Member Contributer luigi Posted October 27, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 27, 2014 Hi to all. As title says, i have problem with 3rd gear. Suddenly, meanwhile shifting down before a corner, passing fron 4th to 3rd i was found myself in neutral. At the moment i tought a fault of mine, but not. Trasmission gears have a problem. Shifting down or shifting up, in either situations the 3rd gear don't engage. In the other gears transmission work perfectly, shifting up it enough move two times the lever to pass from 2nd to 4th gear smoothly and shifting down too, is possible passing from 4th to 2nd if the bike speed is low enough. Someone else have my same problem? I know that the engine must be disassembled, but i would like to know if someone else had my experience before. Thanks to all. Luigi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted October 27, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 27, 2014 It's pretty rare, but Wera910 (Michael) had transmission trouble on his 5th Gen a few years ago. I don't recall the specifics, and I think he may have swapped engines rather than repair. Maybe he'll see this and offer his thoughts, or you could PM him. I had trouble on my Ninja 636 track bike. In second gear, once I rolled off the throttle, it would jump back into 3rd. It was caused by worn dogs on the back side of the gear. I think I replaced 2nd and 3rd and maybe a shift fork and some clips. I'm not sure what it takes to split the cases on the VFR. Of course the Ninja was easier due to the swing arm mounting to the frame as opposed to the engine, as the VFR is. Just drain the fluids and drop the engine out. I had my VFR frame off over the winter, and it's pretty involved. (Every once in a while I get a false neutral upshifting between 5th and 6th. I'm hoping it's just a sloppy left foot and not signs of wear.) By the way, is it the track or street VFR you are having the trouble with? Michael was also doing track days often with his VFR when his trans went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misspent Youth Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 My response doesn't help you, but I've never heard of that problem before in more than 10 years on/monitoring VFR boards. Unless it's the gear selector mechanism (can access w/o splitting cases), sounds like you'll have to find another engine/trans (may be easiest/cheapest) or pay to split the cases for a look (and freshening, while inside). Gear teeth, shift forks/drum, and gear dogs, are all possible problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Terry Posted October 27, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 27, 2014 There's nothing in the selector mechanism that would do this sadly so the fault must be within the cases. I would stop riding immediately as you could have a broken off part on the loose in there and you don't want that jamming in the gears. I'd think you have a shift fork problem maybe where this engages with the shift drum or reaches in between gears. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFRBert Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Hi to all. As title says, i have problem with 3rd gear. Suddenly, meanwhile shifting down before a corner, passing fron 4th to 3rd i was found myself in neutral. At the moment i tought a fault of mine, but not. Trasmission gears have a problem. Shifting down or shifting up, in either situations the 3rd gear don't engage. In the other gears transmission work perfectly, shifting up it enough move two times the lever to pass from 2nd to 4th gear smoothly and shifting down too, is possible passing from 4th to 2nd if the bike speed is low enough. Someone else have my same problem? I know that the engine must be disassembled, but i would like to know if someone else had my experience before. Thanks to all. Luigi. On the Dutch VFR forum this problem is mentioned before. There is a technician, who has repaired several VFR/Magna engines. He said he needed about 20 hours of labor, about 300 Euros parts. So finding a complete used engine is much cheaper. Sometimes you will find them for about 150 Euro's There's nothing in the selector mechanism that would do this sadly so the fault must be within the cases. I would stop riding immediately as you could have a broken off part on the loose in there and you don't want that jamming in the gears. I'd think you have a shift fork problem maybe where this engages with the shift drum or reaches in between gears. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The side of the gear wheels crumble. The dutch technician talked about a hardening problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 A similar problem happened to a friends 4th Gen - yep, split the cases to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted October 28, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 28, 2014 On the Dutch VFR forum this problem is mentioned before. There is a technician, who has repaired several VFR/Magna engines. He said he needed about 20 hours of labor, about 300 Euros parts. So finding a complete used engine is much cheaper. Sometimes you will find them for about 150 Euro's The side of the gear wheels crumble. The dutch technician talked about a hardening problem. 20 hours seems like a lot. In any case dropping and replacing the engine is going to be 80-90% of that, so doing that bit yourself will save you a lot. You could probably split the cases and just bring the lower section with the transmission in it to a shop that you trust for them to inspect the gears and forks, etc. I did that with a CBR600 F2 a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Terry Posted October 28, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 28, 2014 On the Dutch VFR forum this problem is mentioned before. There is a technician, who has repaired several VFR/Magna engines. He said he needed about 20 hours of labor, about 300 Euros parts. So finding a complete used engine is much cheaper. Sometimes you will find them for about 150 Euro's The side of the gear wheels crumble. The dutch technician talked about a hardening problem. 20 hours seems like a lot. In any case dropping and replacing the engine is going to be 80-90% of that, so doing that bit yourself will save you a lot. You could probably split the cases and just bring the lower section with the transmission in it to a shop that you trust for them to inspect the gears and forks, etc. I did that with a CBR600 F2 a few years ago. I did just that with my old RF900; pulled the engine out and took it to the dealer workshop, so only paid for the splitting of the cases and the new parts. The VFR is a bit more complicated but should not be beyond anyone's skills with a bit of patience. I've read elsewhere where it is easier to lift the frame off the engine/swingarm assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFRBert Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 To split the cases of a VfR engine you have to remove the cilinder heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Terry Posted October 29, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 29, 2014 Wow, I checked the service manual and you're quite right about that Bert! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrcapn Posted October 29, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 29, 2014 Yes, and the lower case is holding the crank in so new main bearings. Basically you'll end up with the cylinders with the pistons still in them and everything else in pieces on the floor. I have two motors with bad 2nd gears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted October 29, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 29, 2014 Sounds like for that much headache, with all the used motors around it's just easier to buy another low mileage unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted October 29, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 29, 2014 Was wondering if the gear problems are all with higher mileage units? thxz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MBrane Posted October 29, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 29, 2014 Bet your countershaft 6th gear looks like this one: This happened to me back in April at 74K miles. The dogs on countershaft 6th are what engages 3rd. I replaced countershaft 3rd too since it was scarred from the broken dogs. The biggest problem I had was waiting on parts. One of the gasket kits was on back order for several months. I eventually found it in stock with some searching. Everything else inside the engine looked great so I just cleaned it up, and put it back together. The bike had shifting issues since I got it with 18K. It shifts better than it ever did now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luigi Posted October 30, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 It's pretty rare, but... By the way, is it the track or street VFR you are having the trouble with? Michael was also doing track days often with his VFR when his trans went. Hi Ken Trouble is on the road bike. I've always used the bike in a "sporty way" but always with clutch in shifting gears. Only few times i shifting up without clutch, but very rarely. Ciao, Luigi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luigi Posted October 30, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 ....Unless it's the gear selector mechanism (can access w/o splitting cases), sounds like you'll have to find another engine/trans (may be easiest/cheapest) or pay to split the cases for a look (and freshening, while inside). Gear teeth, shift forks/drum, and gear dogs, are all possible problems. There's nothing in the selector mechanism that would do this sadly so the fault must be within the cases. I would stop riding immediately as... Yes, is not the selector mechanisn, i've checked before remove engine from the frame. I've took a great risk but i've rode for 20/25 miles before stop. When i had the problem i was going to work, and once arrived i took the risk to return to home. Maybe i was lucky... Ciao, Luigi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luigi Posted October 30, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 On the Dutch VFR forum this problem is mentioned before. There is a technician, who has repaired several VFR/Magna engines. He said he needed about 20 hours of labor, about 300 Euros parts. So finding a complete used engine is much cheaper. Sometimes you will find them for about 150 Euro's The side of the gear wheels crumble. The dutch technician talked about a hardening problem. Yes, i know that is a expensive repair if made in a workshop. But i'm proceeding to repair by myself. Is not the first time that i open an engine. Yesterday i've finished to remove the engine from frame and i assure you that i worst part of all work. About the spare cost, i've found the fork at 40 euros at piece. If the broken part is something else... i don't know. Ciao, Luigi. 20 hours seems like a lot. In any case dropping and replacing the engine is going to be 80-90% of that, so doing that bit yourself will save you a lot. You could probably split the cases and just bring the lower section with the transmission in it to a shop that you trust for them to inspect the gears and forks, etc. I did that with a CBR600 F2 a few years ago. I just finished to remove the engine and i need about 7 hours, i'm not a mechanic pro, but i don't think that 20 hours to remove, opening and repair the engine and reassemble the bike is so far from reality. The CBR 600 F2 engine is much easier to remove. Ciao, Luigi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luigi Posted October 30, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 I did just that with my old RF900; pulled the engine out and took it to the dealer workshop, so only paid for the splitting of the cases and the new parts. The VFR is a bit more complicated but should not be beyond anyone's skills with a bit of patience. I've read elsewhere where it is easier to lift the frame off the engine/swingarm assembly. To split the cases of a VfR engine you have to remove the cilinder heads. Wow, I checked the service manual and you're quite right about that Bert! Hi. Not so easy as you read, Terry, not so easy.... :blush: Checkin service manual it seems to me that i can keep the heads assembled. To access to gears it seems enough splitting the crankcase e remove the lower half. :mellow2: Ciao, Luigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luigi Posted October 30, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 Was wondering if the gear problems are all with higher mileage units? Hi Mello This is an hard answer to give. Someone say yes, someone else told me that this is just a misfortune. Anyway i must see what's wrong inside. My opinion is that the fork is not the problem, i think something about a gear. Ciao, Luigi. Bet your countershaft 6th gear looks like this one: This happened to me back in April at 74K miles. The dogs on countershaft 6th are what engages 3rd. I replaced countershaft 3rd too since it was scarred from the broken dogs. The biggest problem I had was waiting on parts. One of the gasket kits was on back order for several months. I eventually found it in stock with some searching. Everything else inside the engine looked great so I just cleaned it up, and put it back together. The bike had shifting issues since I got it with 18K. It shifts better than it ever did now. Hi MBrane I cant see the pic on the PC that i'm using now, but i think to have your same problem. Have you removed the heads to open the crankcase? Ciao, Luigi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted October 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 A spare engine with heads removed just arrived in my garage to tinker with, and I noticed some bolt heads on the top of the case that may not be accessible with the rear head on. Just behind the joint of the rear head with the case are bolts, and with the head on it, I wonder if the bolts won't come out because the head will be in the way? I can get pics in a bit if I have confused the matter. I had my frame off last year, but I didn't do the work all at once. So I don't know how long it took me. I had a friend with a shop a few years ago, and he used to always quote 10 hours for getting the engine out and back in on any job that required the engine out. Of course that was usually pure sports bikes, generally GSXRs and the like. Those are pretty simple, and my two previous track bikes were F2 and Ninja 636. Also simple to drop the engine on both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFRBert Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 A spare engine with heads removed just arrived in my garage to tinker with, and I noticed some bolt heads on the top of the case that may not be accessible with the rear head on. Just behind the joint of the rear head with the case are bolts, and with the head on it, I wonder if the bolts won't come out because the head will be in the way? I can get pics in a bit if I have confused the matter. I had my frame off last year, but I didn't do the work all at once. So I don't know how long it took me. I had a friend with a shop a few years ago, and he used to always quote 10 hours for getting the engine out and back in on any job that required the engine out. Of course that was usually pure sports bikes, generally GSXRs and the like. Those are pretty simple, and my two previous track bikes were F2 and Ninja 636. Also simple to drop the engine on both. On the Dutch VFr forum a few years back someone gave a complete description of his engine overhaul. To acces al bolts, the heads have to be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luigi Posted October 30, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 A spare engine with heads removed just arrived in my garage to tinker with, and I noticed some bolt heads on the top of the case that may not be accessible with the rear head on. Just behind the joint of the rear head with the case are bolts, and with the head on it, I wonder if the bolts won't come out because the head will be in the way? I can get pics in a bit if I have confused the matter. Hi Ken. Yes, if you post pics it can be useful. Thank you. Ciao, Luigi On the Dutch VFr forum a few years back someone gave a complete description of his engine overhaul. To acces al bolts, the heads have to be removed. :sad: The Dutch forum have not the option of English language. Can you post the search key in your language to find in that forum? Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFRBert Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Unfortunately older topics disappeared but you could try to contact the technician, who does overhauls. His name on vfroc.nl/forumVFR is Dutchgixxer. http://www.vfroc.nl/forumVFR/index.php?showtopic=13764&page=3 Maybe google translate will help you translate the Dutch forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted October 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 Here is looking down on the rear of the engine with the rear head removed. You can see the bottom of #1 cylinder above the bolt with a green head. Here is from the side with the rear head stuck on for perspective. This is from the sprocket side of the engine. I would think there is not enough space for the bolt to come up out of the case. Maybe not enough room to clear all the threads on that bolt? No idea if there are other issues with splitting the cases, as I haven't done it on the VFR. This is just the first one that jumped out at me while looking over this engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luigi Posted October 30, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2014 Here is looking down on the rear of the engine with the rear head removed. You can see the bottom of #1 cylinder above... Thank you for thee pics. Ken. I wil keep you informed about. Unfortunately older topics disappeared but you could try to contact the technician, who does overhauls. His name on vfroc.nl/forumVFR is Dutchgixxer. http://www.vfroc.nl/forumVFR/index.php?showtopic=13764&page=3 Maybe google translate will help you translate the Dutch forum. Thank you Bert! Bet your countershaft 6th gear looks like this one: Now i see the pic and yes, i have the same your opinion, something of this kind is happened in trasmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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