheel. This was to learn that locking the front wheel does not result in a crash as long as you release the brake asap. So you don't have to be a professional stunter or racer to test the limits of the bike buy yes, it would be nice to know that in case of a mishap a sponsor will supply you with another bike in case one gets totalled

Braking while leaned over was also one of the skills tought. You had to push hard on the bike to keep it leaned over so it would not run wide. I am with cornercarver on this one: modern tires have an immense amount of grip and you can brake quite hard going into a corner as long as you are smooth and gradually load the front. I once had to put this skill into practice, in pouring rain, and the PR2s held up great.

[db79]

Auspanyol - You should not be changing gears while cornering. By doing so you are introducing an additional input and upsetting the chassis and increasing the potential for less grip and an off. The average rider should have gear selection and braking done by tip in. More advanced may trial brake up until apex to further scrub speed off and then as they begin to pick the bike back up past apex they transition from maintenance to positive throttle application.

[Auspanglish]

Auspanyol - You should not be changing gears while cornering. By doing so you are introducing an additional input and upsetting the chassis and increasing the potential for less grip and an off. The average rider should have gear selection and braking done by tip in. More advanced may trial brake up until apex to further scrub speed off and then as they begin to pick the bike back up past apex they transition from maintenance to positive throttle application.

I don't make a habit of it but I can assure you I¡ve been doing it since 7-8 years of age when it has been necessary and it's all a question of control and practice... it's actually not that hard and never has it upset my line...

Actually the biggest stuff up I ever made on a large displacement road bike was downshifting BEFORE entering a corner... back weel locked up and I ate the guardrail.

I'm not recommending it to anyone... just saying it is posible to do it smoothly... if you are a smooth operator.

Mind you I have clocked up about 625,000 km worth of experience on the asphalt over the last 25 years I have had a licence... not to mention the 10 years before that both on and off road (mostly off... my old man let me ride on the road at 15 to get to 3 day enduro events... completely ilegal mind you)... lots of track time... so, I have experimented and mastered the technique.

However I will admit: THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED TO ANYONE AND I CANNOT GUARANTEE SAFE RESULTS TO ANYONE WHO IS STUPID ENOUGH TO FOLLOW MY EXAMPLE.

[Cogswell]

Downshifting will not upset the chassis or front to rear weight bias if the throttle is blipped the instant the shift occurs to bring engine rpm up and match it to the next lower gear. While doing so, only the engine's increased RPM and tone from the exhaust will be noted - no chassis upset. I never let the clutch increase the engine's rpm while down shifting - I always do it with the throttle. It takes lots of practice but it can even be done while braking. Keith Code's video and probably others demonstrate the technique.

[Rectaltronics]

Strictly my opinion but if you're riding in the street with so little margin that mid-corner shifts are gonna screw ya', maybe it's time to take that crap off the street and onto the track.

FWIW I fully acknowledge that I should have been heeding this advice myself about 20 years ago. ;-)

[enzed_viffer]

I think it was LuvtoLeanit who stated that many with ABS who don't practice real emergency stopping procedures can be unnerved by the feedback/pulsing of the ABS taking over and actually extend their stopping distances.

That's also true of car drivers; if you've never experienced the feeling, it's easy to be freaked out by it and let up on the brakes.

[Skids]

Strictly my opinion but if you're riding in the street with so little margin that mid-corner shifts are gonna screw ya', maybe it's time to take that crap off the street and onto the track

And mine too.

We all push, especially on the fun bits of tarmac. And we all believe we have the skills to do it and are observing well, anticipating etc etc.

Until.....

[zRoYz]

Strictly my opinion but if you're riding in the street with so little margin that mid-corner shifts are gonna screw ya', maybe it's time to take that crap off the street and onto the track.

I tend to hate this type of blanket statement, you can be stationary on your bike & that is still a risk on the road. There are things you should only do closed roads & track but you can be on a road with a speed limit much higher than some corner speeds allow keeping it legal. That is what riding is about corners & shit can still happen staying within speed limits.

[Rectaltronics]

I think it was LuvtoLeanit who stated that many with ABS who don't practice real emergency stopping procedures can be unnerved by the feedback/pulsing of the ABS taking over and actually extend their stopping distances.

That's also true of car drivers; if you've never experienced the feeling, it's easy to be freaked out by it and let up on the brakes.

I think it was the CBR1000 that for a while had the weird ABS that isolated the rider's controls from the pulsing, which at least takes that little bit out of the equation.

I'm still amused that folks think you can practice emergency stopping.

You can practice hard stopping.

You won't know how you'll react in an emergency until it happens.

Strictly my opinion but if you're riding in the street with so little margin that mid-corner shifts are gonna screw ya', maybe it's time to take that crap off the street and onto the track.

I tend to hate this type of blanket statement, you can be stationary on your bike & that is still a risk on the road. There are things you should only do closed roads & track but you can be on a road with a speed limit much higher than some corner speeds allow keeping it legal. That is what riding is about corners & shit can still happen staying within speed limits.

Hate it all ya' want.

It's still true.

[CornerCarver]

I think it was LuvtoLeanit who stated that many with ABS who don't practice real emergency stopping procedures can be unnerved by the feedback/pulsing of the ABS taking over and actually extend their stopping distances.

That's also true of car drivers; if you've never experienced the feeling, it's easy to be freaked out by it and let up on the brakes.

I think it was the CBR1000 that for a while had the weird ABS that isolated the rider's controls from the pulsing, which at least takes that little bit out of the equation.

I'm still amused that folks think you can practice emergency stopping.

You can practice hard stopping.

You won't know how you'll react in an emergency until it happens.

I hope no one else is so amused that they believe that practicing emergency stops is humorous.

I don't know if you are intentionally being obtuse or if you actually believe that you cannot practice emergency stops.

Do you understand that becoming familiar with how hard you can brake, knowing that you can apply your brakes at any time to tighten your line or scrub off enough speed to avoid another vehicle or object is the first step in establishing an instinctive response that could save your life in an emergency situation?

Without a well practiced knowledge base of how to perform an emergency stop your instinct could be to stomp the rear pedal and slide into an object or it could be to grab the front so hard initially that you tuck it or you could be one of those who just stare at the object and ride right into it.

When the tiny lizard part of your brain screams DANGER you have to have an instinctive ability that you have practiced to go to if you want to increase your odds of survival or even avoiding the car/obstacle or other danger in your path.

I have cited some well known sources of trainers who teach that you can and should practice emergency stops. I will read whatever link you post that backs up your statement that it not possible to develop an emergency stop instinct through practice, that one can only practice stopping hard.

And I will again submit that unless you are lofting a rear wheel in your emergency stop practice that you are merely stopping hard and you don't really know how hard you can stop when a circumstance demands it.

[luvtoleanit]

The fact is in the future probably every bike released will have ABS which I don't like for 2 main reasons, yes the newer systems decrease the effects but still me no like.

1. In a situation that requires locking wheels & laying the bike down ABS isn't going to make that easy, I have personally had to lay a road bike down before hitting a barrier gate that with bike sliding on it's side I went under.

2. I ride allot of mountain roads that have corrugation & at warp with hard braking the ABS releases braking force over that type of surface & it can mean your in the bushes. My friend who used to own a VFR1200 had to change pants so to speak after one particular corner when this scenario happened.

I also always brake into corners when at warp it's called trail braking & is also a tool to keep front end loaded.

That second one is dead on for my riding and my local twisty roads. It is the asphalt. When I practice panic braking the VFR keeps going when I do not want it to, therefore I do not like it. Same exact spot with no abs and lbs I stop in a shorter distance. The rural roads here are NOT smooth pavement. Much of it they lay the tar/oil, then the pebbles go on. Certain sections you come across the fresh stuff and know that route is ruined for months. I made the mistake of following a novice rider (he was leading our group) through that crap one time out in BFE (had no clue where we were) and I still have the paint chips on my wheels to prove it from pebbles smacking them. Guy kept going too, I just went into first and cruised at school zone speed.

Nevertheless, nobody is going to tell me about riding my roads and asphalt when you have no experience riding there. Same goes for ABS. I've trained to control the bike myself and that's where I am most comfortable. I do not like the computer intervening where I don't want it to. I'm fine with ABS but let me have the option of turning it off. If not I don't want it on the motorcycle, period. It doesn't do well on my asphalt and that's where I spend 90% of my time riding. I am glad you brought up the surface as I failed to mention it. I'm sure on smooth road it works great. Roads aren't smooth here at all. Also why I do not run OEM tire pressures and loathe that absolute as much as I loathe blanket absolute statements about ABS.

I'm no Ricky Racer, and I'm quite sure Glory and some of the other high mileage guys would make me look silly in the corners.

[Switchblade]

I guess I do all the wrong things sometimes BUT most times I do all the right things on motorcycle.

Thing about riding mc's is there are and will always will be challenges . And I guess thats part of the riding experience . Most any person with reasonable skills can control a 4 wheeled vehicle .

[Rectaltronics]

I hope no one else is so amused that they believe that practicing emergency stops is humorous.

I don't know if you are intentionally being obtuse or if you actually believe that you cannot practice emergency stops.

Do you understand that becoming familiar with how hard you can brake, knowing that you can apply your brakes at any time to tighten your line or scrub off enough speed to avoid another vehicle or object is the first step in establishing an instinctive response that could save your life in an emergency situation?

Without a well practiced knowledge base of how to perform an emergency stop your instinct could be to stomp the rear pedal and slide into an object or it could be to grab the front so hard initially that you tuck it or you could be one of those who just stare at the object and ride right into it.

When the tiny lizard part of your brain screams DANGER you have to have an instinctive ability that you have practiced to go to if you want to increase your odds of survival or even avoiding the car/obstacle or other danger in your path.

I have cited some well known sources of trainers who teach that you can and should practice emergency stops. I will read whatever link you post that backs up your statement that it not possible to develop an emergency stop instinct through practice, that one can only practice stopping hard.

And I will again submit that unless you are lofting a rear wheel in your emergency stop practice that you are merely stopping hard and you don't really know how hard you can stop when a circumstance demands it.

I'm not giving an inch on this CornerCarver and I'm not being obtuse but perfectly literal.

Anything you can practice is a "hard" stop, not an "emergency" stop.

The practice is not without value but let's call it what it is.

Would you like me to post research links that prove the sun comes up in the morning while we're at it?

[CornerCarver]

I hope no one else is so amused that they believe that practicing emergency stops is humorous.

I don't know if you are intentionally being obtuse or if you actually believe that you cannot practice emergency stops.

Do you understand that becoming familiar with how hard you can brake, knowing that you can apply your brakes at any time to tighten your line or scrub off enough speed to avoid another vehicle or object is the first step in establishing an instinctive response that could save your life in an emergency situation?

Without a well practiced knowledge base of how to perform an emergency stop your instinct could be to stomp the rear pedal and slide into an object or it could be to grab the front so hard initially that you tuck it or you could be one of those who just stare at the object and ride right into it.

When the tiny lizard part of your brain screams DANGER you have to have an instinctive ability that you have practiced to go to if you want to increase your odds of survival or even avoiding the car/obstacle or other danger in your path.

I have cited some well known sources of trainers who teach that you can and should practice emergency stops. I will read whatever link you post that backs up your statement that it not possible to develop an emergency stop instinct through practice, that one can only practice stopping hard.

And I will again submit that unless you are lofting a rear wheel in your emergency stop practice that you are merely stopping hard and you don't really know how hard you can stop when a circumstance demands it.

I'm not giving an inch on this CornerCarver and I'm not being obtuse but perfectly literal.

Anything you can practice is a "hard" stop, not an "emergency" stop.

The practice is not without value but let's call it what it is.

Would you like me to post research links that prove the sun comes up in the morning while we're at it?

At least now we can stop wondering what the first two syllables of your screen name represent. I hope you find your cranium soon before you need it for a practice emergency stop.

[fink]

Potato -potato, Tomato-tomato.

Emergency stop- Hard stop. Basically you are both wanting to stop at your chosen point as quickly as possible in as short a distance as possible.

Same thing just different terminology.

In the literal world ,yes, you cant really practice "emergencies" but you can practice "emergency" scenarios.

" Rectaltronics: You won't know how you'll react in an emergency till it happens"

You will if you practice emergency scenarios and apply critical thinking.

"Corner Carver: And I will again submit that unless you are lofting a rear wheel in your emergency stop practice that you are merely stopping hard and you don't really know how hard you can stop When a circumstance demands it".

Again yes correct in some ways, with regards to the amount of pressure on front brake. But as soon as that rear wheel is at the point of lifting (it will start skidding before it lifts with most folk ) you should be thinking about a weight shift rear as when it starts to lift you are reducing your maximum braking capacity and increasing your stopping distance.

I agree with Skids comment too.

[Duc2V4]

I get what Recal is saying, in that until you are in an emergency situation, where your brain reacts to the situation based on survival instincts, you can't truly practice an emergency situation. HOWEVER, I have to agree with CornerCarver, you need to build the muscle memory and feel what your bike will do when in a emergency braking situation. For instance, if while braking hard you feel the bike is doing something that makes you feel even more uncomfortable or that you're unfamiliar with, you will most likely release the brakes thinking you're going to crash before you actually hit the object you're trying to avoid.

Muscle memory, as I see it, is why I (we) ride with two fingers on the brake and clutch, so when we see or feel the need to react to something, our fingers are already at work. Although I do practice hard stopping I have not done the emergency stopping that CC speaks of, something I know I should be doing!

[timm]

You plan a hard stop.

You can not plan an emergency stop.

By trying out hard braking you learn your mind how things work technically. How you should do and how different help-systems work (ABS, TC etc.)

In an emergency, hopefully, your dinosaur mind can use some of this knowledge and muscle memory to do the hard braking during the emergency stop as good as it gets.

During an emergency most of us react by autonomous reflexes, so called survival reactions. By knowing them you can maybe counterfeit some of them, since survival reactions can make the situation more dangerous. (Such as your body freezes up, your eyes are focusing at the the danger/oncoming car/side of the road etc. etc. This you don't want to...)

My hypothesis is that if you know good how your bike is reacting in different situations and how you should handle it, you elevate the level of were your body defines "emergency". Thus making you more in control of the situation by lowering the amount of survival reactions.

[wagzhp]

I get what Recal is saying, in that until you are in an emergency situation, where your brain reacts to the situation based on survival instincts, you can't truly practice an emergency situation. HOWEVER, I have to agree with CornerCarver, you need to build the muscle memory and feel what your bike will do when in a emergency braking situation. For instance, if while braking hard you feel the bike is doing something that makes you feel even more uncomfortable or that you're unfamiliar with, you will most likely release the brakes thinking you're going to crash before you actually hit the object you're trying to avoid.

Muscle memory, as I see it, is why I (we) ride with two fingers on the brake and clutch, so when we see or feel the need to react to something, our fingers are already at work. Although I do practice hard stopping I have not done the emergency stopping that CC speaks of, something I know I should be doing!

Yep, I still remember the 1st time I brought the rear tire up while practicing emergency stops. My feet came off the pegs, my eyes were as big as saucers, my heart skipped a couple of beats, and I released the brake lever like it was on fire! The rear time came back down with a thud and the instructor said "That's how you find the limit! Next time just relax your grip on the lever and it will come down nice and smooth". He had to tell me that about 6 times before I could force my hand to comply. After the 2nd try I managed to keep my feet on the pegs, and on the 7th try I was able to manage an unsettled plunk of the rear tire instead of the previous thuds.

Every season, when practicing emergency stops, starts out nearly the same. The feet stay on the pegs now, but I let go of the lever like it's on fire. It takes several attempts before I get used to the sensation, and can control the instinct to release all pressure.

Earlier this year all of that practicing payed off. One day the morning commute traffic was unusually ugly, with lots of stopping and jack-rabbit starting. The driver in the pickup truck in front of me was having a really hard time gauging things, so I was giving him what I thought was plenty of space, until he just stood on his brakes... Not immediately realizing how hard he was stopping I had to squeeze, and keep squeezing, squeeze some more and then really torque down on the lever, resulting in a impressive stoppie. But more importantly, not resulting with the bike in the back of his truck. If I hadn't known how hard i could brake that morning, I'm sure I would have become a statistic.

Everyone that rides on the street needs to know where the limits are and needs to be able to stop hard enough to raise the rear tire. It doesn't need to be a stunt worthy 3 foot high rear tire stoppie, and that is neither recommended nor correct. But lofting the rear tire a couple of inches is the only way to get maximum stopping power. Anything less is just slowing down.

[Rectaltronics]

At least now we can stop wondering what the first two syllables of your screen name represent. I hope you find your cranium soon before you need it for a practice emergency stop.

Descent into insults. Nice work Carver!

Except for the "critical thinking" remark, fink seems to get it. Duc2V4 and timm totally get it and timm's response is spot-on.

For what its worth I never, ever said that practicing hard braking, threshold braking, whatever, was without value and I also never discounted the importance of establishing the muscle memory aspect of the practice.

But that's still not emergency braking. Emergency braking is what happens in emergencies. What has been said about "lizard brain", etc. is very important and it wraps is back around to the actual subject here, which is the merits of ABS, if not pertinent specifically to cornering.

When the fight/flight response kicks in, which it does long before you instinctively reach for the brakes and before you're even conscious of what's happening, the chemical part of this process will affect the control you have over your muscles, "muscle memory" or not.

Maybe you'll be fairly fortunate and it'll just be a nice buck appearing in front of you on your favorite and familiar piece of twisty asphalt and you'll confidently know exactly what to do. That fight/flight response might not even really kick in fully! Or, that will be happening while your tires are traversing a chemical spill, or rainwater, or sand, or any other number of pavement dangers that you may not have done a good enough job of covering when you were doing your braking drills, or that simply require more smoothness and precision than normal.

Oh, no doubt your limbs and digits will be in the right place and doing the right thing but the question is how well they will be doing it over the mystery traction of the moment. Hopefully the practice will help you maintain at least some prowess but if and when that time comes, how much of that prowess will be maintained is anyone's guess. When that adrenaline-fueled departure of finesse would have had your front wheel tuck and you instead feel that weird shuddering in the brake controls, that's when you're likely to be happy that you opted for the ABS.

The braking practice that you do in a non-emergency situation is not the same as emergency braking. It's not just semantics. The super ninja skills that you develop during braking drills that might allow you to out-perform a modern ABS by a couple of feet in known conditions are going to be subdued or maybe even largely obliterated by adrenaline. That's a fact. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can so completely rely upon that practice, that when the worst possible moment comes along you can still reliably out-perform ABS. God bless you if you're really that good but it simply ain't likely for most mere mortals. It'll help for sure. But you won't know how much until long after you've made the choice about ABS.

[Switchblade]

For me I practice my landing. The object for me is to land on my feet , sometimes I have to adjust and roll so as to not break my neck.

It's all good and I love my ABS brakes.

[CornerCarver]

At least now we can stop wondering what the first two syllables of your screen name represent. I hope you find your cranium soon before you need it for a practice emergency stop.

Descent into insults. Nice work Carver!

You win the internet.

I am out on this topic and I never debated the efficacy of ABS and only joined the conversation when the subject of not using your brakes in a corner and of trail braking being only for advanced riders came up. Those misconceptions can get fellow riders hurt and I wanted to offer a differing opinion from well known instructors who believe the opposite is true.

Your descent into insults by suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you should read some "research links that proves the sun comes up in the morning" was all I needed to recognize your semantic argument was just for arguments sake.

It is not my intent to get everyone to agree with me or to pick your side or my side but to offer thought provoking evidence of a better way to brake and a safer way to ride. If the reader of the thread has an open mind they can discern for themselves what works for them and what doesn't when it comes to braking while cornering and practicing braking at the limits of your bikes/tires capabilities.

[VFRpilot]

Many talk about stopping from higher speeds in this thread. Unless there is a wall that suddenly appears, stopping is not the point in unplanned brake use. It is slowing at a fast rate while maintaining positional control or your machine. You cannot steer to avoid an obstacle if you lock your wheels and in an emergency, your instincts are to squeeze more than you should. If you cannot overcome this, ABS does it for you. With ABS, squeeze all you got and look for an out, it may be between lanes or to the left or right.. 2 of my 4 Hondas are linked ABS, one is just linked the the other is a 3rd Gen VFR with neither. I ride them all the same way, but in an unplanned event, I'd rather have the ABS working and retaining control of the bike. Especially in Pacific NorthWet where I live.

[Rectaltronics]

You win the internet.

I am out on this topic and I never debated the efficacy of ABS and only joined the conversation when the subject of not using your brakes in a corner and of trail braking being only for advanced riders came up. Those misconceptions can get fellow riders hurt and I wanted to offer a differing opinion from well known instructors who believe the opposite is true.

Your descent into insults by suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you should read some "research links that proves the sun comes up in the morning" was all I needed to recognize your semantic argument was just for arguments sake.

It is not my intent to get everyone to agree with me or to pick your side or my side but to offer thought provoking evidence of a better way to brake and a safer way to ride. If the reader of the thread has an open mind they can discern for themselves what works for them and what doesn't when it comes to braking while cornering and practicing braking at the limits of your bikes/tires capabilities.

The Internet sucks. Can I get a better prize??

You're confusing insults with, I don't know, maybe ridicule?. Either you mis-read or mis-interpreted the statement in question. To be perfectly clear: I'm unimpressed when people rely on demands for links to research when they find something that is difficult to accept. Makes me wonder how discussions went with those folks pre-Internet. In the future if you find something difficult to accept, find reputable research that specifically contradicts it and post that and then we (or whomever) can have days of fun with link wars which will accomplish nothing beyond completely wasting respective resources.

As for trail-braking and the like, it's interesting that the opinions - opinions from well-known and respected sources in the field - vary wildly on things like that, or covering the brake lever, etc. Hopefully readers can make the most of those opinions and more importantly, the reasoning behind them, and make the choices that work best for them.

Ride safe,

Brad

Many talk about stopping from higher speeds in this thread. Unless there is a wall that suddenly appears, stopping is not the point in unplanned brake use. It is slowing at a fast rate while maintaining positional control or your machine. You cannot steer to avoid an obstacle if you lock your wheels and in an emergency, your instincts are to squeeze more than you should. If you cannot overcome this, ABS does it for you. With ABS, squeeze all you got and look for an out, it may be between lanes or to the left or right.. 2 of my 4 Hondas are linked ABS, one is just linked the the other is a 3rd Gen VFR with neither. I ride them all the same way, but in an unplanned event, I'd rather have the ABS working and retaining control of the bike. Especially in Pacific NorthWet where I live.

So this brings up an interesting question...

How many folks practice steering while threshold braking??

Most bikes tend to stand up pretty hard under braking. Add to that the usual panic -amplified target fixation and it takes a lot more than the MSF BRC to deal with all this effectively.

[timm]

So this brings up an interesting question...

How many folks practice steering while threshold braking??

Most bikes tend to stand up pretty hard under braking. Add to that the usual panic -amplified target fixation and it takes a lot more than the MSF BRC to deal with all this effectively.

I was tought to first brake real damn hard, to get the speed down as fast and much as possible. While so, look for an "exit". Then release the brake and do a hard countersteer towards the "exit" to go around the obstacle or whatever.

Physics is making it hard to steer while braking, just as you say. It is possible though, but dangerous since you risk to overuse the friction of the fronttyre and have pretty much no weight (grip) on the rear.

Some newer bikes are having a refined "cornering ABS" that should make it possible to do a violent, threshold brake while steering. It would be interesting to try one of those bikes.