CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Okay I am going to try and shed some light on the inner workings of the air box for you. Due to noise regulations, the air box (and bike) must be below a certain decibel, to a certain RPM (RPM at peak horse power divided by 2) So a flap is used to control sound levels to that rpm and then opened once that rpm threshold is passed (say about 5500 rpms). A rough calculation is done (by the engineers) for exactly how many CFM are being pumped through the engine at 5500 RPM and a snorkel is designed and tuned for that CFM, to have venturi effect to allow the smallest given inlet area (maximum noise suppression), while still allowing a decent amount of air flow for the given rpm that the bike needs to be quiet until. Once the engine passes 5500 rpms, noise restrictions are no longer needed and the flap is opened, to allow maximum air flow into the airbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 14 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said: Back Widow Performance Downpipes + Euro ECU "Germany" + Second Snorkel (no flapper) + K & N + PC lll Custom Fuel Map + Staintune High Level (no baffle) Black widow 1998/1999 header clones, rebadged sandy bike spares, with very possibly horrendous internal welds and merges. Euro ecu with similar to US fuel/ignition mapping for regular US 87 ([RON+MON]/2) Octane fuel and restrictive oem airbox/ header/muffler Second airbox noise suppressor, ignoring the flap necessary to flow enough CMF for peak RPM. K&N air filter that requires no fueling changes, because it flows no additional CFM than the OEM air filter. Power Commander with fuel only mapping and no ability to optimize ignition timing. Staintune slip-on, very nice slip on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 14, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 52 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said: Black widow 1998/1999 header clones, rebadged sandy bike spares, with very possibly horrendous internal welds and merges. Euro ecu with similar to US fuel/ignition mapping for regular US 87 ([RON+MON]/2) Octane fuel and restrictive oem airbox/ header/muffler Second airbox noise suppressor, ignoring the flap necessary to flow enough CMF for peak RPM. K&N air filter that requires no fueling changes, because it flows no additional CFM than the OEM air filter. Power Commander with fuel only mapping and no ability to optimize ignition timing. Staintune slip-on, very nice slip on. Exceptions of Known Factors: 1) Black Widow Performance Downpipes are not exact clones of 98-01 OEM headers as follows: 1) Material is 304 Stainless 2) Pipe routing less restrictive ( less bends) 3) No compression to accommodate center stand 4) 01 Only - No Cat Unknown Factors: 1) Exact differences between programming variables of Euro ECU "G" Germany and ECU "A" America Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 50 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said: Exceptions of Known Factors: 1) Black Widow Performance Downpipes are not exact clones of 98-01 OEM headers as follows: 1) Material is 304 Stainless 2) Pipe routing less restrictive ( less bends) 3) No compression to accommodate center stand 4) 01 Only - No Cat Unknown Factors: 1) Exact differences between programming variables of Euro ECU "G" Germany and ECU "A" America 1) The black widow headers (just as motad/delkevic/sandy bike spare/generic ebay headers etc) are cheaply made 1998/1999 clones, (not 98-01) . I am starting to think that you do not know what 1998/1999 headers are, how they differentiate from 00-01, 02-13 and +14 headers .... 1 Again) 304 stainless has nothing to do with performance. 2) Lol refer to picture of horrendous internal merging 3) Lol it is mandral bent please post photo of this "compression". 4) The cat is not restrictive, the piping diameter, merges and lengths are. 1) STILL TUNED TO RUN ON REGULAR FUEL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted November 14, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 CR, I think you've reached the point of insanity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 14, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 31 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said: 1) The black widow headers (just as motad/delkevic/sandy bike spare/generic ebay headers etc) are cheaply made 1998/1999 clones, (not 98-01) . I am starting to think that you do not know what 1998/1999 headers are, how they differentiate from 00-01, 02-13 and +14 headers .... 1 Again) 304 stainless has nothing to do with performance. 2) Lol refer to picture of horrendous internal merging 3) Lol it is mandral bent please post photo of this "compression". 4) The cat is not restrictive, the piping diameter, merges and lengths are. 1) STILL TUNED TO RUN ON REGULAR FUEL. What you're doing is drawing an overall conclusion based upon one example, very unfair to folks in the local business. The products you mentioned that are actually made in China have both poorer fit and workmanship. You're not doing anybody a real service here especially the local shops who in in fact producing high quality goods. In the end your means and methods of determining what's quality are totally flawed and the DynoJet results will prove the in "facts and figures" that the Black Widow Performance Downpipes do " in facts and figures" produce extremely acceptable results and are an excellent choice and value. I can tell from the way the do business to how the bikes actually performing. If you truly had something real, you would be able to show a side by side example. The excessive merge would be due to a excess at the point of " fit up " tack weld and is not necessarily true of each and every system produced. When you are proven wrong and the VFR produces over 110 hp, then what will you have to say ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer zupatun Posted November 14, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 On 11/13/2016 at 10:19 AM, 2k1GoneWild said: Except Black Widow Perfomancr Exhaust Systems is in the business of producing superior exhaust products that not only actually out perform but also fit up perfect and will last a lifetime. All this talk about Black Widow not being a performance exhaust system is rubbish ! The boys at Black Widow are top notch craftsmen and deserve credit and appreciation for making available such a wonderful, fantastic product. Plus when VFR gets on the DynoJet you can be sure there will be a call of order for "Black Widow bashing retractions" ? All the Superbike teams are using Black Widow exhaust...it must be performance...or a wonderful fantastic product...and all the Superbike teams are turning away from Akrapovic and Termignoni...because of the wonderful fantastic performance of top notch craftsmen adding 20hp at the dyno... Sorry, not drinking the cool-aid... LiftTruck got 112 on the dyno at 900ft above sea level with Two Bros headers, TB Carbon exhaust, K&N, stock airbox and PCII tuning. Not all dynos are the same--it all varies...Who knows what the "real" hp was...all it shows is that he got 112hp on that dyno that day...and it improved over stock by a few percent. It is Good...but it is a very moderate bump over stock. Mohawk and others (like the Dynamo Humm folks) spend way lots of time and effort with cams and boring things out to get significant output gains...I've seen and ridden with three folks have have gone this route--two Dynamo Humm bikes and one supercharged bike...if you want to unleash the beast, headers and exhaust and PC/tuner is just scratching the surface...nowhere near what is done to a superbike to unleash the beast. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 What you're doing is drawing an overall conclusion based upon one example, very unfair to folks in the local business. The products you mentioned that are actually made in China have both poorer fit and workmanship. You're not doing anybody a real service here especially the local shops who in in fact producing high quality goods. In the end your means and methods of determining what's quality are totally flawed and the DynoJet results will prove the in "facts and figures" that the Black Widow Performance Downpipes do " in facts and figures" produce extremely acceptable results and are an excellent choice and value. I can tell from the way the do business to how the bikes actually performing. If you truly had something real, you would be able to show a side by side example. The excessive merge would be due to a excess at the point of " fit up " tack weld and is not necessarily true of each and every system produced. When you are proven wrong and the VFR produces over 110 hp, then what will you have to say ? It's not one example lol. There are a lot of black widow/Sandy's bike spare horror stories. They are not a local business lol. Present day delkivic and motad are no worse fitting than your sandy bike spares/ black widow. I was under the impression that they were all UK made. I am doing everyone who is in the market for a header a favor, by reminding them that this is not a performance header and you are just spouting unvalidated jiberish that was already proven false five years before you ever got here. If anyone is looking for a header that actually makes power, then they have to either have a custom header with 35-38mm equal length primaries made, hunt down a two brothers or Erion Racing header or get on the wait list for the upcoming Tyga headers. Again, black widow has nothing to do with local shops. So please stop and find another angle. Your dyno jet results won't prove a thing, as you are not doing factory header vs black widow header testing. So there are no facts, just a sheet with no baseline... "You can tell by the way the do business to how the bike is actually performing"? Lol okay. You have literally the most unscientific means of testing that I have seen thus far on the internet lol. "If you truly had something real, you would be able to show a side by side example." Follow your own advice. WITH A BASELINE DYNO OR AT LEAST TRAP SPEEDS. I have shown that my quarter mile trap speed increased from factory 116-118 up to 128 with various mods. Most of which was attributed to the install of ACTUAL PERFORMANCE HEADERS. If you dyno over 110whp, it won't mean a damn thing, as dynos are to be a comparison tool, not an end all be all number. You have no baseline. For all we know you could have dyno'd 115 stock (with enough correction) and gone down to 110whp. DYNOS MEAN NOTHING. HOW ABOUT THIS? DRIVE A FEW MORE MILES PAST GEORGIA, TO FLORIDA AND I WILL PAY FOR YOUR BASELINE AND DO BACK TO BACK TESTING WITH YOU. BECAUSE YOUR DYNO IS WORTHLESS WITH OUT A BASELINE TO GO OFF OF. Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryker Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 All this bragging abou black widow Got the me thinking this guy works for black widow or trying to be some kind of ambassador for them. Once and for all, the header is crap! Unless you are prepared to cut it open and grind out he horrible merges, and weld it all back together. And this is a fact, i'm not the only one who had this problem. Saying thid is an excellent performance header is a direct lie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryker Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Maybe we just should stop answering this guy, this is ridicilous. Troll?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 All the Superbike teams are using Black Widow exhaust...it must be performance...or a wonderful fantastic product...and all the Superbike teams are turning away from Akrapovic and Termignoni...because of the wonderful fantastic performance of top notch craftsmen adding 20hp at the dyno... Sorry, not drinking the cool-aid... LiftTruck got 112 on the dyno at 900ft above sea level with Two Bros headers, TB Carbon exhaust, K&N, stock airbox and PCII tuning. Not all dynos are the same--it all varies...Who knows what the "real" hp was...all it shows is that he got 112hp on that dyno that day...and it improved over stock by a few percent. It is Good...but it is a very moderate bump over stock. Mohawk and others (like the Dynamo Humm folks) spend way lots of time and effort with cams and boring things out to get significant output gains...I've seen and ridden with three folks have have gone this route--two Dynamo Humm bikes and one supercharged bike...if you want to unleash the beast, headers and exhaust and PC/tuner is just scratching the surface...nowhere near what is done to a superbike to unleash the beast. Matt Yup, RVFR put down 110whp with a simple slip on, filter and tune. WITH FACTORY 1998/1999 HEADERS. Dynos mean nothing with out a baseline. I can guarantee Mohawks bike would do about 130whp on rvfr's dyno. That isn't calling RVFR a liar, it is just pointing out, that their has to be a baseline to compare to or its not of much use, beside looking at the shape of the powerband and the AFR. Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted November 14, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 17 minutes ago, stryker said: Maybe we just should stop answering this guy, this is ridicilous. Troll?? I've seen trolls before on other websites and their behaviour was very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 14, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 53 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said: It's not one example lol. There are a lot of black widow/Sandy's bike spare horror stories. They are not a local business lol. Present day delkivic and motad are no worse fitting than your sandy bike spares/ black widow. I was under the impression that they were all UK made. I am doing everyone who is in the market for a header a favor, by reminding them that this is not a performance header and you are just spouting unvalidated jiberish that was already proven false five years before you ever got here. If anyone is looking for a header that actually makes power, then they have to either have a custom header with 35-38mm equal length primaries made, hunt down a two brothers or Erion Racing header or get on the wait list for the upcoming Tyga headers. Again, black widow has nothing to do with local shops. So please stop and find another angle. Your dyno jet results won't prove a thing, as you are not doing factory header vs black widow header testing. So there are no facts, just a sheet with no baseline... "You can tell by the way the do business to how the bike is actually performing"? Lol okay. You have literally the most unscientific means of testing that I have seen thus far on the internet lol. "If you truly had something real, you would be able to show a side by side example." Follow your own advice. WITH A BASELINE DYNO OR AT LEAST TRAP SPEEDS. I have shown that my quarter mile trap speed increased from factory 116-118 up to 128 with various mods. Most of which was attributed to the install of ACTUAL PERFORMANCE HEADERS. If you dyno over 110whp, it won't mean a damn thing, as dynos are to be a comparison tool, not an end all be all number. You have no baseline. For all we know you could have dyno'd 115 stock (with enough correction) and gone down to 110whp. DYNOS MEAN NOTHING. HOW ABOUT THIS? DRIVE A FEW MORE MILES PAST GEORGIA, TO FLORIDA AND I WILL PAY FOR YOUR BASELINE AND DO BACK TO BACK TESTING WITH YOU. BECAUSE YOUR DYNO IS WORTHLESS WITH OUT A BASELINE TO GO OFF OF. Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk That's sounds like a plan. I have a few days off Thansgiving week, we can put several issues to rest so the global VFR community will have knowledge with valid validation. Can you do the custom PC lll fuel mapping ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 8 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said: That's sounds like a plan. I have a few days off Thansgiving week, we can put several issues to rest so the global VFR community will have knowledge with valid validation. Can you do the custom PC lll fuel mapping ? I'll pay for a $50 baseline to settle some internet rumors, but the $300 tuning is on you lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 14, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 24 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said: I'll pay for a $50 baseline to settle some internet rumors, but the $300 tuning is on you lol. That's fine, you settle rumors and drive off with a custom tune, but I will bring the ECU "A" and OEM Airbox to settle what adds power. I'm thinking your in Orlando ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 20 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said: That's fine, you settle rumors and drive off with a custom tune, but I will bring the ECU "A" and OEM Airbox to settle what adds power. I'm thinking your in Orlando ? I already have a custom tune, for fuel and ignition timing, done by street/auto tuning with four wide band Bosch o2 sensors. I would simply do a pull, back to back with you, to prove that your mods are negligible and can not hang with actual performance parts. You don't need to bring a second air box, just pull those sound reducing snorkels out and do another pull. It would be worth the fifty dollars, just to shut the few people on the internet up, that think that the euro ecu is some sort of magical rc45 power box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 14, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 Except you have a RapidBike and I have a PC lll, so I still need a custom fuel map at the end, I could return the PC lll and see if I can swap it for a RapidBike, I'll contact Evan and find out if SGT can get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epyon007 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Now we're talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 45 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said: Except you have a RapidBike and I have a PC lll, so I still need a custom fuel map at the end, I could return the PC lll and see if I can swap it for a RapidBike, I'll contact Evan and find out if SGT can get one. You still need a map not me, lol I'm not paying for your mapping. I don't know what/who Evan at SGT is, but I highly doubt they are a Rapid Bike Dealer. Just continue your route with power commander, it will only make the different that much more dramatic, get it tuned and head to Orlando. I will pay for your baseline dyno, so we can see an actual back to back comparison of: Real performance headers Properly modified air box Fuel and ignition tuning vs A catless Ebay header Double snorkel Fuel only tuning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 14, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 1 minute ago, CandyRedRC46 said: You still need a map not me, lol I'm not paying for your map. I don't know what/who Evan at SGT is, but I highly doubt they are a Rapid Bike Dealer. Just continue your route with power commander, it will only make the different that much more dramatic, get it tuned and head to Orlando. I will pay for your baseline dyno, so we can see an actual back to back comparison of: Real performance headers Properly modified air box Fuel and ignition tuning vs A catless Ebay header Double snorkel Fuel only tuning Euro ECU "G" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Just now, 2k1GoneWild said: Euro ECU "G" Okay sure that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 What exactly do you think is different about the "Euro G ECU"? Do you think the Fuel mapping or Ignition mapping is different? Or do you think there is so sort of other hidden magic in there? You have a power commander, so fuel mapping will not matter one bit. The euro G ECU is still tuned to run on 87 octane, so ignition mapping couldn't be that different. So magic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 14, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 32 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said: What exactly do you think is different about the "Euro G ECU"? Do you think the Fuel mapping or Ignition mapping is different? Or do you think there is so sort of other hidden magic in there? You have a power commander, so fuel mapping will not matter one bit. The euro G ECU is still tuned to run on 87 octane, so ignition mapping couldn't be that different. So magic? Actually it's classified as "unknown" but there is a "noticeable" difference when you switch them out and engine braking is less, plus the bike can be considered a "Euro Version" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 So are you hoping for a half degree of ignition timing in there for some unknown reason?Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 14, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 14, 2016 10 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said: So are you hoping for a half degree of ignition timing in there so some unknown reason? Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Dunno it's a known unknown but PC lll has fuel maps for Euro VFR's, so for $130- seemed like a possible power prospect, nobody really knows exact variables of those ECU from 2001, only the final testing might show possible anybody power curve differences. Here is a decent info on ECU re flash vs PC lll : http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=page&id=20&chapter=1 Sent from my iPhone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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