Best Way For Better Front Brakes?

[KanadianKen]

And don't say "buy a new bike"!

Just tossing around the notion of improving the brakes on the VFR. I'll change out the current pads to fresh EBC HH but long term - is there a common VFR (6th Gen) swap / suggestion to consider?

Ideas and examples welcome. I have no plans to sell this bike so "dreaming" about mods is the protocol.

Thanks.

[CornerCarver]

Ken,

Your VFR is 11-12 years old now. The second generation CBS is quite good.

While I do love the Superhawk lowers and RC51 master/calipers on MiniCarvers 5th gen (the equivalent for you would be F4i and RC parts) I think you can really have an amazing set of brakes for your bike by switching to stainless lines and giving the calipers a once over.

Have the rotors bead blasted and flush the system. The pneumatic brake bleeding system from Harbor Freight is worth double the money for bleeding a linked brake system (IIRC it is about $24USD).

Keep a large zip tie (you know anyone who carries those?) on the bike to slip over your brake lever/throttle every time you park it for the night.

When properly bled a VFR is hard stopping beast as opposed to a hard to stop beast.

[kebrider]

Pretty sure the VFR brakes have about as much outright stopping power as the chassis can handle so the only thing you might get with more powerful brakes is a lighter touch. I get the back end off the ground occasionally when I'm on a "serious" dragon run and I can't count how many times I've made hard mid corner stops when leaned over and I always marvel at how balanced the brakes are between feel and power. Not 2 finger all the time but if you have the grip 6th gen brakes will get you stopped as quick as the bike can handle.

YMMV

I got over 20K out of my original front pads so win/win on 6th gen brakes for me.

KEB

[KanadianKen]

Donald at Platinum Motorsprts has the braided line kits for around $200 and will install them at his shop for you ,

.I can help with caliper rebuild if you can hold the light .Let me know if you want to tackle this little job sometime .

I'd forgotten all about Platinum! Thanks Jim- I'll look into his offering of ss brake lines. Thanks for the offer to help with the callipers - I hold a mean flashlight!

Ken,

I know it's not a VFR but I felt a huge difference when I swapped out the rubber lines for stainless steel lines on my 6R. I left everything else stock and it took far less lever pressure and I had much better feel. The rubber lines still expand radially a little.. this takes away some "feeling" from the brakes as the rubber essentially damps out feedback and absorbs some of the force that's supposed to go to the calipers.

Thanks Andy - I'm on it! Ss lines first thing I'm going to secure.

Ken,

Your VFR is 11-12 years old now. The second generation CBS is quite good.

While I do love the Superhawk lowers and RC51 master/calipers on MiniCarvers 5th gen (the equivalent for you would be F4i and RC parts) I think you can really have an amazing set of brakes for your bike by switching to stainless lines and giving the calipers a once over.

Have the rotors bead blasted and flush the system. The pneumatic brake bleeding system from Harbor Freight is worth double the money for bleeding a linked brake system (IIRC it is about $24USD).

Keep a large zip tie (you know anyone who carries those?) on the bike to slip over your brake lever/throttle every time you park it for the night.

When properly bled a VFR is hard stopping beast as opposed to a hard to stop beast.

Keith I have a vacuum pump as you suggested. I've even used it! Ss lines- check, rotor bead blast - looking into that, fresh pads and fluid - you bet.

Zip ties yes - I have several hundred thousand at my disposal! One is on the brake lever right now.

I'll need to either find someone local to me in the Toronto area that can rebuild calipers - I've replaced calipers on cars - but never rebuilt or "gone through them" - I wouldn't know where to start? Perhaps I'll search our How To section and see whats involved.

I don't know your mechanical ability, but rebuilding calipers is not that difficult. It involves replacing seals and cleaning the pistons and bores. There are guides on youtube. On my wing, I used aluminum foil to polish the pistons and down into the bores after I got the crud out. It was not difficult, just time consuming.

Thanks for the nudge! I'll look into that!

[thefleshrocket]

I'm frankly surprised at all of the people suggesting EBC HH pads. Yeah, they are usually better than stock, but they are mediocre pads, at best.

The two pad compounds I love the best are the Vesrah SRJL-17 and the Dunlopad HH. Both have very strong initial bite, even when cold, great overall stopping power, give off almost no dust, and last just about forever.

I don't know if either compound is available for the VFR because I've been content with whatever pads are on my 5th gen now. But if you're interested, ask and I'll do a little research.

'99 VFR800, '08 1125R, '06 1050, '91 F2, '03 DRZ400

[eastbowl2]

I'm curious about the suggestion to zip-tie the brake during periods of inactivity. Can someone elaborate?

[thefleshrocket]

Also, I'm skeptical of braided steel lines. My 1125R and Speed Triple have factory steel lines and my F2 has aftermarket steel lines, but I've ridden bikes with rubber hoses that have brakes that feel just as stout as any of my steel-line-equipped bikes.

That's not to say I don't think steel lines have merit, just that I would recommend switching to grippy pads before I'd decide that the lines need to be upgraded.

'99 VFR800, '08 1125R, '06 1050, '91 F2, '03 DRZ400

[FJ12Ryder]

Skeptical of steel lines and HH pads? Dude you need to get out more. If you've ever gone from rubber to steel without changing anything else, you'd be a believer. I've done the conversion on both of my present bikes and the difference is night and day. HH pads are far from mediocre too. I've used Dunlopad in the past and was never overly impressed, not like the HH. The stock pads on the VFR are great but the HH pads are just better. Having ridden many bikes the VFR IMO has excellent brakes made even better by stainless brake lines and HH pads.

[CornerCarver]

I'm curious about the suggestion to zip-tie the brake during periods of inactivity. Can someone elaborate?

The zip tie around the throttle/brake lever allow bubbles to happily rise back up into the reservoir during periods of between rides instead of trapping air in the lines and making the brakes feel spongy.

[CornerCarver]

Also, I'm skeptical of braided steel lines. My 1125R and Speed Triple have factory steel lines and my F2 has aftermarket steel lines, but I've ridden bikes with rubber hoses that have brakes that feel just as stout as any of my steel-line-equipped bikes. That's not to say I don't think steel lines have merit, just that I would recommend switching to grippy pads before I'd decide that the lines need to be upgraded. '99 VFR800, '08 1125R, '06 1050, '91 F2, '03 DRZ400

As new rubber lines are okay. 12 year old rubber lines and spongy and will expand quite a bit under braking.

Stock Honda VFR pads are of an HH compound and sourced from a few OEM suppliers based on availability and cost. Some may even be Dunlop. I always use EBC and have never been disappointed.

I guess I could wish for less brake dust....

[timmythecop]

I'm curious about the suggestion to zip-tie the brake during periods of inactivity. Can someone elaborate?

The zip tie around the throttle/brake lever allow bubbles to happily rise back up into the reservoir during periods of between rides instead of trapping air in the lines and making the brakes feel spongy.

do you have a zip tie mod that allows an adventure report thread to rise to the top? Speaking of zip ties, somebody remind me before the next ride and I will bring a handful of flex-cuffs.

[Switchblade]

Yeah flex-cuffs and there reuseable..

[timmythecop]

no, no. Flex cuffs have to be cut off.

[AndyB]

I'll need to either find someone local to me in the Toronto area that can rebuild calipers - I've replaced calipers on cars - but never rebuilt or "gone through them" - I wouldn't know where to start? Perhaps I'll search our How To section and see whats involved.

I don't know your mechanical ability, but rebuilding calipers is not that difficult. It involves replacing seals and cleaning the pistons and bores. There are guides on youtube. On my wing, I used aluminum foil to polish the pistons and down into the bores after I got the crud out. It was not difficult, just time consuming.

Aluminum foil? Why did you use that as opposed to a scotch brite pad?

I used something like a scotch brite pad first and then used the aluminum foil as a final polish. Gets them nice and smooth. It is a common recommendation on old wing sites. I also used it to smooth the vacuum slide throats on the carbs. Makes everything slide real nice.

[thefleshrocket]

Skeptical of steel lines and HH pads? Dude you need to get out more. If you've ever gone from rubber to steel without changing anything else, you'd be a believer. I've done the conversion on both of my present bikes and the difference is night and day.

I used to make steel lines and EBC HH one of the first upgrades I'd do to a new bike, but when I rode a bike with Vesrah SRJL-17 pads and realized how much better the brakes felt, I changed my upgrade path.I submit that if you changed from rubber to steel lines and the difference was "night and day", then something was wrong with the original setup. Maybe the fluid was low or contaminated, maybe the system needed to be bled, or maybe the stock lines really had decayed. The next time you decide to upgrade to steel lines, flush and bleed your system first to get a better baseline. I bet the difference won't be nearly as dramatic once you switch to steel lines.

HH pads are far from mediocre too. I've used Dunlopad in the past and was never overly impressed, not like the HH.

Dunlopad, like most brake manufacturers, makes a handful of pad compounds with differing characteristics. Their HH+ pads are phenomenal. If you thought EBC was better than Dunlopad, then you weren't using the HH+ compound.Neither Dunlopad nor Vesrah make pads in their best compounds for my Speed Triple so I went with the RJL pads. They perform comparably to the EBC HH pads--better than stock but not hugely so. Cold bite is moderate (compared to mild for stock), and stopping power improves somewhat with heat but not a lot. By comparison, the HH+ or SRJL-17 have impressive cold bite and stopping power--getting them hot doesn't make a noticeable improvement in performance. That's what I want--pads that are nice and grippy right after I pull out of my driveway, not requiring a few stops to improve.'99 VFR800, '08 1125R, '06 1050, '91 F2, '03 DRZ400

I guess I could wish for less brake dust....

The Dunlopad HH+ and Vesrah SRJL-17 are highly metallic and create negligible dust. The only potential drawback (other than being more expensive) is that they might be harsher on rotors than softer pads.'99 VFR800, '08 1125R, '06 1050, '91 F2, '03 DRZ400

Somehow that all became one big post-- it started as 2!'99 VFR800, '08 1125R, '06 1050, '91 F2, '03 DRZ400

[eastbowl2]

I'm curious about the suggestion to zip-tie the brake during periods of inactivity. Can someone elaborate?

(Sorry, in editing this post to make it shorter - for all the mobile users - I screwed it up and made it worse. I am responding to CornerCarver's post answering my initial question (which is above). His response is immediately below. My follow up question is at the bottom.

From CornerCarver:

The zip tie around the throttle/brake lever allow bubbles to happily rise back up into the reservoir during periods of between rides instead of trapping air in the lines and making the brakes feel spongy.

My follow-up:

Thanks for the elaboration. I'll give it a try.

I'm still curious though about why that would happen? Or, in other words, why wouldn't the bubbles happily rise to the reservoir during normal brake application? I'm not doubting your suggestion, as I have no knowledge on this. As I say, just curious.

I hope this isn't too off topic. If so, kindly ignore.

[Switchblade]

no, no. Flex cuffs have to be cut off.

Oops the last time I was XXXXX ..

[thefleshrocket]

The zip tie brake lever trick doesn't work on my 1125R. What does work is using a screwdriver to force the brake pads back into the caliper. After doing so, the brake lever is firmer and engages earlier in the travel-- for a few hundred miles or so. Then, I do the pad trick again.

'99 VFR800, '08 1125R, '06 1050, '91 F2, '03 DRZ400

[BusyLittleShop]

Go nuts with your brake upgrades ... its cheaper than a new bike...

Ferodo Ceramic Matrix Composite Front Disc... $2,300

BLS Magnesium radial caliper mounts... $1,000

Brembo billet radial Front Calipers... $1,500

Brembo radial Front Brake master cylinder $275

[Switchblade]

The zip tie brake lever trick doesn't work on my 1125R. What does work is using a screwdriver to force the brake pads back into the caliper. After doing so, the brake lever is firmer and engages earlier in the travel-- for a few hundred miles or so. Then, I do the pad trick again. '99 VFR800, '08 1125R, '06 1050, '91 F2, '03 DRZ400

I have done this trick with a screw driver on mine it does work .....

[V4 Rosso]

I'm still curious though about why that would happen? Or, in other words, why wouldn't the bubbles happily rise to the reservoir during normal brake application?

It is because the bubbles get smaller once compressed and smaller bubbles travel through fluid with less resistance get around obstacles (joints, bends etc.) more easily. Still it takes quite some time for the bubbles to reach the master cilinder, a lot longer than it takes to slwo the bike down from 300+ to a standstill. I prefer to just do a good brake bleeding once in a while instead of keeping all the rubbers of the brake system under constant pressure.

Another reason I can think of why why people put a zip tie around the lever is that brake systems with remote reserevoirs are half open systems where moisture easily gets into contact with the hygroscopic brake fluid. With the lever pulled in the brake fluid in the brake hoses and callipers is seperated from the brake fluid in the reservoir. The VFR fluid reservoirs have a bladder on top to prevent the fluid to get into contact with moist air.

[eastbowl2]

I'm still curious though about why that would happen? Or, in other words, why wouldn't the bubbles happily rise to the reservoir during normal brake application?

It is because the bubbles get smaller once compressed and smaller bubbles travel through fluid with less resistance get around obstacles (joints, bends etc.) more easily. Still it takes quite some time for the bubbles to reach the master cilinder, a lot longer than it takes to slwo the bike down from 300+ to a standstill. I prefer to just do a good brake bleeding once in a while instead of keeping all the rubbers of the brake system under constant pressure.

Another reason I can think of why why people put a zip tie around the lever is that brake systems with remote reserevoirs are half open systems where moisture easily gets into contact with the hygroscopic brake fluid. With the lever pulled in the brake fluid in the brake hoses and callipers is seperated from the brake fluid in the reservoir. The VFR fluid reservoirs have a bladder on top to prevent the fluid to get into contact with moist air.

Thanks for the explanation.

[CornerCarver]

I'm still curious though about why that would happen? Or, in other words, why wouldn't the bubbles happily rise to the reservoir during normal brake application?

...

Another reason I can think of why why people put a zip tie around the lever is that brake systems with remote reserevoirs are half open systems where moisture easily gets into contact with the hygroscopic brake fluid. With the lever pulled in the brake fluid in the brake hoses and callipers is seperated from the brake fluid in the reservoir. The VFR fluid reservoirs have a bladder on top to prevent the fluid to get into contact with moist air.

as do the plastic remote reservoirs...

[KanadianKen]

Well - for what its worth - I've taken some advice from members and have ordered SS Brake lines (Galfer) for entire system and comes with a SS Clutch hose. Also ordered SpeedBleeders from Tightwad. Have new EBC HH pads ready to go on the front.

Prior to doing the brake line swap - I should investigate buying "rebuild parts" for the calipers so I can go through those. As mentioned - I've NO CLUE what that entails - so I've got some edjamacating to do!

I've found a place close to my home that does the bead blasting - so I'll take the rotors there and see what they can do to "de-glaze" them.

ALl for now!

[YoshiHNS]

Caliper rebuilds are pretty straightforward. The hardest part will be getting the pistons out if you can't push them out with the fluid or air. The rest is just elbow grease.

[BusyLittleShop]

I'm curious about the suggestion to zip-tie the brake during periods of inactivity. Can someone elaborate?

As you can see in the drawings the zip tie suggestion doesn't

accomplish much because as you squeeze the lever the piston blocks the

path of bubbles (blue) from reaching the reservoir... but if you leave

the lever at rest the piston retracts enough to uncover the port so

the bubbles (blue) can travel all the way to the reservoir...