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MooseMoose

Installing the new performance header on 5th gen

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Note: This is for a 5th gen. Everything here is MY observation, on my bike, and I have not elided those bits where things didn't go smoothly simply to try and be helpful. Your experience may be different. Your bike may be different. Your headers may be somehow different.  Deal with it yourself.

 

 

OK, I got started on my installation after work today. So far I have removed the old (Delkovic) headers and gotten some things cleaned up. I ran out of light, so I'll put them together after work tomorrow or Saturday morning.

 

Additionally, since you have to pull the exhaust to add or remove the centerstand, I started by pulling the stands off and repainting them. the Delk exhaust has a gazillion slip joints, so I was able to just grab the section behind the heat shield  and get them out enough to get the stand off, but the new headers are one piece. If I want to add or remove in the future I have to remove the whole exhaust, so now was the time. This happened earlier this week (There's a thread elsewhere with pics).

 

Steps I followed for disassembly:

  1. Strip the lower fairings off the bike.
    1. Both sides.
    2. Chin fairing.
  2. Remove the slipon and connector pipe.
    1. Check the fit of the connector pipe before continuing.
      1. My connector doesn't fit over the TBR size exit, so I had a local shop stretch it to fit.
  3. Remove the chainguard.
  4. Remove the heat shield from behind the right foot peg holder.
  5. Remove all sensors (two if stock 00 or 01, mine has a third for my Rapidbike).
  6. Remove the nuts from the studs on the rear cylinders.
  7. With the collector still attached to the mounting bolt underneath, remove the front nuts from the mounting studs.
  8. Remove the mounting bolt holding the collector can.
    1. Delks come apart in pieces, so that was a matter of popping them apart.
    2. Stock (and the new) headers will come apart at the rear downpipes, but the front will come off as one large unit. You'll learn to wrassle it around when you see it.
  9. Remove the old crush gaskets from the exhaust ports.
  10. Clean up and get ready to put it back together.

 

I'll have pictures below of a few things I found on disassembly.

 

Steps I will follow to assemble (Note, they aren't the same as in the service manual):

  1. Attach the centerstand.
  2. Insert the 42mm round crush washers in the rear ports.
    1. Use Delkovic round 42mm washers.
    2. These are the only ones to use! They are proven to work, anything else is likely to give bad results.
  3. Loosly attach the rear downpipes.
    1. Use high temp Antisieze on the studs before you put the nuts on.
    2. Do NOT Torque the nuts!
      1. At this stage you want the ends holding the crush washers in, but the pipes should have a little wiggle room.
  4. Insert the crush washers in the front ports.
  5. Put antisieze on the front studs.
  6. Wrestle the larger headers into place.
    1. Line up the ends with the slip joints and put them together loosely.
    2. Get the front downpipes lined up with the ports.
    3. Put nuts over studs finger tight on the front.
    4. Make sure the rear slip fittings are tight, then put springs on.
  7. Torque the nuts down
    1. Go slowly -- this pushes the crush washer into its seat
    2. Toque is NOT much -- 9ft/lbs or 12Nm according to the manual
  8. Reinstall the sensors.
    1. These don't seem to have consistent torque specs... I've seen everywhere from 15-30 lbs.
      1. hand tight and a quarter turn like an oil drain plug is conventional wisdom.
      2. They have a crush washer and threads, they're not going to leak with reasonable, 20lbs torque.
      3. You can't fit a socket over them anyway, so it's all just a well calibrated elbow and a wrench.
    2. Use antisieze.
  9. Give a brief prayer to your deity of choice that the connector pipe will line up adequately, and fit the connector and slipon.
    1. Get a snug fit.
    2. Line up the can in the clamp/holder behind the rear pegs.
    3. Tighten the clamp over the connector at the headers.
    4. Tighten the bolt holding the canister.

 

 

So far, I got the old stuff off.  I didn't install the Delkovic system, the previous owner did. He told me he had problems with leaks and he wasn't a great mechanic. Handy with tools, but overtorqued everything and didn't understand anything beyond the step by step instructions, so I have redone a lot of really bad work he did.   However, he didn't overtorque the exhaust nuts!

 

That said, he used incorrect washers and held them in place with high temp gasket maker goop.  Everything is coated in the copper Permatex. Heh. Anyway, I have it all off now.

 

First, I got the the slipon and connector off, then I got to work on the sensors:

Removal_190425_171704.jpg

 

I want to note that this is the ONLY time I ever use that wrench for actual wrenching. Though I use it a lot. It's the perfect lever for popping the left side of the throttlebody out of the boots, and I've done that more than a few times. But now I get to use it as designed!

 

 

Removal_190425_171846.jpg

 

Removal_190425_174512.jpg

 

So, now the muffler is off and the sensors are out.   I suggest you start the bike at this point and rev your engine for at least 10 minutes. This will both make sure all the exhaust is blazing hot AND will assert your authority over all your neighbors. Chicks dig a man who can handle 500 degree metal, and love confidence. The glorious, unmuffled noise will let lesser men know that you are dominant. The equivalent of being the baboon with the biggest, reddest ass.  There's no downside here.

 

 

Next, I took the back downpipes off and got a look at the ports:

Removal_190425_155825.jpg

Removal_190425_160049.jpg

 

Yes, he did hold the crush washers in place with copper permatex.  He's a nice man. Enough said.

 

I was worried the washers would be frozen in place, but he used too small a washer so there was a lip I could hook and pop them out:

Removal_190425_160648.jpg

Removal_190425_160652.jpg

Removal_190425_160657.jpg

 

More about that lip later.

 

I pulled the  front off and was also greeted with not overtorqued nuts. Thankfully.  I was able to just pop the downpipes out of the slip connectors (you won't be able to do this for stock or the new system)  and got a look at the front ports:

 

The front of the engine is really grungy.

Removal_190425_174102.jpg

 

Lots of permatex:

Removal_190425_174205.jpg

 

 

 

Again, I was able to pop these washers out because they had a goodly lip on them.

 

And here's why we use the 42mm Delkevic washers that SFDownhill has proven work properly.  Take a good look at the black part of this crush washer:

 

Removal_190425_175029.jpg

 

That's all INSIDE of the inner diameter of the Delk downpipe. That pipe is osensibly 34mm id, but this crushed out washer is a couple mm less id. The black parts actually stick in to the port a bit, so there's about a mm lip I could feel, and was able to hook to easily pull  this washer out. On the one on the right you can see it formed INSIDE the header, but not outside. Lance's photos show the crush ring smooshed into the corners of the ports, wrapped around the pipe, and not restricting the pipe or the port itself.

 

It's amazing what a difference a couple of mm here and there can make.

 

 

 

 

So here's some comparison pics before I put the new pipes on. The port ends are actually pretty close to the new ones. The Delks are 1mm less inside and outside diameter:

Removal_190425_163549.jpg

Removal_190425_163600.jpg

The new ones are beeflier farther down, though:

Removal_190425_163645.jpg

 

 

Removal_190425_175422.jpg

 

here's the fugly merge on the Delks:

Removal_190425_175349.jpg

 

I'm sure between the gaskets sticking into the ports and this clusterfuck of a collector I was giving away a couple of horsepower, just from workmanship.

 

I cleaned that permatex crap out of the ports and was out of light, so I put the bike in its shed for the night.

Removal_190425_180652.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

More coming in a later post when it all comes together.

 

 

Here's the roommate's dog who was taking his afternoon constitutional while was photographing exhaust gaskets. He's ugly on the inside, too.

Removal_190425_175041.jpg

 

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19 hours ago, MooseMoose said:

So, now the muffler is off and the sensors are out.   I suggest you start the bike at this point and rev your engine for at least 10 minutes. This will both make sure all the exhaust is blazing hot AND will assert your authority over all your neighbors. Chicks dig a man who can handle 500 degree metal, and love confidence. The glorious, unmuffled noise will let lesser men know that you are dominant. The equivalent of being the baboon with the biggest, reddest ass.  There's no downside here.

🤣

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So I got them installed -- ish.  

 

After work I pulled it out and started.

 

Note the small parts, carefully inventoried and accounted for:

assembly_190426_172826.jpg

 

Previous owner was a dolt. I spent a lot of time scraping his permatex out of the ports. Here's a pic mid-cleaning:

assembly_190426_173419.jpg

 

Front ports, too. Here they are almost ready:

assembly_190426_180210.jpg


Gaskets are a tight fit. That's good, I guess. They'll form around the end of the pipe as it gets tightened and shoves them into the seat. Here they are test fitted.

assembly_190426_174047.jpg

 

assembly_190426_180412.jpg

 

They just stay in place by themselves.

 

I lined up the rear pipes and loosely held them in place with the nuts.  Don't forget antisieze before you put the nuts on, it's annoying to get in there and take them off again.

assembly_190426_174833.jpg

 

 

So, if you noticed in the previous pics each port goes out at an odd angle, so it looks like there are cockeyed studs.  Not only is that my new band name, it's Honda's engineers being smart about maintenance access. Each one points to a gap in the works where you can get a ratchet, as long as you have the correct length of extension.  So this bolt, my long extension and short socket works:

assembly_190426_175243.jpg

assembly_190426_175258.jpg

assembly_190426_175311.jpg

 

Same for the next stud over, just enough room for the ratchet:

assembly_190426_192128.jpg

 

On the left side rear, extensions are too long, but a deep socket is just enough to get the ratchet between the shock and the stud and work properly.  You'll find the extension clears the exhaust up front, too, you'll just have to work around the radiator hoses.

 

If you're having any trouble getting the nuts threaded, take this little bastard off. It's the heat shield mounting bracket. I left it on so I didn't have to detach it from inside, but it was constantly in the way.

assembly_190426_192101.jpg

 

 

 

So, problem one:  There isn't enough room for the pipe to clear the centerstand.

assembly_190426_180720.jpg

 

 

You have to drop the centerstand, feed it into the gap in the pipe there, then re-attach the centerstand before you can wrassle the headers on the front.

assembly_190426_181947.jpg

 

 

 

SF's advice was to loosly fit the rear pipes at the slip fitting to get things lined up for the front. This is opposite of Honda's advice, they say bolt the fronts on first.

 

 

assembly_190426_182112.jpg

 

So I got them loosly fit int he loosly bolted rear pipes -- trust me, you'll NEED a lot of play at first, so just thread the nuts on a little bit back there -- then attempted to line shit up up front.

assembly_190426_182120.jpg

 

So, I go to lift the fronts up and -- what the fuck man?  This isn't even CLOSE to fitting:

assembly_190426_182224.jpg

 

For some reason, TBR made their pipes very narrow, and you have to somehow spread them out to get them into the ports. I mean SUPER narrow. Like, line one up with a port and the other one is only covering 1/3 of its port.

assembly_190426_182246.jpg

assembly_190426_182425.jpg

 

 

I texted @sfdownhill and asked if this was normal. His response was that this was expected and that he found lining up those back pipes first and loosely slip fitting them helped to get these lined up.

 

I found that a hammer and strong language were more helpful.

 

Then I did a magic trick to get these lined up with their ports a little better.

assembly_190426_190357.jpg

 

Back to the olden days, when I was pre-internet internet famous for "Moose's Wonder Jig", an appropriately sized piece of 2x4 for getting the radiator out of the way when changing plugs on a 3rd gen. I found a wedge of wood and pounded it between the pipes.

 

assembly_190426_190359.jpg

 

 

 

From there it was some wrestling, I got one bracket over the studs jsut enough to get one nut screwed a thread in, tapped the other side (another piece of 2x4 on the outside and some gently hammering) until it lined up and got that on. Then the same for the other pipe.  By this time the back had popped out of the slip fittings, but they were close enough. Everything was a few threads on the studs and I was able to line up the slip fittings and gently tap them into place. I got them close to tight, slowly tightened all the nuts on each stud a little one each side to walk the brackets down evenly and push the pipes into the ports, then slipped the springs over. One spring disappeared. I mean completely. Slipped off my spring puller, I heard a twang, then it was gone. Nowhere under the bike, nowhere in the driveway, I think it launched into a different dimension. Luckily that previous system has like a dozen slip joints.

 

I took this moment to make sure the slipon lines up:

assembly_190426_193840.jpg

 

Note the fugly spring. I had to reuse an old one from the delkevic set. Also note couple of Moose's Wonder Jigs lying there and one of two hammering tools I needed to use. There's a deadblow mallet around somewhere, too.

 

Thankfully the can lines up pretty nicely.

assembly_190426_193927.jpg

 

 

Then I ran into problems. Sensors, sensors, sensors.

 

First, does anyone know which sensor has the black connector and which has the white?  One is 1-2  and the other is 3-4. I've had them disconnected for a while now and I don't know which of that charlie foxtrot collector can from Delk was for which cylinders. Or even if the previous owner had them right.

 

And, second, it looks like the centerstand fouls the Bosch lambda sensor in the back bung:

 

centerstandbung_190426_194929.jpg

centerstandbung_190426_194932.jpg

 

centerstandbung_190426_194913.jpg

centerstandbung_190426_195011.jpg

 

 

SF claims that he has installed several times with centerstands, so maybe I'm missing something here, but it was getting dark and I'm a driveway mechanic. Had to put my tools away.  I'll look at it in the morning and see what's what.  Maybe I did something wrong or am seeing it wrong in the darlking light. It'll be clearer  in daytime.

 

So, a lot of effort. The end wasn't particularly satisfying. Just like the debut album from the Cockeyed Studs. Hopefully I'll get those sensors installed and make it run at some point this weekend.

 

 

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No time to write now, but I got it together.  More tips on fitting issues later.

 

Here's the first start and checking for leaks:

 

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OK, I put it back together. People in the other thread don't seem to think my pictures, which made this process take literally twice as long as had I just done the shit and moved on, illustrate exactly what I said. Or maybe they think I'm stupid. So fuck that shit, I just buttoned it up and I'll show one or two things, but no more expansive pictures of everything.

 

First problem: centerstand spring fouling.

 

The solution was twofold. First, I flipped the spring. PO had it spring toward the mount, I put it spring toward the crossbar, so the long, thin part was near the sensor. This made it so the sensor fit, but it was still super close:

SensorSpring.jpg

 

I expanded the connector pipe a bit farther in, so I could position it differently. Then I added a fatter stopper -- the Stock Honda one is a few mm fatter than the one that was on there.  These two things bought me about 3mm so the spring clears the sensor with enough room to be safe.

The pipe is close to the tire, but still has enough room to comfortably clear, and lines up adequately.  Note the scrape in my fresh paint where I accidentally let the centerstand twang up into the retracted position when I was switching stoppers

fatterStandStop2.jpg

The stock Honda stopper is nice and thick

FatterStandStop.jpg

 

 

Another note on the 3rd hole sensor. It's really not easily routed -- that sensor points to the chain and the swingarm with no safe place to run the cable up the left side of the bike. My old setup was pointed Right, so I had a lot more options.  To keep it from getting loose and rubbing I attached it to the mounting point for the stock headers:

 

SensorRoute1.jpg

Note: Your headers are no longer attached to the bottom of the case. You probably do not want to use them as a jack point like you could with the stock collector.

 

 

After that the sensor run sneaks up between the clutch cover and the peg holder:

 

 

Sensorroute3.jpg

 

I wanted to make sure it stayed tight so it didn't rest on the pipes.

Sensorroute2.jpg

 

I then routed it behind the heat shield. I zip tied it to that bastard of a mount that is always in the way, so it cannot touch the headers up there and stays secured

SensorRoute4.jpg

 

From there it comes into the rear subframe and I plugged it into the Rapidbike module behind the brake fluid reservoir.  This should be good, every point is hard, so no bouncing around on the swingarm or anything to cause wear.

 

 When I put the plastic on I had several issues. The first was minor. The stock sensor rubs against the plastic just in front of the sidestand:

SensorsStock.jpg

 

20190428_182618.jpg

 

My solution?   I don't give a shit. Let it rub. It's not enough to really harm anything.

 

 The other minor issue is the right side  lower comes kind of close to the pipes. I didn't take a picture of this. I don't think it's an issue, though it's closer than I'd like. I might wrap that pipe. I'll ride it a bit and see how hot the plastic gets.

 

The REAL issue, though, is that the front headers rub against the chin fairing. Not just a little, a lot.  The right downpipe made major contact.

 My solution there is to just grind away some of the fairing. Hate to do it, but I'm not taking the headers off and there's no other way to make it fit.   Oddly, after I thought I made it fit it wasn't enough clearance, so when it got hit it still melted the plastic some.  I'll have to do a little more dremel doctoring later. Nobody will notice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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This one gets its own post.

 

Watch your torque!   You don't need much. It's 9lbs/12nm. That's like 1/8 of a turn past finger tight.   Both the Honda and the Haynes manual say this, so there's no excuse to overtorque. Here's a picture from the Haynes Book of Lies:

TorqueSettings.jpg

 

12Nm is less than 10lbs. Very little.

 

What can happen if you really crank is that the flange will bend, and this will spread the studs.  One of my front cylinders had spread studs, obviously a byproduct of the PO's first attempt at installing the Delk headers I yanked off. I had to tap the flange over the studs to get them down, then walk the pipe into the port with the nuts, which is sub-optimal.

 

If this is the case for you, what I did was go back and forth, a couple of cranks on the ratchet here, a couple there, until the resistance started to increase. Then I gave them 1/4 turn each and was done.  I actually think this was too much torque, even, as Lance and I talked about how much 9lbs was and how little it takes to bend a flange.

 

I got NO leaks. I rode the bike for a quick Italian Overhaul to set a baseline for my rapidbike and checked for leaks. None. I then ran errands letting it heat up and cool down 3 times, then checked for leaks and found none. 12Nm is plenty.

 

 

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Nice job working through the issues. Don't worry about what other ppl think. You're still helping somebody... I bet everyone that bought a header is studying your thread. Also, this is still more of a custom set than it is production, so there will be some variation from part to part and if everyone assumes all parts are 100% the same then there will be these little disagreements about what fits and what doesn't. So just keep doing what you're doing. 

 

One other note, IMO you'd be better served by a piece of heat shielding attached to the inside of the fairing vs wrapping a section of the header. Install it with a good contact cement and it should last the life of the bike. 

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@MooseMoose, thx for the effort to detail your experience.  I had already installed mine the week before but I still went thru this with interest.  A couple of points if they were not made in your post; take before pix of sensor plugs and any other items you think you'll forget how they go together (obvious to some folks here, maybe not so much for others with less experience screwing things up, which I have plenty of :biggrin:); and since the stud nut torque is so low, I used a 1/4in drive ratchet with extensions and a u-joint, for easier fitting to make getting the rear nuts run down easier.

 

ACE

 

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@carlgustav

 

The sensor plugs -- good note. Remember to note which one's black and which one's white, that's the end that is hidden under the fairing. They're color coded so you can get them plugged into the harness right.

 

My exhaust wasn't stock, and I have been running with sensor eliminators for a long time.  I had no idea which one was which, so I installed mine to match what sfdownhill had on a 5th gen.

 

@SEBSPEED

 

I haven't even looked at or thought of heat shielding. I had some inside my 91 fairing for toasty bits and it's still attached, so I guess that's testament to durability. 

 

This issue is at the very point behind/below the clutch cover.  It's already pretty close there, but I guess the couple of mm extra outside diameter is just enough to make me notice.    What I really need to do is get it hot and get down there and feel the plastic to see if it's actually a problem or not. There's no containing the heat there, and there's lots of free air around, so maybe the pipe isn't radiating enough to matter. They're not touching, just close.

 

Raining today, but tomorrow I'll ride to lunch and feel the fairing when I get off the bike and it's at temp.

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4 hours ago, SEBSPEED said:

...Also, this is still more of a custom set than it is production, so there will be some variation from part to part and if everyone assumes all parts are 100% the same then there will be these little disagreements about what fits and what doesn't. So just keep doing what you're doing.

Let's face it, anyone who assumes all parts are the same hasn't dealt with many aftermarket exhausts! I wouldn't be surprised to find that a factory new Honda part needed a little bit of effort to fit. It's THIN metal and it has been welded, it's only natural for it to wander a bit, jig or no jig. A few hundred heat cycles should relax it into place a bit.

 

As far as the heat issue goes, I wonder if anyone is going to go for ceramic coating... Keep the heat on the inside. If you're $800 in already, what's another couple hundo?

 

EDIT: I see ceramic was mentioned and recommended against in the other thread. I deal with heat, metal and how these things interact for a living and I'm not entirely sure I agree... I'm not claiming to know more about exhaust than our mystery man, but Austenitic stainless (300 series) is rated for a higher temp in continuous service than its intermittent rating - meaning it fails at a lower temp due to thermal cycles. Just speculation, but ceramic might keep the temp fluctuations down... If it's even close, I feel like directing the heat out of the fairings would be worth it. 

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I don't think ceramic would help the front chin fairing on mine. It presses against it to the right of the right cutout. Trimming was the only option and no amount of relaxing of the pipes will change it.  However, they're all going to be different, and I bet many folks will get lucky and see zero fitting problems. And this wasn't a complete system, so there will be other variables. Part of my issues were specifically related to the stand stop on my connector, which was completely out of Wade's control, and easily rectified. Fairings are not all precise on these bikes, either. Anyone who has done a repair after a drop will know that little bit of obnoxiousness when trying to line up the new plastic.

 

In other words, there's nothing WRONG with these. The type of steel that can handle repeated extreme heating and cooling will be, by nature, quite elastic. Otherwise it will become too brittle and crack. I have no   idea what coating does, by the way, so no comments on that, but keeping bent steel tubing of this sort precise even prior to welds is a huge challenge. That's expected.

 

They are narrow because the TBR pipes they were modeled on were also tightly spaced. A friend 25 years ago had TBR left exit system on his 1990 and they, too, were not precisely spaced and needed some hammering in to place. I assume there's a reason for this, and it's probably a legacy of the design going all the way back to the 80s race bikes.  I don't know what the reason is, but these were built right. The welds are excellent and workmanlike, and folks who know more than me have commented that the junctions were done right.  I got a good, tight seal with no leaks on the first try, something I cannot say for the Delk headers I pulled off of the bike. And the butt dyno can feel the difference approaching redline.

 

You get custom made stuff like this and it's just that. Custom. People who haven't gotten theirs yet will see, they're a quality item. But, yeah, expect to have to do minor troubleshooting.

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A couple of follow ups.

 

Sensor Wiring

 

I'm pretty sure the sensors are wired Natural to 1-2  Black to 3-4.   I've seen a couple of pics including a recent pick of a 6th gen and that's how they are.  Noting it here in case anyone loses track and needs to  know for sure. Please respond if you think I'm wrong! We don't want bad info out there.

 

Fairing

 

I tweaked the right lower attachment just a little -- this bike got backed into. Twice.  Heh, -- and got the fairing lined up as perfectly as I can. It clears enough, I think.  I rode it and with it up to temp the outside of the fairing wasn't even warm. Inside WAS warm, but not too bad.    I think I'll use Seb's suggestion and put a bit of heat shield there, but I am in no hurry, I don't think it's really too much worse than stock.  I'll bring my ir thermometer with me when I can run it hard for a bit and really get the pipes hot to see, but I'm fine with it.

 

The chin fairing is really fouling badly. I had to remove a good bit of plastic, and after yesterday's short test ride it was still too close once everything got warm and relaxed.  I'll pull a couple more mm off next time I take the fairing off and can  get at it from the backside.


 

More on using RapidBike with this setup in a later post.

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RapidBike Users

 

I have a Rapidbike Racing with a single MTB. I think it is using the older 4.2 sensor, not the newer one.

 

Backstory (Skip this if you don't care)

====

For a long time I have been running it with resistors in instead of connecting the stock sensors. I did this for a few reasons, the first being that my Delkevic headers occasionally leaked after big temperature swings, so when they got super hot I could sometimes get fussy correction, which I controlled by limiting the max correction that could be applied.  And the second, big, reason was that I had a horrible experience with the lean mode as the bike would go super lean at constant RPM while cruising. I'd add throttle, it'd get slower, I'd add more throttle, then finally when I hit 5% throttle it would switch out of lean mode and surge. REALLY annoying I couldn't just hold a steady speed and stay there.

 

Some of the problems might have been traced back to an error code I was getting my MAP sensor, which sent the bike into "Default mode" for fueling. This is richer than normal and makes for a huge difference from lean cruise to normal.  However I didn't figure this out until after I'd already started using O2 eliminators and then the rapidbike. I fixed that problem, and the new headers do not leak, ever, from what I can tell. So I decided to try connecting and RBo2 Active to see how it worked.

====

 

Current Setup:

  • I have both stock sensors in and connected.
  • I am running the single sensor MTB
  • My advance map is zeroed out completely
  • RBo2 Active is checked

Results:

  • RBo2 Active does not seem to account for the change to lean fueling. The bike will go into lean mode, and still surge annoyingly
  • The MTB will  completely pork the map after cruising between 5000 and 6500 rpm.
  • I hate the Honda engineer who came up with this lean mode at steady RPM thing with an abiding passion

The end result is that, if you cruise along at say 5500rpm for a little while the bike will eventually run normally, but then when you grab a handful getting on the freeway or something, there will be a monstrous hole in the powerband between 5 and 6K. A couple of runs accelerating through that range will restore full power again.

 

My basic assumption is that the maps are chasing the lean. It never reaches real runaway level, but it does make for a substantial correction on both sides before it stabilizes and when you're using it more dynamically you can get bad results. On rare instances, it'll pop and backfire on throttle shutoff. Basically, if you cruise, then accelerate (taking it out of cruise mode), then roll off. This tells me it is going too rich as, when it's running nicely and I'm going up and down the RPM range it never sputters or pops.

 

So, I don't buy that RBo2 Active is a valid solution on 00/01 VFRs.  My next experiment will be to put resistors back in and unplug the stock sensors, counting on the leakless nature of the new headers to make a much better map.

 

Overall, when I haven't been cruising for a long time beforehand, the acceleration is glass smooth and noticeably stronger above 9000 RPM. It's not a huge difference, but palpable in the right circumstance. It just never stops getting stronger where the delk headers kind of weakened a but as you approached redline.

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Do you have pair valves blocked off?

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Of course I do. I did that long before the rapidbike, actually, but the rapidbike literally will not work properly with the Pair enabled.

Why do you ask?

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Just checking, as they will influence the o2 readings.

So you have run it with the factory sensors connected and the MTB/RB O2 disconnected and unchecked? 

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Haven't tried RBo2 Active unchecked in this configuration. That's specifically supposed to be checked if you have stock sensors, according to rapidbike. I could flip it off and see what happens, but I don't know what to expect. Does the stock signal still pass the harness without RBo2 Active? And if so, will I throw the codes and go into the failure-rich map?  Might be interesting to see. But I'm sure I won't be running it RBo2 Active with the sensors connected for long.

 

I did try it before I got the MTB module and it most definitely didn't work well with stock sensors connected. Same problem, but worse as it takes a lot longer to correct the bad readings. That was why the eliminators went back in after I sold the PCIII, and it worked much better with eliminators.

 

Basically, it works properly with not active and eliminators so that's what I ran most of the time, before and after I got MTB. I just decided to try it hooked to the stock sensors  since I was in there with the fresh pipes, and I have my MAP sensor error fixed, so I am theoretically in the best possible state for things to be tested since I got the bike. 

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Sorry Nope don't do that,

I just reread the manual and I am wrong.

 

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Just for giggles I did run it with RBo2 unchecked.

 

Oddly, it cruised a little better. It wouldn't switch back and forth between modes as quickly, causing surges. But it would go DEEP into the cruise mode and stay there. Throttle would be really pathetic at 5-10% between 4 and 6K.  It corrected, but just seemed to do the corrections more slowly.  The map it made was hilarious. 1s, 2s, 3s, maybe occasional 4s one way or the other in most cells at higher RPM and throttle settins, and 11 (the max) in the half dozen cells surrounding 5000 at less than 30% throttle. No wonder it falls on its face! 

 

Whatever, it's a bust either way. Rapidbike doesn't solve this problem. Next time I pull the fairing I'll disconnect the sensors.

 

Just conjecture, knowing how software works and guessing at Honda's tricks, I don't have actual data, but I think it got into a race condition where both the bike and the rapidbike were chasing each other until the correction maxed out.   In fact, it would be fun to do some datalogging to see what's really going on, but I don't have a bluebike module and it's just curiosity for me, not anything that really matters.  The fact is that this isn't working for me so I'm going to jam the resistors back in and let Rapidbike lean it off from the map Honda uses when it isn't getting sensor data. It's good enough for a power commander, it's good enough for me.

 

I should actually buy some bung plugs and just take them out, in fact. Save some fugly wiring routing up behind the coolant tank.

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12 hours ago, MooseMoose said:

...I think it got into a race condition where both the bike and the rapidbike were chasing each other until the correction maxed out.

That has always seemed more or less inevitable to me. Two systems doing dynamic corrections but with different targets... what else can you expect?

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This is exactly what I expect.

 

I just wanted to do my due diligence  since Rapidbike say you should leave your stock sensors connected. Now I know for certain, with all other variables fixed, it doesn't work that way.

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If you keep the stock O2 sensors with RBR, then the same old Honda stock lean running will occur. If you have the MTB, then disconnect the stock O2 sensors & add at least one resistor to the power circuit of one sensor, then the ECU will default to the fixed rich map. Your MTB can correct that as it will NOT vary ever.

 

I used the two stock O2 sensors wires in parallel to power my MTB O2 sensor. You have to use both, as the wide band sensor has double the power draw as the lambda ones ! But it means no resistors & like stock the O2 sensor is only powered when the engine is running ! 🙂

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mohawk said:

I used the two stock O2 sensors wires in parallel to power my MTB O2 sensor. You have to use both, as the wide band sensor has double the power draw as the lambda ones ! But it means no resistors & like stock the O2 sensor is only powered when the engine is running ! 🙂

 

 

Not sure how you wired that. Not having resistors sounds elegant, but a couple of Rs covered in cold shrink tape really don't get in the way, either. But I am interested in what you did there.

 

I just plug the lambda sensor into the stock harness, and I assume it gets its power there. The MTB is powered with the rest of the RB stuff off a relay I wired to the tail light circuit, so it's isolated until the key is turned on.

 

This afternoon I put it back to resistors in the sensor feeds.  I left the stock o2 sensors plugged into the rapidbke harness, but unplugged the connectors on Honda side and put the eliminators there. This is how I was running it before my experiments.

 

Without being plugged into the Honda end of the harness, I assume they're not being powered and, therefore, doing absolutely nothing here.

 

In summary, I'm glad I did the experiments. I know now, for absolute fact, that rapidbike's docs are utter shite and that I was doing it properly before, correcting off the static map. I post all the experiments here so all others don't have to bother.

 

 

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Note: This is for a 5th gen. Everything here is MY observation, on my bike, and I have not elided those bits where things didn't go smoothly simply to try and be helpful. Your experience may be different. Your bike may be different. Your headers may be somehow different.  Deal with it yourself.
 
 
OK, I got started on my installation after work today. So far I have removed the old (Delkovic) headers and gotten some things cleaned up. I ran out of light, so I'll put them together after work tomorrow or Saturday morning.
 
Additionally, since you have to pull the exhaust to add or remove the centerstand, I started by pulling the stands off and repainting them. the Delk exhaust has a gazillion slip joints, so I was able to just grab the section behind the heat shield  and get them out enough to get the stand off, but the new headers are one piece. If I want to add or remove in the future I have to remove the whole exhaust, so now was the time. This happened earlier this week (There's a thread elsewhere with pics).
 
Steps I followed for disassembly:
  1. Strip the lower fairings off the bike.
    1. Both sides.
    2. Chin fairing.
  2. Remove the slipon and connector pipe.
    1. Check the fit of the connector pipe before continuing.
      1. My connector doesn't fit over the TBR size exit, so I had a local shop stretch it to fit.
  3. Remove the chainguard.
  4. Remove the heat shield from behind the right foot peg holder.
  5. Remove all sensors (two if stock 00 or 01, mine has a third for my Rapidbike).
  6. Remove the nuts from the studs on the rear cylinders.
  7. With the collector still attached to the mounting bolt underneath, remove the front nuts from the mounting studs.
  8. Remove the mounting bolt holding the collector can.
    1. Delks come apart in pieces, so that was a matter of popping them apart.
    2. Stock (and the new) headers will come apart at the rear downpipes, but the front will come off as one large unit. You'll learn to wrassle it around when you see it.
  9. Remove the old crush gaskets from the exhaust ports.
  10. Clean up and get ready to put it back together.
 
I'll have pictures below of a few things I found on disassembly.
 
Steps I will follow to assemble (Note, they aren't the same as in the service manual):
  1. Attach the centerstand.
  2. Insert the 42mm round crush washers in the rear ports.
    1. Use Delkovic round 42mm washers.
    2. These are the only ones to use! They are proven to work, anything else is likely to give bad results.
  3. Loosly attach the rear downpipes.
    1. Use high temp Antisieze on the studs before you put the nuts on.
    2. Do NOT Torque the nuts!
      1. At this stage you want the ends holding the crush washers in, but the pipes should have a little wiggle room.
  4. Insert the crush washers in the front ports.
  5. Put antisieze on the front studs.
  6. Wrestle the larger headers into place.
    1. Line up the ends with the slip joints and put them together loosely.
    2. Get the front downpipes lined up with the ports.
    3. Put nuts over studs finger tight on the front.
    4. Make sure the rear slip fittings are tight, then put springs on.
  7. Torque the nuts down
    1. Go slowly -- this pushes the crush washer into its seat
    2. Toque is NOT much -- 9ft/lbs or 12Nm according to the manual
  8. Reinstall the sensors.
    1. These don't seem to have consistent torque specs... I've seen everywhere from 15-30 lbs.
      1. hand tight and a quarter turn like an oil drain plug is conventional wisdom.
      2. They have a crush washer and threads, they're not going to leak with reasonable, 20lbs torque.
      3. You can't fit a socket over them anyway, so it's all just a well calibrated elbow and a wrench.
    2. Use antisieze.
  9. Give a brief prayer to your deity of choice that the connector pipe will line up adequately, and fit the connector and slipon.
    1. Get a snug fit.
    2. Line up the can in the clamp/holder behind the rear pegs.
    3. Tighten the clamp over the connector at the headers.
    4. Tighten the bolt holding the canister.
 
 
So far, I got the old stuff off.  I didn't install the Delkovic system, the previous owner did. He told me he had problems with leaks and he wasn't a great mechanic. Handy with tools, but overtorqued everything and didn't understand anything beyond the step by step instructions, so I have redone a lot of really bad work he did.   However, he didn't overtorque the exhaust nuts!
 
That said, he used incorrect washers and held them in place with high temp gasket maker goop.  Everything is coated in the copper Permatex. Heh. Anyway, I have it all off now.
 
First, I got the the slipon and connector off, then I got to work on the sensors:
Removal_190425_171704.jpg&key=956e2ad4f11e459270d69aa8f30842f637f0d743bacc455c3065486877379df7
 
I want to note that this is the ONLY time I ever use that wrench for actual wrenching. Though I use it a lot. It's the perfect lever for popping the left side of the throttlebody out of the boots, and I've done that more than a few times. But now I get to use it as designed!
 
 
Removal_190425_171846.jpg&key=ce0d55c7b2a849873f9dba290045b050e826373c756c47565916538e960bb2f6
 
Removal_190425_174512.jpg&key=a5c371b62ebc716315aa6379a8bbb58174358e37f661c453f5c19086a272a3ef
 
So, now the muffler is off and the sensors are out.   I suggest you start the bike at this point and rev your engine for at least 10 minutes. This will both make sure all the exhaust is blazing hot AND will assert your authority over all your neighbors. Chicks dig a man who can handle 500 degree metal, and love confidence. The glorious, unmuffled noise will let lesser men know that you are dominant. The equivalent of being the baboon with the biggest, reddest ass.  There's no downside here.
 
 
Next, I took the back downpipes off and got a look at the ports:
Removal_190425_155825.jpg&key=6c5fbd1db6c3c0b067c5206e22715bbed3616d8c8ecf6d03e1c7c52d0ffd4fe0
Removal_190425_160049.jpg&key=6f8675c52df7d2a4ba8f294488887f003f7ffbaacd3cc3f19df788db67f84577
 
Yes, he did hold the crush washers in place with copper permatex.  He's a nice man. Enough said.
 
I was worried the washers would be frozen in place, but he used too small a washer so there was a lip I could hook and pop them out:
Removal_190425_160648.jpg&key=8e6db4b05423c3324216e80e280d4d442e78d3ac8c1625c3d0af763c6b4d262b
Removal_190425_160652.jpg&key=33fca6870efc0de7d2a541bf74b9faeebd436323ec30edffd2e16bc0a356da81
Removal_190425_160657.jpg&key=0ba43c8c5b4beb7718d9d3533dc58a3d4a512251a13f77efbb6d0c9ddbd4a649
 
More about that lip later.
 
I pulled the  front off and was also greeted with not overtorqued nuts. Thankfully.  I was able to just pop the downpipes out of the slip connectors (you won't be able to do this for stock or the new system)  and got a look at the front ports:
 
The front of the engine is really grungy.
Removal_190425_174102.jpg&key=f16970730c979659429d50090e2b1ba0924e6a88e9b0238e0ee9e3c1eda4d3e6
 
Lots of permatex:
Removal_190425_174205.jpg&key=166daccd1759341a726a3fd6ac05470176eb8a01059682c4731c4cc19fbb6adc
 
 
 
Again, I was able to pop these washers out because they had a goodly lip on them.
 
And here's why we use the 42mm Delkevic washers that SFDownhill has proven work properly.  Take a good look at the black part of this crush washer:
 
Removal_190425_175029.jpg&key=c3fed86df2b8adc2c328d5204672e069d5ae86633d08382c5bd0cdeee26d74e5
 
That's all INSIDE of the inner diameter of the Delk downpipe. That pipe is osensibly 34mm id, but this crushed out washer is a couple mm less id. The black parts actually stick in to the port a bit, so there's about a mm lip I could feel, and was able to hook to easily pull  this washer out. On the one on the right you can see it formed INSIDE the header, but not outside. Lance's photos show the crush ring smooshed into the corners of the ports, wrapped around the pipe, and not restricting the pipe or the port itself.
 
It's amazing what a difference a couple of mm here and there can make.
 
 
 
 
So here's some comparison pics before I put the new pipes on. The port ends are actually pretty close to the new ones. The Delks are 1mm less inside and outside diameter:
Removal_190425_163549.jpg&key=fec7b83773acb2253375f5722ad4a5251065c0ee3ca8a6c88404f172a6813721
Removal_190425_163600.jpg&key=179409b992e20cbc72ab2caa11bfd77940499acc7c5d796f816bd59f761fc792
The new ones are beeflier farther down, though:
Removal_190425_163645.jpg&key=b4fdc8f04303ee6f858ebf5299d932b6667f711008138c855f08e06d94d49fb9
 
 
Removal_190425_175422.jpg&key=8ad7e5efe4e64a5a2b22f1405b2f97b8b70e2326ed6e4e566f8e699d1b6d376f
 
here's the fugly merge on the Delks:
Removal_190425_175349.jpg&key=ad8aa9fae9682caef43789a5bfc4457f2ad6837e51816cc6c6ceb487af38c30a
 
I'm sure between the gaskets sticking into the ports and this clusterfuck of a collector I was giving away a couple of horsepower, just from workmanship.
 
I cleaned that permatex crap out of the ports and was out of light, so I put the bike in its shed for the night.
Removal_190425_180652.jpg&key=838254d43ea3ccd29f8a9b5de0440fefa9b995099537eb4936c66adac656b3f0
 
 
 
 
 
 
More coming in a later post when it all comes together.
 
 
Here's the roommate's dog who was taking his afternoon constitutional while was photographing exhaust gaskets. He's ugly on the inside, too.
Removal_190425_175041.jpg&key=e325c3b23fb433142f97568ed343c793bb4edeb5ba0c0d1a1d0dc6e5eca7f108
 
I for one want to thank you for the detailed instructions on how you removed the old headers and installed the new ones. I'm not much of a mechanic and I'm gonna actually try with the help of my nephew and I will definitely refer to your instructions and pictures as we go along. I was told earlier that I needed to spray something on the old header nuts so that they don't pull the entire bolt out of the engine before I try to take them off. What exactly should I spray on them?

David

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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