Compufire R/R

[KevCarver]

I've been reading up on the upgrades to the R/R and settled on getting a mosfet type to replace my VFR unit. I'm on the updated Honda R/R, and I recently noticed the stator wires on the R/R side of the plug have been heated to the point of the insulation cracking and flaking off leaving exposed wires. Luckily nothing had happened yet, or melted the plug even. I suspect the insulation had come off while I was manipulating the wires after I removed it. Was a problem waiting to happen, in any case.

Following that I was able to pick up a couple of the mosfet R/R's off ebay, and some of the waterproof connectors to fit them from Eastern Beaver. Of course, then I saw the recent comments on the Compufire 55402. So now I'm thinking about trying one out on the VFR, and sticking the mosfet units on the other two bikes.

Anybody else thinking of getting one to wire up? Even if I order one right away, unfortunately mine won't be up and running for a while.

[DaveB]

I've been reading up on the upgrades to the R/R and settled on getting a mosfet type to replace my VFR unit. I'm on the updated Honda R/R, and I recently noticed the stator wires on the R/R side of the plug have been heated to the point of the insulation cracking and flaking off leaving exposed wires. Luckily nothing had happened yet, or melted the plug even. I suspect the insulation had come off while I was manipulating the wires after I removed it. Was a problem waiting to happen, in any case.

Following that I was able to pick up a couple of the mosfet R/R's off ebay, and some of the waterproof connectors to fit them from Eastern Beaver. Of course, then I saw the recent comments on the Compufire 55402. So now I'm thinking about trying one out on the VFR, and sticking the mosfet units on the other two bikes.

Anybody else thinking of getting one to wire up? Even if I order one right away, unfortunately mine won't be up and running for a while.

I'm going to be getting one when I have some spare cash after Xmas. I think it is the only way to stop R&R and stator failures. Even after doing all the mods suggested on VFRD people still say they get failures. The Shunt regulator is a crappy design that makes all parts of the charging system run at max power all the time hence all the failures.

Here is a good power point that explains the benefits of the series R&R vs the shunt.

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charging/RR_Tutorial.pdf

[MadScientist]

Yep, that is in the budget for early next year. Either the Compufire or the Cycle Electric 603, whatever I can find less expensive.

[kaldek]

I can see this becoming one of the things that everyone does to their VFR. All our previous posts and recommendations may just suddenly fall away into oblivion, with each and every electrical problem easily and simply fixed by installing a series regulator.

Man wouldn't that be just the best?

[mello dude]

I'm planning to go that route at some point. I called Compufire and they want $204 for the part. Well my ride is just ok for the moment, so I'm gonna hold off a while as I'm not working and need to watch my cash.

[MadScientist]

I'm planning to go that route at some point. I called Compufire and they want $204 for the part. Well my ride is just ok for the moment, so I'm gonna hold off a while as I'm not working and need to watch my cash.

Mello and others. Both the Compufire (DS# 2112-0416) and the Cycle Electrics (DS#2112-0145 and others) units are listed in the Drag Specialties Fatbook. I know my local HD dealer offers a 10% discount off book price, you may want to check around at your local dealers. Otherwise, the Compufire can be found from internet dealers shipped for ~$180.

[mello dude]

I'm planning to go that route at some point. I called Compufire and they want $204 for the part. Well my ride is just ok for the moment, so I'm gonna hold off a while as I'm not working and need to watch my cash.

Mello and others. Both the Compufire (DS# 2112-0416) and the Cycle Electrics (DS#2112-0145 and others) units are listed in the Drag Specialties Fatbook. I know my local HD dealer offers a 10% discount off book price, you may want to check around at your local dealers. Otherwise, the Compufire can be found from internet dealers shipped for ~$180.

Thanks for the heads up -

To add to the mix ----

http://www.usmotoman.com/product/vol...ystem/-1_17037

Dennis Kirk

http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp;jsessionid=0VODEH1RYL3NZQFIDYECM4WAVAPAUIV0?store=&skuId=209632&mmy=

OK whose first? :cool:

[KevCarver]

I think I'll stick the R1 unit in there for now. I wound up getting both a ZX10 and an R1 mosfet R/R. I used the ZX10 unit for my Pacific Coast, upgrading the old shunt R/R on it after I found a burnt connector.

My RC51 R/R looks really good, all the wires and connectors are in fine shape. I thought I might use the R1 R/R on it, but I think I'll leave it alone.

I got the plugs and wires from Eastern Beaver to wire in the FH012 to the VFR, bypassing the main harness and having the output wired direct to the battery (via 30a fuse on + side). Also it comes with better waterproof/vibration resistant connector for the stator wires. I'll see how all that turns out before I spend nearly $200 on the Compufire.

On ebay the R1 unit (FH012) was just under $60, and the ZX (FH010) was under $30. So the two averaged out to less than $45 each. Not too bad!

[Tightwad]

I don't understand from their information where the excess voltage being generated is going. The Stator creates the power no matter what...RPM dictates just how much, but the same amount is there.

[Misspent Youth]

I don't understand from their information where the excess voltage being generated is going. The Stator creates the power no matter what...RPM dictates just how much, but the same amount is there.

I don't know, but if I had your knowledge of electrics I'd ask Decosse on the Triumph board (among many others). See post #14 at http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade-2.html

He says the regulator "goes open" when no more juice is needed. He also says (I'm sure he's also paraphrasing the Suzuki guy who pioneered this mod) that a series regulator is easier on the stator for some reason I don't understand. If you get the answers to these questions, I hope you'll post them up for those of us who remain curious.

[JZH]

Mine is on its way, but it will be a while before it's installed on a running bike... By the time I get my Torocharger done nobody's going to know what one is!

Ciao,

[Tightwad]

I don't understand from their information where the excess voltage being generated is going. The Stator creates the power no matter what...RPM dictates just how much, but the same amount is there.

I don't know, but if I had your knowledge of electrics I'd ask Decosse on the Triumph board (among many others). See post #14 at http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade-2.html

He says the regulator "goes open" when no more juice is needed. He also says (I'm sure he's also paraphrasing the Suzuki guy who pioneered this mod) that a series regulator is easier on the stator for some reason I don't understand. If you get the answers to these questions, I hope you'll post them up for those of us who remain curious.

This is how I assumed it worked (and what I read) but I am a bit confused about how you open such a high amperage circuit without some arcing. I am not an electrical engineer, just someone who has a mechanical aptitude and basic understanding of how things work...

[mechdziner714]

If you fix the shitty connector the RR will be fine.

[DaveB]

I don't understand from their information where the excess voltage being generated is going. The Stator creates the power no matter what...RPM dictates just how much, but the same amount is there.

I don't know, but if I had your knowledge of electrics I'd ask Decosse on the Triumph board (among many others). See post #14 at http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade-2.html

He says the regulator "goes open" when no more juice is needed. He also says (I'm sure he's also paraphrasing the Suzuki guy who pioneered this mod) that a series regulator is easier on the stator for some reason I don't understand. If you get the answers to these questions, I hope you'll post them up for those of us who remain curious.

This is how I assumed it worked (and what I read) but I am a bit confused about how you open such a high amperage circuit without some arcing. I am not an electrical engineer, just someone who has a mechanical aptitude and basic understanding of how things work...

I'm an electrical engineer and will try and explain how a regulator works.

Think of the regulator as a valve or faucet for electricity it automatically adjusts to conduct a lot of electricity or a little which is why it is called a regulator. In actuality is does this by adjusting the firing angle of 3 Thyristors or the switch on point of 3 MOSFETs, the actual mechanism is not important and there are different ways of doing it, but the result is the same it automatically regulates the flow of electricity.

The conventional shunt regulator adjusts the amount of current dumped to ground causing the stator output voltage to drop due to its internal resistance. So if it takes 40 amps to reduce the stator output voltage to the required 14.5 volts but the bike only uses 15 amps to run with headlamps on then the regulator has dump 25 amps to ground. The point being the stator always supplies 40 amps and runs at maximum output gets hot and eventually burns out.

On the other hand the better engineering solution the series regulator adjusts the flow of electricity to just allow the required 15 amps to flow with an output voltage of 14.5 volt. As the current demands of the bike change the voltage dropped across the series regulator changes to keep the output voltage at 14.5 volts no matter how much or how little current is required. So the stator only supplies the current need by the bike which in most case will be 20 amps or less hence it is not under such a high load, does not get as hot and should not burn out.

I've attached a power point with more information and explanation

RR_Tutorial.pdf

[mello dude]

Thanks Dave! :fing02:

[Tightwad]

I don't understand from their information where the excess voltage being generated is going. The Stator creates the power no matter what...RPM dictates just how much, but the same amount is there.

I don't know, but if I had your knowledge of electrics I'd ask Decosse on the Triumph board (among many others). See post #14 at http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade-2.html

He says the regulator "goes open" when no more juice is needed. He also says (I'm sure he's also paraphrasing the Suzuki guy who pioneered this mod) that a series regulator is easier on the stator for some reason I don't understand. If you get the answers to these questions, I hope you'll post them up for those of us who remain curious.

This is how I assumed it worked (and what I read) but I am a bit confused about how you open such a high amperage circuit without some arcing. I am not an electrical engineer, just someone who has a mechanical aptitude and basic understanding of how things work...

I'm an electrical engineer and will try and explain how a regulator works.

Think of the regulator as a valve or faucet for electricity it automatically adjusts to conduct a lot of electricity or a little which is why it is called a regulator. In actuality is does this by adjusting the firing angle of 3 Triacs or the switch on point of 3 MOSFETs, the actual mechanism is not important and there are different ways of doing it, but the result is the same it automatically regulates the flow of electricity.

The conventional shunt regulator adjusts the amount of current dumped to ground causing the stator output voltage to drop due to its internal resistance. So if it takes 40 amps to reduce the stator output voltage to the required 14.5 volts but the bike only uses 15 amps to run with headlamps on then the regulator has dump 25 amps to ground. The point being the stator always supplies 40 amps and runs at maximum output gets hot and eventually burns out.

On the other hand the better engineering solution the series regulator adjusts the flow of electricity to just allow the required 15 amps to flow with an output voltage of 14.5 volt. As the current demands of the bike change the voltage dropped across the series regulator changes to keep the output voltage at 14.5 volts no matter how much or how little current is required. So the stator only supplies the current need by the bike which in most case will be 20 amps or less hence it is not under such a high load, does not get as hot and should not burn out.

I've attached a power point with more information and explanation

Yes, I understand how the standard MOSFET and SCR type of R/Rs work to reduce limit the amperage, but how is the Compufire controlling how much power the stator generates? the Stator is generating a set amount based on the size of the magnet and the rotational speed (RPM) at which it spins. Unlike a car alternator with a field that can be turned on/off, the Stator is fixed at max output.

[DaveB]

I don't understand from their information where the excess voltage being generated is going. The Stator creates the power no matter what...RPM dictates just how much, but the same amount is there.

I don't know, but if I had your knowledge of electrics I'd ask Decosse on the Triumph board (among many others). See post #14 at http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade-2.html

He says the regulator "goes open" when no more juice is needed. He also says (I'm sure he's also paraphrasing the Suzuki guy who pioneered this mod) that a series regulator is easier on the stator for some reason I don't understand. If you get the answers to these questions, I hope you'll post them up for those of us who remain curious.

This is how I assumed it worked (and what I read) but I am a bit confused about how you open such a high amperage circuit without some arcing. I am not an electrical engineer, just someone who has a mechanical aptitude and basic understanding of how things work...

I'm an electrical engineer and will try and explain how a regulator works.

Think of the regulator as a valve or faucet for electricity it automatically adjusts to conduct a lot of electricity or a little which is why it is called a regulator. In actuality is does this by adjusting the firing angle of 3 Triacs or the switch on point of 3 MOSFETs, the actual mechanism is not important and there are different ways of doing it, but the result is the same it automatically regulates the flow of electricity.

The conventional shunt regulator adjusts the amount of current dumped to ground causing the stator output voltage to drop due to its internal resistance. So if it takes 40 amps to reduce the stator output voltage to the required 14.5 volts but the bike only uses 15 amps to run with headlamps on then the regulator has dump 25 amps to ground. The point being the stator always supplies 40 amps and runs at maximum output gets hot and eventually burns out.

On the other hand the better engineering solution the series regulator adjusts the flow of electricity to just allow the required 15 amps to flow with an output voltage of 14.5 volt. As the current demands of the bike change the voltage dropped across the series regulator changes to keep the output voltage at 14.5 volts no matter how much or how little current is required. So the stator only supplies the current need by the bike which in most case will be 20 amps or less hence it is not under such a high load, does not get as hot and should not burn out.

I've attached a power point with more information and explanation

Yes, I understand how the standard MOSFET and SCR type of R/Rs work to reduce limit the amperage, but how is the Compufire controlling how much power the stator generates? the Stator is generating a set amount based on the size of the magnet and the rotational speed (RPM) at which it spins. Unlike a car alternator with a field that can be turned on/off, the Stator is fixed at max output.

The stator only generates the amount of power you take from it up it its maximum load. If open circuit it generates no power. The stator windings, magnates and RPM dictate the maximum power available. Power is not generated if it is not used.

The stator generates a voltage think of voltage as the strength of the electricity i.e it's ability to over come resistance, current is then the amount of electricity that flows when a circuit is connected to it

power in watts = volts * amps.

If the stator is not connected to anything (open circuit) then it generates a high voltage I think I've read about 200 volts at 5000 RPM , but no current flows until it is connected to a circuit so with no connection it generates high voltage but no current so the actual power output is zero

200 volts * 0 amps = 0 watts of power.

The stator generates a voltage the fact that power is available does not mean it is generated or used. The generator converts mechanical energy into electrical energy so when there is no electrical load it does not put any mechanical load onto the engine i.e it is easy to rotate it. When it is connected to a circuit or the bike and current is drawn hence electrical power is taken from it it will put a mechanical load on the engine and so it is harder to rotate like going up a hill.

So the generator only produces electrical power when you take current from it otherwise it is effectively freewheeling and the mechanical load on the engine varies with the electrical power drawn from it. So the series regulator reduces the power drawn hence puts a smaller load on the engine and you'll get more mechanical power (HP) available for the bike.

[Misspent Youth]

The stator only generates the amount of power you take from it up it its maximum load. If open circuit it generates no power. The stator windings, magnates and RPM dictate the maximum power available. Power is not generated if it is not used.

The stator generates a voltage think of voltage as the strength of the electricity i.e it's ability to over come resistance, current is then the amount of electricity that flows when a circuit is connected to it

power in watts = volts * amps.

If the stator is not connected to anything (open circuit) then it generates a high voltage I think I've read about 200 volts at 5000 RPM , but no current flows until it is connected to a circuit so with no connection it generates high voltage but no current so the actual power output is zero

200 volts * 0 amps = 0 watts of power.

The stator generates a voltage the fact that power is available does not mean it is generated or used. The generator converts mechanical energy into electrical energy so when there is no electrical load it does not put any mechanical load onto the engine i.e it is easy to rotate it. When it is connected to a circuit or the bike and current is drawn hence electrical power is taken from it it will put a mechanical load on the engine and so it is harder to rotate like going up a hill.

So the generator only produces electrical power when you take current from it otherwise it is effectively freewheeling and the mechanical load on the engine varies with the electrical power drawn from it. So the series regulator reduces the power drawn hence puts a smaller load on the engine and you'll get more mechanical power (HP) available for the bike.

1. So, the magnet in the flywheel actually changes its attraction to the flywheel, depending on the load requested by the system? If no load, then the magnet is effectively de-magnetized and puts no additional drag on the motor?

2. And as I understand the difference between the shunt and series regulators, the shunt leaves the load in place, which leaves the stator's magnet fully magnetized and producing power, only to dump the unused power (I'm using "power" for lack of a more accurate/technical term, but I mean "juice") to ground, creating heat, etc, while the series regulator effectively disconnects the 3 yellow wires when no power is needed, and that de-magnetizes the stator magnet, and no drag, and no power produced to dissipate in heat, via ground, etc. If that's what happens, then it seems the series regulator needs to be more complicated/expensive than the shunt.

True?

Also, the voltage readings at 5K with the shunt regulator disconnected are in the 60 vac range.

[DaveB]

The stator only generates the amount of power you take from it up it its maximum load. If open circuit it generates no power. The stator windings, magnates and RPM dictate the maximum power available. Power is not generated if it is not used.

The stator generates a voltage think of voltage as the strength of the electricity i.e it's ability to over come resistance, current is then the amount of electricity that flows when a circuit is connected to it

power in watts = volts * amps.

If the stator is not connected to anything (open circuit) then it generates a high voltage I think I've read about 200 volts at 5000 RPM , but no current flows until it is connected to a circuit so with no connection it generates high voltage but no current so the actual power output is zero

200 volts * 0 amps = 0 watts of power.

The stator generates a voltage the fact that power is available does not mean it is generated or used. The generator converts mechanical energy into electrical energy so when there is no electrical load it does not put any mechanical load onto the engine i.e it is easy to rotate it. When it is connected to a circuit or the bike and current is drawn hence electrical power is taken from it it will put a mechanical load on the engine and so it is harder to rotate like going up a hill.

So the generator only produces electrical power when you take current from it otherwise it is effectively freewheeling and the mechanical load on the engine varies with the electrical power drawn from it. So the series regulator reduces the power drawn hence puts a smaller load on the engine and you'll get more mechanical power (HP) available for the bike.

1. So, the magnet in the flywheel actually changes its attraction to the flywheel, depending on the load requested by the system? If no load, then the magnet is effectively de-magnetized and puts no additional drag on the motor?

What ever the magnetic force between magnets and other mechanical components it is constant (does not change with electrical load) and has nothing to do with generating electrical power. The rotating magnets induce a current in the stator coils, the bigger the load or more current draw from the stator the bigger the mechanical force between them (magnets and stator coils) hence bigger load put on the engine. The magnets do not change their magnet strength the amount of current generated changes according to the electrical load applied and so changes the mechanical force between the magnets and stator. The mechanical force is a result of the stator coils effectively becoming electro-magnets as current is drawn from them, the electro magnets attract the permanent magnets in the rotator to produce a force proportional to the current drawn from the stator.

2. And as I understand the difference between the shunt and series regulators, the shunt leaves the load in place, which leaves the stators magnet fully magnetized and producing power, only to dump the unused power (I'm using "power" for lack of a more accurate/technical term, but I mean "juice") to ground, creating heat, etc, while the series regulator effectively disconnects the 3 yellow wires when no power is needed, and that de-magnetizes the stator magnet, and no drag, and no power produced to dissipate in heat, via ground, etc. If that's what happens, then it seems the series regulator needs to be more complicated/expensive than the shunt.

True?

You are correct that the series regulator is a little more complicated and hence expensive which is why they are not fitted as standard.

Also, the voltage readings at 5K with the shunt regulator disconnected are in the 60 vac range.

I stand corrected but my explanation remains the same, 200 volts must be at 11,000 RPM

[Tightwad]

Thanks for the explanation, I follow now. I am still interested in how they are opening the circuit, as this would generally create arcing (imagine unplugging something while it is in use...you see sparks etc). If this is a long term solution, I can see OEM going that way....with their volume pricing would be very competitive.

[mello dude]

This Compufire R/R was designed to be a Harley part. ------- So, jeez if you install a Harley part on a Honda, wont that whack the universe into some scary meta physical out of phase nuclear chain reaction? :biggrin:

[Beck]

This Compufire R/R was designed to be a Harley part. ------- So, jeez if you install a Harley part on a Honda, wont that whack the universe into some scary meta physical out of phase nuclear chain reaction? :biggrin:

If that is indeed the case, I do find it kind of strange that VFR owners might have to finally go to a Harley part/accesory maker to solve the years long mysteries around solving the RR issues with the VFRs... :blink:........ I'm almost ashamed to think that my older brother's Ural sidecar rig might have less electrical issues than the "modern" V4 that parks next to it. He doesn't even plug the thing on the tender regularly and it always starts and goes with no problems. What the hey???!!!! :blink:

Beck

95 VFR

[maxredline]

Okay, now how about some direction on actually wiring this beast to a 2001 for us some what challenged DYI'ers

I found this pdf. at an Aprilia site that gives you an idea of whats going on.

Compufire_Intall.pdf

[Tightwad]

Install is as easy as can be. You can even purchase the original Stator connector for the Honda style, then run a ground to the R/R (bolts under the R/R), and run positive to the battery...with a fuse of course. 30 amp fuse would be acceptable in this case.

If you want to tap into the OEM wiring harness, just connect positive to the red wires, and ground to the green wires. Again you can use an OEM style plug to make it simple.

If anyone wants to have one retrofitted to fit the OEM plugs, send it to me and for $15 I can fit the correct plugs and mail it back.

[mello dude]

Okay, now how about some direction on actually wiring this beast to a 2001 for us some what challenged DYI'ers

I found this pdf. at an Aprilia site that gives you an idea of whats going on.

So you took the plunge? Care to take some photos as you install? thxzz