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What is your oil?

What is your Oil Choice?  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. What is yout oil of choice for your VFR? Both are 10-30W.

    • Honda Pro GN4 Oil
    • 4T Full synthetic Oil
    • 4T Blended Synthetic Oil


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3 minutes ago, BusyLittleShop said:

Honda recommends their own brand 4 stroke oil or equivalent... API
service SF,SG or Higher... so that means SN auto oils qualify because

the service is higher and the oil is equivalent...

 

Compare virgin samples...

M1versusGN4.jpg

 

Auto oil these days have friction modifiers (to save fuel) that are not great for most wet clutches - for that reason a better choice is an oil that also meets JASO MA. 

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3 hours ago, Marvelicious said:

 

 

I have a suspicion that the need to avoid the friction modifiers in automotive grade oils has become a non-issue over time. I'm guessing clutch materials have improved to the point where it just doesn't matter anymore... though I have no data to support this suspicion.

There is mounting evidence that NO matter what brand (Amsoil or Mobil)... NO matter what grade (30 40 50)...  NO matter syn or min... owners are meeting and exceeding their mileage expectations...

The only difference is how much HP are you wasting in unnecessary oil drag???

Between a 30 and 50 is about 4HP...

OilTubeViscosityTest.jpg

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6 minutes ago, RC36B said:

 

Auto oil these days have friction modifiers (to save fuel) that are not great for most wet clutches - for that reason a better choice is an oil that also meets JASO MA. 

Friction modifiers additives are only a small percent of the total oil product and help
the base oil do things that it otherwise could not... Additives fall into several basic
categories but Moly, Phosphors and Zinc are the most often used friction modifiers... what
ever small percent of FM employed they will not defeat a wet clutch in good working order...

 

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I was thinking of the clutch slipping issue that is usually the justification for motorcycle specific oil... but that is definitely interesting. 2hp/grade then? 

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19 minutes ago, Marvelicious said:

I was thinking of the clutch slipping issue that is usually the justification for motorcycle specific oil... but that is definitely interesting. 2hp/grade then? 

 All wet clutches will reach a high mileage point in their life and loose grip no matter what the oil...

 

Some of my customers will spend $1,500 for an exhaust on the promise of 2 extra HP only to drop 4HP in unnecessary oil drag... so instead gaining 6HP they gained 2HP

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8 minutes ago, BusyLittleShop said:

 All wet clutches will reach a high mileage point in their life and loose grip no matter what the oil...

 

Some of my customers will spend $1,500 for an exhaust on the promise of 2 extra HP only to drop 4HP in unnecessary oil drag... so instead gaining 6HP they lost 2HP

Interesting point, though I will say it depends on the vehicle. I have a car that specs 20wt oil. The previous year with an identical engine spec'ed 30wt. Well, it burns about a quart between changes if I run the 20wt, while I lose maybe half a pint of the 30wt (low tension rings are such a great idea... 🙄). I'd rather eat a couple horsepower!

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12 minutes ago, BusyLittleShop said:

Friction modifiers additives are only a small percent of the total oil product and help
the base oil do things that it otherwise could not... Additives fall into several basic
categories but Moly, Phosphors and Zinc are the most often used friction modifiers... what
ever small percent of FM employed they will not defeat a wet clutch in good working order...

 

I have never tried non MA/MA2 oil for my old 4th gen (with newer OEM clutch). I think there were many "my clutch is slipping" stories a few years back but not so much these days - could it be that 1) people have learned to use JASO MA or 2) newer friction plates are compatible with non MA oil?

 

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1 minute ago, RC36B said:

I have never tried non MA/MA2 oil for my old 4th gen (with newer OEM clutch). I think there were many "my clutch is slipping" stories a few years back but not so much these days - could it be that 1) people have learned to use JASO MA or 2) newer friction plates are compatible with non MA oil?

 

I'd put money on #2. You don't hear those stories about newer bikes and I'm POSITIVE the general public hasn't gotten any smarter! 

  • Haha 1

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1 minute ago, Marvelicious said:

I'd put money on #2. You don't hear those stories about newer bikes and I'm POSITIVE the general public hasn't gotten any smarter! 

Good point 🙂

 

I just checked a couple of clutch plates - could not find any requirements in regard to JASO

 

I also checked the 2017 VFR 800 manual - Honda recommend JASO MA only (well, I guess you could say that is just a "safe" recommendation)

 

 

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59 minutes ago, RC36B said:

I have never tried non MA/MA2 oil for my old 4th gen (with newer OEM clutch). I think there were many "my clutch is slipping" stories a few years back but not so much these days - could it be that 1) people have learned to use JASO MA or 2) newer friction plates are compatible with non MA oil?

 

MA and JASO are extra cost oil can labels so its serves no benefit for
Mobil to label their SN Auto oil like they do their 4T... but that
omission is not proof it will not pass MA or JASO... savoy owners
understand that clutch slip is product of mileage not whether their
oil can label states MA or JASO... I think MA and JASO would do us a
greater favor if they tested every oil under the sun and list not only
a pass but also fails...

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1 hour ago, Marvelicious said:

I'd put money on #2. You don't hear those stories about newer bikes and I'm POSITIVE the general public hasn't gotten any smarter! 

We don't hear it because no one complains about clutch slip on a new bike...
but on about the 27K to 57K range is when containments may build up to
point where the clutch begins to loose its grip... this is usually discovered by

the owner during WFO (Wide Fooking Open)throttle like at a track day...

 

If you wish high mileage clutch life then you have to invest is some
good old sweat equity... because at the first sign of slip it doesn't
automatically mean your clutch is tired and worn out or that your
clutch plates are wore too thin because you can Mic them to
determine serviceability and within the factory specifications...

Under scrutiny you'll find that your slip was due to normal
glazing and contaminates...

 

Deglazing clutch plates ain't nothing new... no sir... back in the 70s
it use to be part of every savvy rider's maintenance plan... and for
some reason that all change during the 90s... why fix what you can buy
new is the what you hear now a days... but if your interested in
making your clutch bite good as new then roll up your sleeves and read
on...

 

Inspect the friction plates for glazing... make sure you have plenty
of material to work with... your shop manual states clutch thickness
in thousands of an inch or mm...

 

First removed the contaminants with Acetone... pick a hard surface to lay
over a 600 grit black dry emery paper... rotate the clutch plate in a
circle... you're just busting the glaze... don't get carried away
remove too much material... You should end up with a friction plate
looks dull like a new one as opposed to a shinny glazed one... recheck
thickness...

gallery_3131_51_129667.jpg


Next check the pressure plates for bluing caused by localized heat...
make sure they are not warped... consult the manual for a thickness
range... now removed the contaminants with Acetone and wire wheeled
them to erased the blue and also to generally scuff up the surface...
you should end up with a dull surface free of Blue marks...

gallery_3131_51_40098.jpg

 

Bike on its side is a simple way to shift the oil level to an angle in order to remove the clutch cover without spillage...
Have a new gasket standing by...

 

 

 

 

ClutchFix2.JPG

ClutchFix3.JPG

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4 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

I love a good oil thread... a good thread will challenges your technical knowledge and long held beliefs plus you may actually learn something new... 

After going all they way through this thread, I have to say I have enjoyed it greatly!  400,000 mi bikes and real oil analysis.....and someone who did experience clutch slippage and fixed it by going back. I think I am really going to enjoy this forum....where do I contribute ?

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14 minutes ago, BusyLittleShop said:

We don't hear it because no one complains about clutch slip on a new bike...
but on about the 27K to 57K range is when containments may build up to
point where the clutch begins to loose its grip... this is usually discovered by

the owner during WFO (Wide Fooking Open)throttle like at a track day...

 

If you wish high mileage clutch life then you have to invest is some
good old sweat equity... because at the first sign of slip it doesn't
automatically mean your clutch is tired and worn out or that your
clutch plates are wore too thin because you can Mic them to
determine serviceability and within the factory specifications...

Under scrutiny you'll find that your slip was due to normal
glazing and contaminates...

 

Deglazing clutch plates ain't nothing new... no sir... back in the 70s
it use to be part of every savvy rider's maintenance plan... and for
some reason that all change during the 90s... why fix what you can buy
new is the what you hear now a days... but if your interested in
making your clutch bite good as new then roll up your sleeves and read
on...

 

Inspect the friction plates for glazing... make sure you have plenty
of material to work with... your shop manual states clutch thickness
in thousands of an inch or mm...

 

First removed the contaminants with Acetone... pick a hard surface to lay
over a 600 grit black dry emery paper... rotate the clutch plate in a
circle... you're just busting the glaze... don't get carried away
remove too much material... You should end up with a friction plate
looks dull like a new one as opposed to a shinny glazed one... recheck
thickness...

gallery_3131_51_129667.jpg


Next check the pressure plates for bluing caused by localized heat...
make sure they are not warped... consult the manual for a thickness
range... now removed the contaminants with Acetone and wire wheeled
them to erased the blue and also to generally scuff up the surface...
you should end up with a dull surface free of Blue marks...

gallery_3131_51_40098.jpg

 

Bike on its side is a simple way to shift the oil level to an angle in order to remove the clutch cover without spillage...
Have a new gasket standing by...

 

 

 

 

ClutchFix2.JPG

ClutchFix3.JPG

Let me clarify what I meant by "newer"... Most of the slipping clutch, auto oil issues I've ever been aware of have revolved around stuff from the early 80s or older. I haven't run across many references to the same kind of "oil related" slipping clutch issues on bikes made later, especially after around 2000... a few years after the industry had to figure out good alternatives to asbestos. I'm saying my theory is that friction materials have improved to the point where they just aren't as sensitive to these issues as they once were. 

 

So if I understand your take on it correctly... to paraphrase, you're saying that oil brand/grade has never really been that big a factor in clutch slipping and it was just something the marketing departments jumped on so they could sell some "motorcycle specific" oil? Seems plausible, though I'm not sure our ideas are entirely mutually exclusive.

 

I briefly considered deglazing clutch plates on an old XS650 a few years ago... They were still in spec, but I opted for new, mostly because it seemed likely that materials had improved since 1977. As for my VFR, the improvement in feel from running the 6th gen master with the 5th gen slave hasn't worn off yet... gotta keep the improvements incremental to keep the smile on my face.

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2 hours ago, Marvelicious said:

 

 

So if I understand your take on it correctly... to paraphrase, you're saying that oil brand/grade has never really been that big a factor in clutch slipping and it was just something the marketing departments jumped on so they could sell some "motorcycle specific" oil? Seems plausible, though I'm not sure our ideas are entirely mutually exclusive.

 

We can share our takes thanks to the net and VFRD...

 

The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil is not a constant... we can't established a
constant when one owner swears so and so oil caused my clutch slip
whereas an other owner equally swears so and so oil never made my
clutch slip... but under close visual scrutiny we see that both
clutches began to slip due to normal glazing and contaminates that
build up over mileage... mileage has always been the constant and
never the brand or type of oil...

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4 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

We can share our takes thanks to the net and VFRD...

 

The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil is not a constant... we can't established a
constant when one owner swears so and so oil caused my clutch slip
whereas an other owner equally swears so and so oil never made my
clutch slip... but under close visual scrutiny we see that both
clutches began to slip due to normal glazing and contaminates that
build up over mileage... mileage has always been the constant and
never the brand or type of oil...

I definitely agree up to a point... there are so many variables involved beyond just oil that any evidence is essentially anecdotal unless you have access to dealership service records. Since I don't have access to that info, it leaves me giving at least a touch of credence to anecdotal evidence. Even just given what we have to work with here on VFRD there's a pretty big mileage range, you mention clutch slipping starting around 27k, and I suspect we can find members here who've run over 100k without ever touching their clutch. Does oil account for the difference, or is it riding style or any of a hundred other factors? Basically, we don't have enough clean data for science, so we fall back on speculation. 

 

Specifically, I'm speculating that clutch material has gotten better. I'm also willing to accept the speculation that mileage is probably a bigger factor than oil. Just to further muddy the waters, I suspect that there probably are some legitimate cases of oil causing a slipping motorcycle clutch, but that they're probably mostly related to "miracle" oils like the old PTFE formula Slick 50 from back in the day.

 

My personal VFR expertise is limited to a sample size of exactly one VFR,  and I really only have knowledge of what it has been through in the miles I've owned it. Everything else is just people talking on the internet, which is all this is to anyone else. It's an oil thread... why spoil the fun by bringing science into it. 😆

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Mileage does NOT cause clutch wear & neither does your oil. Imagine a relaxed rider on a bike that covers 200 miles a day in a relatively flat part of the world with little traffic & open roads. There is potentially 6 up shifts from a stop then a stop at the end. 

 

Now take an aggressive rider in a hilly area covering 50 miles a day. There's potentially thousands of shifts per day, with clutch slip for aggressive launches. Now WHO will wear their clutch out first ?

 

The Slippiest oil will cause the most clutch slip, thats a given. Manufacturers design their engines & clutches to work well with a certain type of lubricant. But due to advances in oil technology or more likely the expense of selling new bikes with the best oil, they don't.  So if the bike came with dino oil from the factory then its good enough if not over worked. If you choose to use super slippy synthetic oil, which potentially is better for your bearings, cams & general engine wear. If that means your clutch is less efficient in gripping & thus wears out quicker then that may be a price worth paying!

 

As always YMMV 

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All I know for sure is that, for some reason Amsoil makes all three VFR's I've owned shift better than other brands.  I don't care why,  just use it for that reason.  Years of oil threads here and elsewhere have concluded that no particular oil has ever caused an engine failure or been proven to shorten the engine life of a VFR.  If I'm wrong, the details would be interesting to read about.

 

Oil is like beer.  Everyone has their favorite.......; ) 

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3 hours ago, Bent said:

Oil is like beer.  Everyone has their favorite.......; ) 

 

 

 

 

ETC   :D

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27 minutes ago, Samuelx said:

 

 

 

 

ETC   😄

Great ads... terrible beer!

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6 hours ago, Bent said:

Oil is like beer.  Everyone has their favorite.......; ) 

What's the best beer? :beer:

😎

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Don't run your engine on beer it's not as good as oil 😀😜

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...also, don't drink motor oil. It's not as good as beer!

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On 9/27/2019 at 3:16 PM, BusyLittleShop said:

I love a good oil thread... a good thread will challenges your technical knowledge and long held beliefs plus you may actually learn something new... 

Hey Larry!

There you go using all them damn facts again!   You know facts have no meaning these days! LOL

I use the 5-30 full syn Mobil 1 you recommend in all my bikes including my 02 VFR that I've put an easy 106,000 grandpa type miles on. In fact I Never get out of second gear( at least doing wheelies, get'en old).

 

You'all got to remember that newer members haven't had the chance to beat that dead horse yet related to oil use! 

 

BLS, I'm glad to see your still trying to help educate our members!!!

 

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On 9/28/2019 at 11:57 AM, Marvelicious said:

Great ads... terrible beer!

Horrible, horrible stuff. I had a friend who was a beer distributor before the "Taste Great, Less Filling" commercials started. He said the beer

sold like crazy after the commercials started. Who says marketing doesn't work.

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5 minutes ago, FJ12Ryder said:

Horrible, horrible stuff. I had a friend who was a beer distributor before the "Taste Great, Less Filling" commercials started. He said the beer

sold like crazy after the commercials started. Who says marketing doesn't work.

Certainly not the beer companies or the oil companies! 

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