New Regulator Rectifier option on the market: Ultimate Rectifier

[Stray]

Hello All, 

 

In 2017 I upgraded my 5th gen with a Shindengen 847 rectifier from a Suzuki V Strom. Going great ever since. 
 

Was looking to do the same on my 2nd 5th gen and stumbled across this outfit from the Netherlands who offer a 60A unit (SH847 is 50A). Comes with 3 year warranty, which is unheard of as even Suzuki don’t warranty the SH847. 
 

Link: https://ultimaterectifier.com/shop/voltage-regulator-rectifier-honda-vfr800-1998-2001/

 

Options for 5, 6 and 8th gens available. 

 

If it’s any good I’ll go this route as much less hassle. Might crimp and shrink instead of using the connectors, but wiring is all there. 
 

What do the electrickery gurus think? Is it legit or a scam? Is this regulator as good/better than the SH847? 
 

Stray 

[Mohawk]

I've had an Electrex World RR on mine for 10+ years since the original died not long after I got the bike. Very stable voltage output, quality kit if you are in the UK 👍

[Thumbs]

The rectifier from the 1200 VFR is rated at 50A and there’s a few for sale on eBay etc 

[JZH]

Who knows?  But the unsealed OEM-type connectors should probably be replaced with Metri-Pack 630 (or something else sealed which can handle the Amps).

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

[Stray]

On 8/7/2023 at 9:22 AM, Mohawk said:

I've had an Electrex World RR on mine for 10+ years since the original died not long after I got the bike. Very stable voltage output, quality kit if you are in the UK 👍

Nice one mate - didn’t know about Electrex. Just sent them a message. Looks like they don’t permit use of lithium iron batteries though and that’s what I’m running. Plus, their kit is same price as a SH847 kit, which is apparently the best you can buy (unless the Ultimate Rectifier can be believed). 
 

On 8/7/2023 at 4:51 PM, Thumbs said:

The rectifier from the 1200 VFR is rated at 50A and there’s a few for sale on eBay etc 

 

 Brilliant - thanks for this! Do you know if it is a series or mosfet or shunt type? 
 

13 hours ago, JZH said:

Who knows?  But the unsealed OEM-type connectors should probably be replaced with Metri-Pack 630 (or something else sealed which can handle the Amps).

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

Agreed. Connections and wire gauge seem to be the Achilles heel of these systems. 

[Mohawk]

The Electrex world one is MosFet. No Mosfet reg/rec is better than another as far as I'm concerned & I have never seen anyone test any for any length of time so how they can make claims is beyond me.

 

Anyhoo, the one on mine has successfully worked for over 10 years & 30K moles & charged my LifePO4 batteries fine. Remember to be accurate in your battery terminology. Very few made as 12v lead acid replacements are Lithium ! Which will over charge & catch fire, most are LifePO4 which will not catch fire easily.  They have 15% less raw capacity's than pure Lithium based cells & are a few grams heavier but much more tolerant of abuse. My 5th gen charges at 14.5volts, LifePO4 battery cells are nominally 3.7v so 4 in series (usually A123 cells x8, as 2x4 in parallel) gives 14.8v nominal voltage so you will never reach full charge with a stock charging system, so no overcharge 👍 

 

The worst thing about them is the clock will run them down & kill them if not kept on a maintainer.
 

Have fun.   

[Fastdruid]

On 8/7/2023 at 7:44 AM, Stray said:

Hello All, 

 

In 2017 I upgraded my 5th gen with a Shindengen 847 rectifier from a Suzuki V Strom. Going great ever since. 
 

Was looking to do the same on my 2nd 5th gen and stumbled across this outfit from the Netherlands who offer a 60A unit (SH847 is 50A). Comes with 3 year warranty, which is unheard of as even Suzuki don’t warranty the SH847. 
 

Link: https://ultimaterectifier.com/shop/voltage-regulator-rectifier-honda-vfr800-1998-2001/

 

Options for 5, 6 and 8th gens available. 

 

If it’s any good I’ll go this route as much less hassle. Might crimp and shrink instead of using the connectors, but wiring is all there. 
 

What do the electrickery gurus think? Is it legit or a scam? Is this regulator as good/better than the SH847? 

 

It is I'm sure legit but it's not using the same technology. 

 

So, going back the earlier rectifiers used SCR's to "shunt" the stator, this is effectively short circuiting it which stops it generating power *BUT* it generates heat in the coils *and* the SCR's generate heat. Over time the SCRs fail (due to the heat) and then it doesn't regulate and kills the battery. Or the stator overheats and burns through the resin that encapsulates it. 

 

Then along came MOSFETS. These can switch high power without the same kind of heat generation, so they basically replaced the SCR types, still "shunt" type regulation but the reg/rec creates less heat and so lasts longer. Same chance of killing the stator though because they're still shorting it. 

 

Finally came "series" regulators, these instead open circuit the coils which leads to far lower heat generation in the *stator*, these initially had issues with RPM limits (over which they'd basically fail to regulate) but newer ones (like the SH847) have a rev limit over that of both the 750 and 800. 

 

In summary, the SH847 is better because it's not *JUST* about the reg/rec. A series type massively lowers the temps in the stator which then lowers the chance of that burning out.

 

Unless you need your bike for commuting, the reg/rec has failed and you need something delivered tomorrow that takes 5mins to fit I wouldn't personally bother to replace with anything other than a SH847 or equivalent. 

[Fastdruid]

15 hours ago, Stray said:

 Brilliant - thanks for this! Do you know if it is a series or mosfet or shunt type? 

 

MOSFET *ARE* shunt type. The types (in increasing order of preference) are Shunt (SCR), Shunt (MOSFET) or Series (SCR)

 

I don't believe that the Series type use MOSFETS but there may be some newer ones that do. 

[vfrgiving]

What's the thought on reduced electrical load on the bike affecting lifespan of charging system components?  For example, removing halogens for LED headlights.  I've read that doing so puts extra stress on the regulator as more time is spent shunting to ground since there is less demand.  I looked up the SH847 on roadstercycle and the blurb about the SH847 for race bikes with unplugged headlights that it isn't so much for the stator but to reduce heat buildup in the regulator.  Wouldn't less time shunting to ground be beneficial for the stator (using a MOSFET regulator)?

 

I guess what I'm asking would my new stator be happier if I stuck halogens back in and removed the LEDS?  The regulator is a MOSFET, not a series.

[Grum]

1 hour ago, vfrgiving said:

What's the thought on reduced electrical load on the bike affecting lifespan of charging system components?  For example, removing halogens for LED headlights.  I've read that doing so puts extra stress on the regulator as more time is spent shunting to ground since there is less demand.  I looked up the SH847 on roadstercycle and the blurb about the SH847 for race bikes with unplugged headlights that it isn't so much for the stator but to reduce heat buildup in the regulator.  Wouldn't less time shunting to ground be beneficial for the stator (using a MOSFET regulator)?

 

I guess what I'm asking would my new stator be happier if I stuck halogens back in and removed the LEDS?  The regulator is a MOSFET, not a series.

From what I understand about the completly unregulated uncontrolled output from a simple three phase permanent magnet generator that a VFR has (very different to what's in your car) is that reducing the load on the system would only be of benefit when usng a Series type R/R.

 

MOSFET shunt type, even though they operate more efficiently, faster and with less heat loss than the older SCR type, still crudely regulates the output voltage by crushing excessive power to ground. So a shunt type has the stator working hard no matter what the load.

The Series type purely works a bit like a tap, only drawing from the Stator what's demanded by the load maintaining a stable charging voltage. So with a Series R/R reducing the electrical loads will help both Stator and R/R to operate in an even less stressful state. This is why Series type R/R's are sometimes referred to as "Stator Saving" R/R's.

 

Just for info - Virtually every 6gen Stator failure occurs in the winding region not bathed in engine oil to dissipate the excessive heat away from the Stator. Honda have added forced oil cooling on the 8gen Stator to help alleviate this problem.

 

Hope this answers your question.

Cheers.

[Fastdruid]

7 hours ago, vfrgiving said:

What's the thought on reduced electrical load on the bike affecting lifespan of charging system components?  For example, removing halogens for LED headlights.  I've read that doing so puts extra stress on the regulator as more time is spent shunting to ground since there is less demand.  I looked up the SH847 on roadstercycle and the blurb about the SH847 for race bikes with unplugged headlights that it isn't so much for the stator but to reduce heat buildup in the regulator.  Wouldn't less time shunting to ground be beneficial for the stator (using a MOSFET regulator)?

 

Yes. It's the shunting that causes the most heat build up in the stator regardless of the switching technology used in the reg/rec.  Hence why "series" reg/recs are so much better for it. 

 

The difference between MOSFETS and SCR in the reg/rec is purely that MOSFETS generate less heat. So the reg/rec doesn't get as hot and doesn't die as quickly. It will still get hot and will still eventually fail (heat is the killer for all electrical components like that) but it will take much longer before it fails. 

 

 

7 hours ago, vfrgiving said:

I guess what I'm asking would my new stator be happier if I stuck halogens back in and removed the LEDS?  The regulator is a MOSFET, not a series.

 

Yes. 

 

For a bike with a shunt type regulator, regardless of type you ideally want the load to be so high that it never has to regulate. Obviously in the real world that can't easily be managed due to the vagaries of charging the battery, temperature etc.

 

LED bulbs that reduce the load will make things worse here not better.  In mine (still the original reg/rec) I use a 50W LED headlight bulb. It puts out roughly 4x the light of a standard H4 but only very slightly less load. Worth checking the specs on yours, not worth changing back for the sake of 5w for example.  

 

 

 

 

[vfrgiving]

Thanks for the input. Changing back to halogen would make a huge load difference on my VFR.  I currently have x2 H4 LED installed that are rated at 13W.  Stock gen 5 Halogens are 45W, but those proprietary Honda bulbs are expensive.  I know normal 60W H4s will work (bend the bottom tabs in) as I've ran those for thousands of miles in the past.  So switching back to halogen I would actually increase bike's electrical load 30W over stock

 

I see roadstercycle bolded a simplified shopping explanation: Stock bike, street bikes, with stock lights = FH020AA Mosfet
Race bikes, track days+unplugging headlights, Led lighting Rotax powered Buell's and Aprilia motorcycles and stator eaters = SH847

 

cheers all, I think I'll put the LEDs on the shelf and revisit them if I decide for the series upgrade.

[vfrgiving]

14 hours ago, Grum said:

Honda have added forced oil cooling on the 8gen Stator to help alleviate this problem.

 

I see there also a phase control sensor on the stator assembly area.  36140-MJM-D01

 

I wonder if this plays a part in increased stator life too.

[Cogswell]

On 8/9/2023 at 6:43 PM, Grum said:

 

Just for info - Virtually every 6gen Stator failure occurs in the winding region not bathed in engine oil to dissipate the excessive heat away from the Stator. Honda have added forced oil cooling on the 8gen Stator to help alleviate this problem.

 

Hope this answers your question.

Cheers.

 

I'm going to guess that if someone figured out a way to retrofit that 8th gen design to add the forced oil cooling to the 6th gen alternator that spares for 8th gens would quickly dry up. I don't think it's simple - there seems to be some plumbing involved and maybe drilling of the block in to an oil passage that it's likely not practical.  Stators on 6th gens are likely to remain a wear item that owners replace periodically so as not to be stranded with a dead battery.  Just one of the quirks of owning those bikes. 

[Captain 80s]

11 hours ago, Cogswell said:

 

I'm going to guess that if someone figured out a way to retrofit that 8th gen design to add the forced oil cooling to the 6th gen alternator that spares for 8th gens would quickly dry up. I don't think it's simple - there seems to be some plumbing involved and maybe drilling of the block in to an oil passage that it's likely not practical. 

 

Seb did and there was a bit of modding involved.

 

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/108681-the-ultimate-vfr800/page/5/

[jefferson]

A mod we did on the stators on our Yamaha Visions involved drilling a small hole in the center of the bolt that held the flywheel on. There was pressurized oil behind it and this allowed a spray of oil onto the stator. They did the same thing on the Ventures.

[Fastdruid]

9 hours ago, Captain 80s said:

 

Seb did and there was a bit of modding involved.

 

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/108681-the-ultimate-vfr800/page/5/

 

Took me a while to find it. Hopefully this link works

 

Anyway, that's a nice change by Honda that will undoubtedly reduce the temperature of the stator, On the older ones (and by that I mean the 750's as well as the 800's) there is relatively little oil in that section normally.