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Barn Find - need help please


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Hmmm, 2-volts from which wire? sounds pretty terminal for ECU as it should be full battery voltage.

 

Further confirm by measuring both fuse-A and fuse-B. This is only sure way to confirm fuse is good or bad. Numbers of times I've heard, "Fuse looks good!" but actually didn't conduct electricity...

 

uc?export=download&id=1a-e-pO9zop_qo5HKF

 

 

Yep, test bank-angle sensor according to manual. In winter, one on my CBR600RR acts up and I have to tap/jiggle it for bike to start. I suspect there must be some kind of fluid or gel inside for dampening mechanism.

 

Get one of these 'noid lights https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004FEN84M/ . Will help with confirming injector  & ignition grounding pulses. 

 

Also handy to have oscilloscope around...

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Not trying to hijack the thread, but I'm about to start digging into the non-running 99 i bought... Danno would that exact noid light work on a 5th gen and a 6th gen ?

 

 

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Yup, basically hook it up to injector connector with alligator clips.  And ignition coil terminals.

 

Will flash when ECU grounds injectors or coils to fire. Would look like this on oscilloscope. Line is high (+12v) most of time due to no flow, then goes low when ECU grounds other side to fire.

 

uc?export=download&id=1JSdr1AF_0VD1LlAjQ

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@Jroberts3The wax idle unit actuates, based on coolant temp. When the bike is cold, the starter valves are closed, which enrichens the mixture like a choke. As the bike warms, the starter valves will open, creating a metered air leak, which leans the mixture. The wax idle unit is supposed to be doing this, so the rider isn’t having to actuate a lever (‘98-‘99 bikes) and the bike automatically controls the fuel mixture. It’s a fairly crude system, but, does the job, when everything works as it should. Again, if the valves aren’t being actuated, it’s the equivalent of not operating the choke on a carbureted engine and we both know how starting a carbed engine goes, without a choke. 

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15 hours ago, Grum said:

You should be seeing 12v on both the Black/White wires of the Fuel Cut Relay base, with Ignition to On, Kill Switch to RUN.

By confirming 12v at this point also confirms both Engine Stop Relay and Bank Angle Sensor(Engine Stop Sensor) are OK.

Your Starter/Cranking circuit is not effected by the state of both BAS or the ESR. However, ALL power to your EFI system is removed if the BAS is triggered or a faulty ESR = Cranking but no Start.

Refer to the Service Manual and wiring diagram!

 

Have you confirmed the state of the two fuses I previously mentioned? Either one of these fuses blown will kill the voltage to both relays ESR and FCR.

 

Your FCR socket looks melted beyond repair. Would certainly be replacing the relay socket. Given you had no previous issues with Fuel Prime there was most likely No issue with the Fuel Cut Relay itself.

 

You have most likley fried the fuel pump Ground control section of the ECM. If there was a major short within the ECM you would most certainly be blowing at least one of the fuses mentioned.

If after repairing the melted FCR relay base and refitting the relay And fuses mentioned are ok And you have confirmed 12v on the Black/White wire And your Fuel Pump doesn't prime at switch on along with most likley your Fi light being On - Then your ECM is toast!

 

As for an ECM replacement, can't really help you with that, hopefully others may be able to advise.

But I will say to make sure you get exactly the same part numbered item as there are a few variations for the 5gen ECM based on country, year etc.

 

Good luck, sad you've definitely gone backwards....as they say, shit happens.

Thanks Grum, the 20 & 30 fuses are in tact as well as all the others.  The FCR plug has a lot of dielectric grease making it look melted, but its in good shape, no melting or burning whatsoever.  I will test for 12v at Engine stop and Bank Angle, should I test the relays too?  Apply 12v and listen for click?  I plan to order an ECU from E-bay and will confirm part #'s.  Fortunately there are a few available for $150 - $200 and I am still ahead value wise on this bike. I only paid $1200 for it, though stings nonetheless

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No, really test relays by measuring for continuity between input & output terminals when they're activated. Solenoid can click to eternity, but if internal switch is burnt or broken, you won't have contact anyway.

 

Even better is functional test by measuring relay in its natural environment. This is with ALL wiring and components in place. Measure by back-probing relay socket. This also tests wiring, which is problem more often than components themselves.

 

1. measure voltage going into relay's activation coil. Useless to bench-test if relay doesn't get power when installed on bike.  Voltage = ???

 

2. measure for ground on other activation line when it's activated. Resistance to ground = ohms ?? 

 

3. measure voltage going INTO relay's input terminal. Voltage = ???

 

4. activate relay, measure voltage going OUT of relay's output terminal. Voltage = ???

 

Don't replace ECU yet, I'm not convinced it's problem. The 2v supply voltage also powers tonnes of other things. Such as both relays to ECU and fuel-pump. Relays won't work on 2v.

 

Also test of  BAS is ground, not power. Follow test procedures in manual.

 

Idea is to test entire system as installed rather than individual components. Most of time, they'll bench-test just fine, but system still won't work because the assembly is not correct. Often break in wire or corroded connector. This is discovered by probing and measuring junctions for power or ground without disassembling anything. Then compare those numbers with what it should be to find faults. 

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Suggest starting at the ESR. Do you have 12v measured at the Black/Pink wire?

This is unswitched 12v straight from fuse B in your fuse box.

 

And......can you Please be specfic as to where you are measuring the strange 2v at the FCR. You have NOT mentioned anything regards the Black/White wire we've asked you to check.!!!

Assume you Do have the Engine Stop Relay plugged in and BAS is properly connected!

 

All this chasing around relays and the BAS is not making much sense! Prior to you shorting the 12v to the ECM at the Fuel Cut Relay base, you had fuel prime at every switch on, this means the BAS, ESR and FCR were all operational.

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In  addition to the great advice above, I would also suggest Craig's List or even a motorcycle dealer instead of a barn when looking for the next bike.

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11 hours ago, ducnut said:

@Jroberts3The wax idle unit actuates, based on coolant temp. When the bike is cold, the starter valves are closed, which enrichens the mixture like a choke. As the bike warms, the starter valves will open, creating a metered air leak, which leans the mixture. The wax idle unit is supposed to be doing this, so the rider isn’t having to actuate a lever (‘98-‘99 bikes) and the bike automatically controls the fuel mixture. It’s a fairly crude system, but, does the job, when everything works as it should. Again, if the valves aren’t being actuated, it’s the equivalent of not operating the choke on a carbureted engine and we both know how starting a carbed engine goes, without a choke. 

Sorry Sir.

That's not quite right.

When the engine is cold the IAC wax unit is fully Opening the Starter Valves to create the fast idle speed, bypassing the closed butterflies. Fuel enrichment is sensed from the ECT sensor for which the ECM will alter the duty cycle of the fuel injectors to richen the mixture when cold.

As engine temp rises the Starter Valves are moved to the Closed position and stop at the warm idle adjustment setting. Fuel enrichment backs off as the ECT sensor tells the ECM of higher engine temps.

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If I had half the knowledge, and 1% of the patience of Danno and Grum, I would be so much further ahead on all my bikes...😬

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8 minutes ago, Grum said:

Sorry Sir.

That's not quite right.

When the engine is cold the IAC wax unit is fully Opening the Starter Valves to create the fast idle speed, bypassing the closed butterflies. Fuel enrichment is sensed from the ECT sensor for which the ECM will alter the duty cycle of the fuel injectors to richen the mixture when cold.

As engine temp rises the Starter Valves are moved to the Closed position and stop at the warm idle adjustment setting. Fuel enrichment backs off as the ECT sensor tells the ECM of higher engine temps.

If the starter valves are closed, when warm, then, why when they’re synced (hot temp and valves closed) it makes a difference in idle/run quality? It would seem to me, if they’re closed, those adjustments wouldn’t make a difference. But, they do, which led me to the idea they’re actually open, when the bike is hot. 

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21 hours ago, ducnut said:

If the starter valves are closed, when warm, then, why when they’re synced (hot temp and valves closed) it makes a difference in idle/run quality? It would seem to me, if they’re closed, those adjustments wouldn’t make a difference. But, they do, which led me to the idea they’re actually open, when the bike is hot. 

They are definitely closed when hot. Starter valves only have an effect at small throttle openings and are balanced at normal operating temps to ensure optimum warm idle and small throttle opening is evenly effected by the SV's.

Note - The 5gen SV's I believe are best set with an offset check the forum for this, whereas 6gen and 8gen SV's are set balanced.

 

Post Edit 8th Oct. - For clarification, SV's are Never Fully Closed. They are moved towards the closed position but stop at the idle speed adjustment screw setting. SV bypass air is required for warm engine idle, if they were fully closed engine would stall.

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Thank you Grum, DannoXYZ and Ducnut, I really appreciate your suggestions and patience as I try to make sense of everything.  This is what I did this evening:

 

1)  Installed all components

2)  Tested all fuses for continuity - all fuses have continuity using a voltmeter

3)  Battery voltage test:  

                Key off = 13.22v

                Key on = 12.49v

 

4)  Tested ESR blk/pnk = 12.87v

 

5)  FCR test

           Key off =  Blk/wht to Brn          0.01v

                            Blk/wht to Brn/Blk   0.00v

     

           Key on =  Blk/wht to Brn        12.2v

                           Blk/wht to Brn/Blk   0.69v   (earlier I said it hovered around 2v and I believe I was mistaken.  I am video recording and writing everything down now, Very sorry about that)

6)  BAS test

           Key off =  Grn to wht   0.00v

           Key on =  Grn to wht   12.02v

           Removed one bolt and loosened the other side, turned key on and lowered one side of the sensor until ESR clicked, repeated test 2 times.

 

I did not measure resistance in the relays because I am confused about the terminology and parts identification and don't want to make another mistake.  Plus I am guessing the voltage test points to a fried ECU rendering the ohms test moot.  What I mean is I am unclear as how to identify the the activation coil vs solenoid click and the corresponding terminal.  Also not sure how to apply this technique in the real world "measure for ground on other activation line when it's activated."  Again, I stopped out of an abundance of caution.  There is some good news though, the ECU on E-bay is only an hour away and the part numbers match exactly (3877-MBG-A01).  I am off work tomorrow but not available to work on the bike Friday thru Sunday as I am house/dog sitting for a friend.

 

After I get the ECU, should I perform the tests again, or only if fuel pump doesn't prime?  Also the bypasses on the throttle bodies are held open (when cold) approx. 1/16 to 1/8inch.  From what I've read here, that is correct.  When it ran the one time for approx. 2min the coolant temp made it to 135.  Should I test the wax unit with an electric heat gun?  Next steps?

 

Thank you again everyone

 

IMG_20211006_211506344_HDR.jpg

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All of your steps can be negated by simply confirming that you have solid 12v at the FCR on the Black/White wires with Ignition to On. Your step 5 has, in a roundabout way confirmed that. As already mentioned...There is no need to worry about the ESR or BAS!!!

 

You should be probing the Black/White wire and your other black meter lead should be on a known Ground or preferably the battery Negative terminal. Not the Brown wire which is the power wire for the Fuel Pump!

If probing the Brown wire with the relay fitted (with the other meter lead grounded), then you would normally ONLY see 12v on that wire for about 2 to 3secs at switch on while the FCR is energised by a good ECM. If you're not getting this then it points to a stuffed ECM.

 

TRY THIS - So, now if you have the FCR fitted, and everything else is back to normal, and you try an Ignition Switch On with the Kill Switch to Run, If the fuel pump does not prime, and perhaps the red Fi light could be fully ON. You have blown the ECM.

 

As previously stated, if either of the mentioned fuses haven't blown, then the only thing stopping them from blowing when you applied the ECM short, is blowing open the Ground link the ECM makes internally to control the FCR! = Dead ECM.

 

For Info - After the 2 to 3sec Fuel Pump prime at switch on. The ECM will ONLY energize the FCR to run the Fuel Pump if it is detecting Crank Shaft pulses, during cranking and run conditions.

 

I sincerely hope that if you do need a new ECM that the replacement is guaranteed to be fully functional?

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16 hours ago, Jroberts3 said:

I did not measure resistance in the relays because I am confused about the terminology and parts identification and don't want to make another mistake.  Plus I am guessing the voltage test points to a fried ECU rendering the ohms test moot.  What I mean is I am unclear as how to identify the the activation coil vs solenoid click and the corresponding terminal.  Also not sure how to apply this technique in the real world "measure for ground on other activation line when it's activated."  Again, I stopped out of an abundance of caution.  ...

 

IMG_20211006_211506344_HDR.jpg

Sorry, I gave you most comprehensive process to cover every possible issue. Not necessary to do that kind of detail. Simpler to just follow path of electricity and test for +12v at various junctions. Only if you don't get +12v where there should be, then you may want to investigate little deeper. So from earlier report, if you get pump-prime when key ON, pretty much everything you looked at is OK. Relays are fine because power makes it through them all to pump. Same with BAS. If you measured for +12v along entire path to pump, it would be present. No need to investigate any further.

 

For future reference, looking at relay above, you can see that activation-coil is on terminals #1 & 2. One of those should have +12v full-time and other side is grounded by ECU. The power input is on #3 terminal and should also have +12v full-time. Then when relay is activated, you'll want to measure for output-power on #5 terminal. Again, completely unnecessary at this point because we know power is making it out of relays and getting to pump... or was..

 

So if you put everything back together, do you get pump-prime with key ON and red-light on dash before cranking? If not, ECU is probably blown.

 

Next step in troubleshooting if you get back to where you were before with pump-prime is to inspect ignition-coil and fuel-injector signals from ECU. Manually triggering spark or injectors does nothing useful unless you plan on manually triggering spark and injectors with jumper wires while you're riding. Next steps:

 

- connect 'noid-light to ignition-coils and injectors to see if ECU is triggering them. 

- if no injector or ignition signal,  test cam & crank sensor, measure their impedances and compare to values in manual

- analyse cam & crank sensor waveforms with oscilloscope, do they meet specs given in manual?

- measure all other sensors: MAP, TPS, ECT, 

- measure vacuum going to MAP and FPR when cranking (use vacuum-T to tap into hose)

 

All without disassembling anything (except for disconnecting one injector connector at time to test). You don't want to change the system until you've found a bad component as indicated by numbers you measured.

 

 

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Thank you DannoXYZ and Grum, that was very helpful.  I installed the new ECU and the fuel pump primes good again.  Still no start, not even a little fire like before.  Will double check spark later.  No codes or smell of fuel.   I ordered the Noid light from the Amazon link.   Testing the coils with the noid light, do I need a special attachment or use alligator clips?  I am helping a friend this weekend and cant work on the bike till Monday.  Noid light is arriving Sunday.

 

Thanks again, I couldn't do this without your help!!

 

 

 

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1. should test for power going to each injector connector and ignition coil. Key ON, kill-switch ON, measure voltage at black/white wire on each injector and coil (8 measurements total. Voltage = ???

 

2. test for ECU grounding pulses to injectors and coils with 'noid light. I have alligator clips on test-leads with other end soldered to 'noid light. Then I shove little brad-nails into back of connectors and clamp alligator clips on heads of nails.  Or disconnect injector connector and shove nails where injector terminals go.

 

For circuits with completely sealed connectors that's not easy to backprobe, I'll skewer the wires with small sewing needles. Then clamp alligator clips onto those.

 

3. Another test is measuring actual fuel-pressure in rail. Unusual for them to fail in open position and not build any pressure, but it has happened.

 

4. Functional end-result confirmation test is to pull fuel-rail with injectors attached. Place little cups under each injector and crank for 5-10s. Verify that volume in each cup is identical.

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Wow, incredibly fast ECM delivery. Glad you're back to having your Fuel Pump prime again.

Further to what Danno has suggested.....

 

- Just thinking might well be worth trying a new set of plugs, they could be fouled, make sure they are the correct type. NGK CR9EH-9 or Denso U27FER9.

- Check the vacuum hose to the MAP sensor, and all other vac hoses are in correct position and no leaking, cracked or kinked hoses, there is a hell lot of vacuum hose plumbing around a 5gen throttle body!

- What is the state of the airfilter? Clean or was the said "mouse nest" in it?

- Did you fully drain and clean the tank of what was in there before filling with fresh fuel?

 

With the replacement ECM you will definitely need to confirm both Spark and all Injectors firing.

 

Good luck.

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Just now, DannoXYZ said:

oh yeah, what about fuel filter?

Thought about that to, however his pump flow test was good.

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19 hours ago, Grum said:

They are definitely closed when hot. Starter valves only have an effect at small throttle openings and are balanced at normal operating temps to ensure optimum warm idle and small throttle opening is evenly effected by the SV's.

Note - The 5gen SV's I believe are best set with an offset check the forum for this, whereas 6gen and 8gen SV's are set balanced.

Actually, I don't think that's  quite right either. The SV's are a controlled and adjustable air bypass around the butterflies, and are responsible for all air flow at idle, so they are always open to some extent even when the wax unit or manual "choke" lever is in the hot position, at which point their opening is set by the idle screw. When they are moved to the "cold" position by the wax unit or choke lever, the SV's are more open to allow greater airflow and faster idle.

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Agree Terry. My mention of closed when hot was to the point of the idle stop screw position, yes there still has to be air bypass via the SV's for warm idle, they are never fully closed the engine couldn't idle if that was the case.

In my earlier post I mentioned -  "As engine temp rises the Starter Valves are moved to the Closed position and stop at the warm idle adjustment setting"

Sorry for any confusion.

Cheers.

 

IMG_1175.PNG

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Greeting everyone, hope your weekends were great!  The noid light arrived and I was able to do some testing.

First though I would like to clarify some things brought up in the posts.  The ECU:  By pure luck the E-bay seller was only an hour drive from my house so I picked it up.  His listing has a video of the bike running that it came from so I felt confident about it.  Air Filter:  The filter is OEM and looks tired but functions, no rips, tears or excessive dirt buildup.  I've tried starting with and without the filter, no difference (The mouse nest was between the cylinders near the thermostat and oil pressure sensor (under the throttle bodies) .  Fuel Tank & Pump:  When I drained the fuel tank it had a very small amount of "dust sized" particles floating around.  I wiped them up with a rag and it wasn't much, the inside of the tank is clean, no rust.  The fuel filter and stainless steel mesh are in great condition, the filter has no debris stuck to it or in it, and the material is in tact without tears or rot.  Spark Plugs:  The spark plugs are new and correct number:  NGK CR9EH-9, they have approx. 2min run time but evidence of fouling is starting to appear in the right cylinders.  Note:  this is the same condition with the plugs that came with the bike.  See Pics.

 

Today I was able to test with the noid light and measure voltages at the injector plugs.  I also tested for spark and made a quick video.  I had to stop testing because the battery became low - I was cranking it a few days earlier and forgot to put the battery on the charger.  I also tested some of the vacuum lines but the needle bounced all over the place - I'm guessing this is normal during cranking.  Maybe I need a better gauge that holds the highest value?  Please advise.

 

   To Do List:  I still need to test MAP voltage and vacuum, TPS and other sensor voltage/resistance.  I am also waiting for a Peak Voltage Adapter to arrive for testing coil output.  

 

  The flooding (more wet), condition on the two right cylinders has me puzzled and thinking I should replace all the hoses and "T"s.  The downside is the unique hoses take 7-10 days to ship.  I will continue testing electrical while waiting for the hoses.

 

Again, I want to thank everyone for their suggestions, please keep them coming. 

 

Battery Condition:  12.57v Key off,     12.00v Key on

Noid light fired on all injectors

 

  Injector 1)  11.75v

  Injector 2)  11.78v

  Injector 3)  11.76v

  Injector 4)  11.81

 

   

Plug type.jpg

cylinder 1 left rear.jpg

Cylinder 2 left front.jpg

IMG_20211011_201434590.jpg

IMG_20211011_202433261.jpg

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Don't bother paying for the vacuum hoses.  Just buy some silicone vacuum tubing on amazon and cut to length.  I've done this on both my 800's when I took the throttle bodies off and refreshed everything.  I think I paid $20 for enough hose to use on both bikes.  Beware though that the two "L" tubes that connect the airbox to the starter valves (that the "choke" lever operates) aren't 8mm, they are something else.  I just put mine back in and it works fine still.  I also reused all the plastic T junctions that the vacuum hoses connect to.  They weren't cracked, so I'm sure they're fine.

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Some good checking there Jr.

However, Spark Plugs, your Front Right is not cylinder 3 its 4, and Rear Right is not 4 its 3.

FRONTS = 2 Left and 4 Right.

REARS = 1 Left and 3 Right.

 

Coils 1 and 3 are mounted close together. Is there any chance you've accidently crossed the primary wires over? 

- Check that all coil wires are the correct color code. All coils have a Black/White +12 feed wire and the other wire is switched ground via the ECM.

Coil 1 = Blue/Black wire.

Coil 2 = Yellow/White wire.

Coil 3 = Red/Blue wire.

Coil 4 = Red/Yellow wire.

- Confirm these wires and confirm the high tension spark lead is going to the correct cylinder.

- Double check all your throttle body hoses. Are the two L shaped vent hoses for the starter valves connected to the underneath of the airbox? 

Confirm the vacuum hose is good and connected to the MAP sensor.

- Confirm your injector wires are the correct color code for the appropriate cylinder.

As per the ignition coils all injectors have the Black/White +12v feed wire and the other is a switched ground via the ECM.

So...

Cylinder 1 Rear Left = Pink/Blue wire

Cylinder 2 Front Left = Red/Yellow wire

Cylinder 3 Rear Right = Pink/Green wire

Cylinder 4 Front Right = Pink/Black wire.

Make sure these are correct.

 

- With reference to your wet plugs for cylinders 3 and 4 the two right side cylinders. Try removing and blocking off the vacuum hose from the FPR. This will completely eliminate the FPR potentially leaking and flooding 3 and 4, and this shouldn't have an effect on the engine at least starting, worth a try!

 

- The injectors you've replaced, are they an exact replacement for the OEM's?

 

- As you've had the throttle bodies off, check that the throttle body connecting boot clamps are tight and not letting additional air in.

 

Lastly are you still NOT seeing any Fi flashing codes? You must have the Sidestand down, Kill switch to Run, and Ignition switch to On before any active code will be displayed.

 

Definitely keep your battery well charged with all the testing and cranking you're doing.

 

Good luck, keep us posted.

 

 

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