Jump to content

Stator Tests


chris2992
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Member Contributer

gallery_4338_1246_71511.jpg

I have been having lots of problems tring to figure out what is wrong with my charging system. Thought it was the RR, wasn't. Thought it was the battery, wasn't. Thought it was the wiring, wasn't. Thought it was the stator, wasn't ..................... But wait, maybe it is.

Lets get all the facts on the table.

Battery Voltage = 12.3v

Charging voltage at Idle = 13.2v

Charging voltage at 5k rpm = 12.1v and lower as time goes on.

Resistance between battery ground and frame ground = 0.1 ohm

Resistance between all 3 legs of the stator = 0.3 - 0.4 ohm

Continuity between all 3 legs and ground = none

AC voltage from stator (with rr Unpluged) at idle = 19.6v

AC voltage from stator (with rr unpluged) at 5k rpm = 65v

AC voltage from stator (with rr pluged in) at idle = 11.2v

AC voltage from stator (with rr pluged in) at 5k rpm = 4.2v

DC voltage at the battery side of the +/- rr Connector = Identical to battery voltage (Bike off = 12.3v / Bike running = 13.2v @ idle, 12.1v @ 5k rpm)

DC voltage at the RR side of the +/- RR connector (connector unpluged, measured directly across the red and green wire) at idle = 0.9v - 1.1v

DC voltage at the RR side of the +/- RR connector (connector unpluged, measured directly across the red and green wire) at 5k rpm = 0v - 0.1v

Static tests of the stator, it checks out fine. However, under a load it seems to show its failure. Also, something that I have noticed is that as the bike warms up, the problem gets worse. Is this normal, and is it the stator, or possiably the flywheel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Resistance between all 3 legs of the stator = 0.3 - 0.4 ohm

is that correct , i was thiking it should be more like 1kohm between the wires, but I could be wrong

if you charge the battery will it charge to 13 volt , and sitting idle for couple hours still hold above 12.7, if it wont that's a weak battery

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Battery is brand new, My battery tender holds directly at 12v. I had just taken it off the tender, so that explains the low voltage.

As for the resistance between the legs, honda says that it should be between 0.1 - 1.0 ohm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
Battery is brand new, My battery tender holds directly at 12v. I had just taken it off the tender, so that explains the low voltage.

As for the resistance between the legs, honda says that it should be between 0.1 - 1.0 ohm.

ANY charging system for 12v, charges at least 13.6v and your charged battery should read at least 12.6v. so i am wondering as to the condition of your meter. as for heat affecting readings, MOST DIFFINATELY. the R/R spends most of its life cooking off extra amperage. heat is what kills the R/R. the stator can be over heated also. a cold stator can test fine but when heated wires may be shorting within that loop causing low output on that leg and not show any reading to ground. you certainly did your homework and complete checks. not cheap but i would change both R/R and stator. best..........

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When i had my epiphany about the wiring last weekend, i didn't mention something because most people don't have one.

There is a device called a megger, this an ohm meter that outputs high voltage and alot more current than a simple multimeter. The multimeter is fine for 90% of checking, the megger will help to find bad continuity where a multimeter will not.

I would venture to say it is still a wiring issue, unless you have soldered all connections and totally cleaned your grounds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been having lots of problems tring to figure out what is wrong with my charging system. Thought it was the RR, wasn't. Thought it was the battery, wasn't. Thought it was the wiring, wasn't. Thought it was the stator, wasn't ..................... But wait, maybe it is.

Lets get all the facts on the table.

Battery Voltage = 12.3v

Charging voltage at Idle = 13.2v

Charging voltage at 5k rpm = 12.1v and lower as time goes on.

Resistance between battery ground and frame ground = 0.1 ohm

Resistance between all 3 legs of the stator = 0.3 - 0.4 ohm

Continuity between all 3 legs and ground = none

AC voltage from stator (with rr Unpluged) at idle = 19.6v

AC voltage from stator (with rr unpluged) at 5k rpm = 65v

AC voltage from stator (with rr pluged in) at idle = 11.2v

AC voltage from stator (with rr pluged in) at 5k rpm = 4.2v

DC voltage at the battery side of the +/- rr Connector = Identical to battery voltage (Bike off = 12.3v / Bike running = 13.2v @ idle, 12.1v @ 5k rpm)

DC voltage at the RR side of the +/- RR connector (connector unpluged, measured directly across the red and green wire) at idle = 0.9v - 1.1v

DC voltage at the RR side of the +/- RR connector (connector unpluged, measured directly across the red and green wire) at 5k rpm = 0v - 0.1v

Static tests of the stator, it checks out fine. However, under a load it seems to show its failure. Also, something that I have noticed is that as the bike warms up, the problem gets worse. Is this normal, and is it the stator, or possiably the flywheel.

I started the other thread on 5th gen charging problems a couple of days ago so I'm interested in your results. At first, from your description I would have thought that you had a second bad rr given that your voltage from the stator seems good until it's attached to a load but I found this snippet of information on a BMW site. It originally came from the Electrex site but doesn't seem to be there any longer and coincidentally, refers to VFRs! Anyway, after reading it, I think you should replace your stator and unfortunately, possibly your your rr as well as it appears that a failing stator will take out the regulator. Here's the quote.

<<VRF Regulator Rectifier Basics

Inside there is a six diode full wave rectifier, and every phase input can be switched to ground through a thyristor. The thyristors are switched by a regulator circuit that measures the DC output voltage. We call this a shunting regulator. It is a very simple system, and doesn't work very efficiently. But it does the job while not dissipating too much heat. That is why most OEM manufacturers still use this setup.

First of all the regulator relies on it's heatsink. That in itself is not bad , as long as there is good thermal contact between the diodes and thyristors inside the unit to the housing, and as long as there is a good airflow.

Quite often when a regulator/rectifier fails, a new one will fail after a fairly short time. It is a recurring problem (not on all bikes, but has been seen quite often). The stator has 18 poles, 6 per phase. Each pole has (I don't know exactly) about 20 turns of copper wire on it. Between the phase outputs of a delta wound system you will have 120 turns. Because of the hot spot in the engine, the copper winding's insulation starts to fail after some time. Most likely that will be somewhere from one layer of windings to the next layer on a pole. This usually happens only under load and when the unit is hot. Imagine a few of these shorts in between the phase outputs. You will have not 120 turns but say 50 or 60. The complete charging system will still be able to reach 14.4 V DC, it is rated for about 400W.

When you have a transformer with only a few thick windings, you will get a low voltage but higher current output. The same happens in the VFR Delta stator. Those 60 turns will give a much lower Vac but a much higher Iac. And diodes in regulator/rectifiers don't like high currents. If they are rated for 35 Amps, as most diodes are in this application, they can handle that whenever they get sufficient cooling.

When they run hot, the max current they can handle drops down quite a bit, which makes dissipate even more heat, and finally one of the diodes fails! Electrex stators are wound in star. The total power output is about the same as the original (lower Iac times higher Vac makes about the same... I know this is simplified, there is more to it....). But there are always two phases in between the phase connections. (=240 turns) The Vac is higher, and the Iac is lower. Even if there would be a short in between some layers of turns (I haven't seen that happen) you still wouldn't have the current output of the original stator, which is what destroys regulator diodes.

So far this is still unproven, but seems correct. It is difficult to prove, as you need to check the original stator for shorted windings whenever the systems is under load, and very hot. And it doesn't need to do it all the time even! Bikes that have had a few failing RR's stopped frying them after replacing the stator.

One last thing:

Problem #3:The output of the Voltage Regulator/Rectifier (VRR) is fed through the wiring loom and some sort of junction box to the battery. Make sure you have perfect connections here. I found a number of problems with voltage drops over these lines. Check the fault finding chart on http://www.electrexusa.com. It will guide you through the process. The best thing to do, if you see any voltage drops in between the VRR and battery (we are talking high current here, so any bad connection will give a significant voltage drop) is to feed the output of the VRR straight to the battery terminals using a (good quality) inline fuse.>>

Hope this is helpful to everyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Just had mine in to the dealer for a couple of issues. One was I pointed out that 30A main fuse/holder looked burnt. When he checked my elect. system he said my RR was bad. Replaced under extended warr'ty. He then check voltages off/idle/ 5000 RPM etc. and they were stilll a little low. He ended up replacing both main cables/harnesses to the battery neg & pos.. This brought up to spec. the voltages.

Good luck.

Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Thanks Cooter. I have heard bad things on eletrex products, so I won't be using them. But You saw where I had spoken of Ricks Motorsport Electronics, I am going to call their CS office today and speek with them about my problem and see what they have to say. I'll probably just have them re-wind my stator and possiably run some diagnostic tests on my rr.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Cooter. I have heard bad things on eletrex products, so I won't be using them. But You saw where I had spoken of Ricks Motorsport Electronics, I am going to call their CS office today and speek with them about my problem and see what they have to say. I'll probably just have them re-wind my stator and possiably run some diagnostic tests on my rr.

I too, haven't heard great things about Electrex and wasn't suggesting their products. After reading your post and having my own issues, I really started digging around to try to learn how exactly the various components of the charging sytem worked. There is a fair amount of information out there (I was searching motorcycle voltage regulator design). The article I quoted was the first explanation that made sense as to why a stator would test OK in one circumstance and not another or in my case why the stator shows low output but continues to function in the system (it is failing slowly). I ran across another tech article from an old bike magazine that said that this type of charging systen design is so flawed (the 2 piece design of a stator mounted off the end of the crank relying on oil for cooling and a seperate rr) that it really can't be expected to last much more than 20,000 mi. It is still in wide use on sportbikes because of it's cheap to produce, light weight and compact. Here's the link www.reptilesmagazine.com/mcn/technical/MCNdec05charging.pdf

Don't ask me why it's in a Reptilesmagazine link, the page says it's from Motorcycle Consumer News, ah the mysteries of the internet! Please post your outcome with a Rick's rewind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Forum CEO

I am more concerned with the voltage dropping from idle to 5k rpm! That would indicate a bad RR! If you really concerend about the Stator take the thing out of the engine case and inspect it, I had one fail - deep fried it! My engine overheated once cause the fan wasnt working, that contributed to the stator failure. Mine was pretty bad!

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3016

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
I have been having lots of problems tring to figure out what is wrong with my charging system. Thought it was the RR, wasn't. Thought it was the battery, wasn't. Thought it was the wiring, wasn't. Thought it was the stator, wasn't ..................... But wait, maybe it is.

Lets get all the facts on the table.

Battery Voltage = 12.3v

Charging voltage at Idle = 13.2v

Charging voltage at 5k rpm = 12.1v and lower as time goes on.

Mr.RC45 shows the same voltages at the same rpms... I've gone through extensive trouble shoot procedures and even changed the R/R twice and stator once... no joy... I'm not so hot when it comes to electrics so I'm watching the thread... right now I can't go 3 days without a external charge... it will just quit running...

Edited by BusyLittleShop
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

The RR is the new upgraded honda part, and it is around 3 months old, and only 1k miles. So I doubt it to be the issue. Battery is brand new, so I'm doubtful that it is the problem. I can't Understand how it might be the RR, when the stator tests out voltage wise unloaded fine, but under a load, very week. But on the same note, I have never seen a stator fail quite like that. Who knows, I am going to send my stator and RR to ricks for diagnostic testing, hopefully they will be able to make things right.

BLS, when you replaced your parts, did you use OEM, or aftermarket? Also did you check the flywheel, I have seen notes on the flywheel actually going bad, unlikely but possiably.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
BLS, when you replaced your parts, did you use OEM, or aftermarket? Also did you check the flywheel, I have seen notes on the flywheel actually going bad, unlikely but possiably.

With so few examples world wide there are no aftermarket parts for the RC45... all the parts are OEM... I've swapped flywheels with another RC45 in my shop... still no joy...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
Well, stay tuned then, I'll post my results from Ricks as soon as I have some. Probably be about a week.

just curious if you checked your three way diode? (looks like a fuse on front of fuse block but has three prongs) i do not kow what the result would be with a bad leg or if it was toast. its purpose is to change your ac generation to dc but if part of it was bad?????????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, stay tuned then, I'll post my results from Ricks as soon as I have some. Probably be about a week.

I've ordered a new stator and RR (OEM from Honda) and am going to wire it all directly to the battery using Weather Pack disconects and No. 10 sxl wire with a dedicated 40 amp fuse holder, I'll dialectric grease all connections and use thermal paste in mounting the regulator. If I end up with the same voltages then I'm going to call it done and carry the old rr under my seat as a back up. I'll report the results when I'm done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

I sure appreciate you boy's situation. I've got the shirt and box of NFG Honda electrics as well . I've had 2 stators fail and a "few " RR's . The typical mods (fans, conductive paste , and improved wiring )improve things but it leaves a definite mental scar. My stators were fine static but failed under load. I had a damn RR that I could NEVER get to fail within 40 miles from home - just get the other side of Rockspring though .... More then once nearly leaving the pavement staring at a stupid meter. Even today if I glance down at my ODO and I don't see a tenth click off in a couple of seconds the paranoia skyrockets ( as we know the odo is the first instrument to no go as the V decays.) I recently did a roadtrip without a spare RR - felt like a hit man w/o his piece. I've come close to selling this great bike a couple of times over this - I was brought up on Yamahas.

I am giving no usable input here - I'm sorry for that. But on a positive the last time I went through the "Triad of Ballbreak" disfunction was on my way to the Gap. The Tenn Trooper helped me get to the right place, and Mark (last name ?? ) owner of Cooksville Honda and his crew went out of their way to get me rolling ASAP and at a VERY fair price. I wasn't worried - worst case scenario would have been me smashing the bike to a pulp and throwing the VISA down on a spiffy RC51 - I was going to the gap by damn !

I just hope Soichiro H ( the exalted one ) kicked that no good number ten son in law in the electric division around the shop a few times before going to that big dyno in the sky.

non illigetimi carborundum, mates

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When i had my epiphany about the wiring last weekend, i didn't mention something because most people don't have one.

There is a device called a megger, this an ohm meter that outputs high voltage and alot more current than a simple multimeter. The multimeter is fine for 90% of checking, the megger will help to find bad continuity where a multimeter will not.

I would venture to say it is still a wiring issue, unless you have soldered all connections and totally cleaned your grounds.

I check my connections occasionally also, like you said you can loose 1/2 volt very easy with bad connection. I ran a charge test yesterday as a normal maintenance probe. Battery at 13.2volt, running at 1500 rpm 14.77volt

That looks good

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Had same problem; everything checked out but charging pattern was the same as yours. Finally pulled the side cover and found stator was cooked, very dark brown on some windings. Changed stator and all has been happy. I use a late model R1 rr as the honda ones are ridiculous expensive. Good luck...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Pulled my stator tonight. UMMMMMM, I think it is fried, looks like it was half way in a deep fryer.

gallery_4338_1246_71511.jpg

Fried Stator This is what a bad stator looks like!

I'll be sending it off to Rick's on Monday. Report coming.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
My stators were fine static but failed under load.

Did they fail with results similar to mine? Or what fassion did they fail?

R was good static, E was in spec running, the I under load was the prob. Ignore the hot oil discoloration - anectdotal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
When i had my epiphany about the wiring last weekend, i didn't mention something because most people don't have one.

There is a device called a megger, this an ohm meter that outputs high voltage and alot more current than a simple multimeter. The multimeter is fine for 90% of checking, the megger will help to find bad continuity where a multimeter will not.

I would venture to say it is still a wiring issue, unless you have soldered all connections and totally cleaned your grounds.

I worked as an Electronic Tech for the Coast Guard and you are right about the megger. But the megger would be a poor application for the VFR. It is used to test high voltage/current wiring systems and would most likely damage components of the VFR with the amount of output it shunts per run. For what the VFR is designed for a good multimeter (such as Fluke) is all you really need. Of course, if you found a low power version of the megger (IE under 30 amps/20 volts) you could always go that route but it would still be over kill. That's just my opinion though. To each their own. :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy.