At a crossroads

[Monk]

I appreciate all the thoughtful posts and words of encouragement, but nobody has addressed the real topic at hand: how you feel about drastically changing the lives of those around you, if Zeus forbid, something bad happens. When I ride, I'm not thinking about bad things happening. I'm actually enjoying the ride. As others have mentioned, it's a kind of meditative state - while thoroughly aware of my surrounding, I'm simultaneously thinking about life. It's wonderful. However, no matter how wonderful riding is, an no matter how much it completes my life, there is a very ugly reality: that something really bad can happen in a split second. It's already happened to so many of us, but we continue to ride because we love it and because we can. Some of us have nerve damage as a result of wrecks. Some of us can't walk as well as we used to. Some of us have aches and pains that make life a little more difficult, but we continue to ride because we love it. Few people, other than riders, understand how/why we'd continue riding if we've already crashed, it's kind of anti-Darwinian (self preservation).

But that's not what this thread is about. It's about how riding affects the lives of those who love us, and whether it's fair to them. I don't think responses like "it's a personal decision" answer this. If I could ride the rest of my life and only risk breaking bones or death, and not becoming a paraplegic, I'd have no problem riding (even though dying from a wreck would devastate my loved ones, which is selfish too, not to mention that breaking bones could affect my ability to perform my job, which could affect my career, which is also selfish). Furthermore, paralysis and severe brain trauma as a result of a crash are not that rare. It's a very realy possiblity and that's why I'm discussing it.

I thought I did address it. It's you girlfriends choice knowing you ride.... If she doesn't want to be around if you were to wreak and be bed ridden the rest of your life, it's her choice to stay with you now or not, or to stay with you if it did happen.... Everyone has to make their own choices.....

As we have said it's your choice what you want to do, we're just telling you how we deal with it..... What ever you choice, you're still a friend of ours.......... Hope you work it out.

[obryap]

I lost an uncle in a fatal motorcycl accident, have a cousin that was in a serious motorcycle accident, and sat in the hospital with my wife when she crashed on a motorcycle. I too am well aware of the dangers that all riders face. But when I look at all the other things we face on a daily basis that could also end or drastically change our lives, whether it be work related or at play, I still choose to ride. Since my wife has bought a bike and we have been taking trips together, we have had a blast. Just getting away from the day-to-day grind, away from the stress of work, bills, and children (not that they are bad) we have grown closer. We have talked this over and understand the risk, but this our decision. Your decision may be different, for different reasons, and its not up to me to judge. I hope you find the answer you are looking for.

[Ryanme17]

I appreciate all the thoughtful posts and words of encouragement, but nobody has addressed the real topic at hand: how you feel about drastically changing the lives of those around you, if Zeus forbid, something bad happens. .

I see what you're saying now, and I do worry about these things, too. I break it down into the types of burdens an injury could cause:

1. Financial burden.

Good insurance will take care of much of this, but won't cover all medical bills or the fact that we might not be able to work certain jobs if injured.

2. Physical burden on others around you.

3. Emotional burden on others around you.

If you were injured and could not take care of yourself you put yourself in a situation where you feel like your loved ones would HAVE to take care of you. But this is the key point, they would not HAVE to take care of you, they would either choose to do so or would choose not to do so. There are social pressures that state that family will take care of us in such a situation and this is where the burden comes in. If you make it clear to your loved ones that they aren't obligated to do anything for you, would this alleviate this? Then it would be their choice whether they want to take care of you or not. I, personally, have difficulty accepting help from others, and even at times accepting love from others. But who am I to question other people's choices?

4. Physical burden on yourself.

Your concerns so far are very selfless, and perhaps you're a better person than I, but I also do worry about the long term results of injury. This can very from complete paralysis to aches and pains that might never go away. Either way I don't this to happen.

Thoughts?

[BonusVFR]

One more thing.... You don't have to be hurt to become a vegetable, it can happen from a normal life, nerve disorder, Alzheimers,etc.

I think about this more than I want to, because since I've retired and moved back to my home town it seems like everyone I grew up with are dying all around me, and watching my Dad(94) slowly deteriorate, having done nothing more than play golf his whole life. At some point you either die quick or you don't.

I am reminded of a school mate who survived being a Recon Marine in Vietnam only to loose his leg playing soccer. Later his wife sent him off to Alaska by himself right after his initial diagnosis of Alzheimers. He had been dreaming of such a ride for a long time. My God he had fun and remembered it for a long time. What an adventure and of course his wife had real courage too...dare I say love.

I have slowed down but the danger remains including with my bicycles. But I like two wheels and it keeps me going.

[Baileyrock]

I don't think I'd be happier by not riding, but I'd be happier not being a vegetable or paralyzed.

I think riding ceases to be a personal choice when it affects others. What I mean by this is, one makes the personal decision to continue riding though it's dangerous, and his/her loved ones are left with the baggage if something happens. Seems selfish to me.

I understand your thoughts in general, BUT!!!

You better not every walk out your front door as it could be your last and motorcycles might have absolutely nothing to do with it. Do you drive to work every day? If so 30k plus die in auto wrecks every year as well as hundreds of thousands being mangled for life, should you stay home as not to effect others?

If I'm not mistaken more Head Trauma's occurs at home that all others combined. Yes motorcycles are potentially dangerous, but if you apply the same fears to all the ways you can be hurt or crippled in life you'd better stay in bed! :blush:

Not trying to take away for your current thoughts or fears, just saying any one day could be our last for whatever reason. So live & enjoy life each day, tell the one's you love that you love them each day and do whatever makes you happy! Try not to let fear of whatever potential hazards are out there prevent you from enjoying your life to the fullest whatever that may be!

If you no longer feel the pleasure of riding outweighs it's potential hazards, hang it up!

BR

[obryap]

I guess I think that since both of us ride on seperate bikes, in the event something bad happens, hopefully it's only one of us. That way the other will still be there to take care of things. I know this may not be right, but it's the way I see it. As far as the medical bills and other expenses, i'm relying on my insurance and savings to take care of this.

I also bring my children along with me when conditions allow, with the proper gear. I still remember my dad riding me when I was young (on the street & dirt), and I wouldn't trade those memories for a million bucks.

I have lost family and friends to disease and other freak accidents that were not motorcycle related, things that were out of their control, and I dont want to skip out on the fun side of life because of fear. But again, I'm not trying to persuade you in your decision

[Baileyrock]

Also flip that around.

What if your g/f, wife or kids loved or was passionate about some other sport or hobby, maybe hiking, horses, soccer, football, skiing, whatever. They could be killed or crippled in any one of them, would you ask them to give it up because it could negatively effect you some day?

Shitz can and doze happen, we can't live in a bubble of fear because something might happen! Just try to use common sense and moderation in whatever you do!

What's that saying:

I'd rather die living, than live dieing.

Just My dumb azz opinion! :biggrin:

[Ryanme17]

Also flip that around.

What if your g/f, wife or kids loved or was passionate about some other sport or hobby, maybe hiking, horses, soccer, football, skiing, whatever. They could be killed or crippled in any one of them, would you ask them to give it up because it could negatively effect you some day?

That is a really good point! If one of my loved ones was hurt in a sport they liked I wouldn't hold it against them.

I am not about to give up riding, but I do think like Jaimev34 does about this.

P.S. Threads like this are one of reasons I love VFRD.

[SEBSPEED]

In as much as motorcycling is a personal experience, it is also a personal choice. If you think you'll be happier in the long run without a motorcycle, then go ahead and get rid of it.

After your girlfriend becomes your wife and you grow old together, will you look back and say "boy I'm glad I gave up that motorcycle, because I might have become a vegetable"?

I don't think I'd be happier by not riding, but I'd be happier not being a vegetable or paralyzed.

I think riding ceases to be a personal choice when it affects others. What I mean by this is, one makes the personal decision to continue riding though it's dangerous, and his/her loved ones are left with the baggage if something happens. Seems selfish to me.

It's personal, as in, no matter what you decide - I'm going to continue to ride. Nothing you do or say is going to change my mind about how I live my life. And, having said that, I would expect that you act the same(meaning make your own decision as you see fit).

I have multiple insurance policies to cover my finances in case the worst happens. Life is great because we choose what we want it to be.

[BlakeyTom]

I have insurance, and a living will so that should something happen to me, motorcycle related or not my loved ones will not have to worry about taking care of me or my finances. From an emotional stand point everyone who matters knows I ride, and have never asked me to stop, if they did I would take their opinion very seriously. Until that day I will continue to do what I love doing, life is too short not too. If there is more risk associated with riding than you are comfortable with then hang it up for a while, maybe you'll adjust your level of acceptable risk to do what you want, maybe not...

[gradus]

If you're concerned at this point, you don't stand a chance if kids enter the picture.

I'm somewhat joking since I don't know your situation, but a baby on the way is the most common time guys start having 2nd thoughts about riding. Most at least slow down a little and increase the life insurance.

[Lobster]

For a while I've been debating if I should continue riding. I love it to no end, but I've had some spills and am very aware of my mortality. I used to be one to test my limits and go very fast on the twisties. I was careful, but careless at the same time. Now, I've slowed down and am very cautious. I'm mindful of my surroundings at all times and ride at my pace. However, no matter how careful I am, I can't deny the fact that the risk of injury/death is still there. We can't control what others do in their cars and we can't always avoid the obstacles on the road. My fear is not death or breaking an arm or leg. My fear is paralysis or brain damage and being a burden on my girlfriend or parents for the rest of my life and much of theirs. I feel like it's selfish for me to continue because it's not just my future I could potentially ruin, but that of others.

A buddy of mine, who's a nurse, just started riding. He's recently had two motorcycle accident victims in his wing. One guy's sleeping bag unraveled from the back of his bike and got caught in the chain and sent him flying. As a result, he has severe brain trauma and he's pretty much a vegetable now and will be cared for by his parents for the rest of his life. My buddy cared for this guy and still wants to ride. Does he think there's no chance that'll happen to him?

There are a ton of other examples - everyone knows someone who knows someone, or at least have heard of someone, who's had a bad wreck and been severely affected by it.

I'm not writing this to convince others to not ride, but to find out how we can continue riding knowing that we can severely negatively affect the lives of those who surround us, not just our own.

What do you guys think?

No one can give you this answer...only you can. Life has risks and life has rewards. We each get to choose how far to lean on either side of that equation.

I might suggest not selling the bike but perhaps try to go for an entire riding season without riding and then this time next year re-evaluate how you feel.

In the end, you must be comfortable with your decision...and we all want your head clear and focused when riding and not thinking about this thread.

Good luck and you'll be respected here either way.

[digitallyhip]

Jamie:

Gold star to you for thinking this way. So many of us lead pretty self-centered lives.

I got back on a bike two and a half years ago, when my kids were 11 and 14. It wasn't easy for me, but with the encouragement of my wife I made the decision to get back into a sport, and a lifestyle that I love. In conjunction with that change, I have worked and worked at making it easier to live with me, and all three of my immediate family report that this is working. I believe that the two decisions have worked together, and I am glad to report that I am riding and still married.

None of us can tell you what's best for you, but this is what's best for me for now.

David

PS: all the suggestions along the lines of "you could die in the bath or in your car" are to me only relevant if you stop taking baths and stop using cars. Unless you do that, you are increasing your chances of mishap, which cannot help to justify the decision to ride.

[jaimev34]

In as much as motorcycling is a personal experience, it is also a personal choice. If you think you'll be happier in the long run without a motorcycle, then go ahead and get rid of it.

After your girlfriend becomes your wife and you grow old together, will you look back and say "boy I'm glad I gave up that motorcycle, because I might have become a vegetable"?

I don't think I'd be happier by not riding, but I'd be happier not being a vegetable or paralyzed.

I think riding ceases to be a personal choice when it affects others. What I mean by this is, one makes the personal decision to continue riding though it's dangerous, and his/her loved ones are left with the baggage if something happens. Seems selfish to me.

It's personal, as in, no matter what you decide - I'm going to continue to ride. Nothing you do or say is going to change my mind about how I live my life. And, having said that, I would expect that you act the same(meaning make your own decision as you see fit).

I have multiple insurance policies to cover my finances in case the worst happens. Life is great because we choose what we want it to be.

Seb, I'm inferring from your post that I've offended you, which was not my intent. All I'm trying to say is that unless we don't have parents, significant others, or kids, or even friends, it's selfish for us (including me) to ride due to the high potential for injury/death. Can you deny that if you die, become paralyzed, or become mentally incapacitated it won't significantly affect those around you in a profoundly negative way? If you think about it you'll probably come to the conclusion that it will. I'm sorry for discussing something that most of us would rather not talk about, but I value the opinions of those on this board, and am always in search of the truth, even if it sucks. I'm not necessarily going to continue or stop riding based on these opinions, but it's good to read them. Furthermore, I'm not stating that anyone should stop riding. These are my thoughts about my riding and the impact on my family.

To those who say that it's the familie's/GF's/kid's decision whether or they want to take care of you if you become incapacitated mentally/physically, I say, would you not feel compelled to take care of your wife/husband/kid/dad/mom/sister/brother if something like this happened to them? Based on my experience with the fine members on this site, I'd say most of you would.

I'm just finding it hard to continue riding without regard for what it can do to the lives of those around me. When I start thinking about it, I can't put it aside and say "what happens, happens" or "I'd rather die living, than live dying" because I imagine leaving those around me with an endless worry. The people around me are of such good character, so loving and loyal, that they wouldn't be able to walk away, though that's what I'd like.

I didn't know what to expect when beginning this thread, but I'm glad that everyone's been cool and supportive. I was hoping to not get flamed, but expecting a little bit, and the VFRD community has one again demonstrated how great it is.

Thanks.

[serranot]

For a while I've been debating if I should continue riding. I love it to no end, but I've had some spills and am very aware of my mortality. I used to be one to test my limits and go very fast on the twisties. I was careful, but careless at the same time. Now, I've slowed down and am very cautious. I'm mindful of my surroundings at all times and ride at my pace. However, no matter how careful I am, I can't deny the fact that the risk of injury/death is still there. We can't control what others do in their cars and we can't always avoid the obstacles on the road. My fear is not death or breaking an arm or leg. My fear is paralysis or brain damage and being a burden on my girlfriend or parents for the rest of my life and much of theirs. I feel like it's selfish for me to continue because it's not just my future I could potentially ruin, but that of others.

A buddy of mine, who's a nurse, just started riding. He's recently had two motorcycle accident victims in his wing. One guy's sleeping bag unraveled from the back of his bike and got caught in the chain and sent him flying. As a result, he has severe brain trauma and he's pretty much a vegetable now and will be cared for by his parents for the rest of his life. My buddy cared for this guy and still wants to ride. Does he think there's no chance that'll happen to him?

There are a ton of other examples - everyone knows someone who knows someone, or at least have heard of someone, who's had a bad wreck and been severely affected by it.

I'm not writing this to convince others to not ride, but to find out how we can continue riding knowing that we can severely negatively affect the lives of those who surround us, not just our own.

What do you guys think?

I think a lot of folks here have missed the point.

First, it's not relevant to say "you could be killed every day by driving to work" or "you could be killed every day falling down while doing laundry."

Yes, you could. But we need to drive cars to live in the world (most of us). And they are a *lot* safer than motorcycles. And we have to do laundry. And doing laundry is a *lot* safer than motorcycles.

The fact is that most of us ride motorcycles as recreation. We do not absolutely require them to make a living or survive. Just like skydiving or general aviation. Rather, it's a choice we make in our lives.

So it isn't a valid comparison to say that you could die doing laundry or in a car. Not because it's not true but rather because (1) most of us need to do those things to make a living; and (2) the chance of being killed doing them is far lower than riding.

I've had these same thoughts recently, especially living in the DC area. If i lived in rural Iowa, I might think different. But riding here with all of the a** clowns around is another matter. I still have my bike because I wanted this make and model forever. But I have started to evaluate the benefits as opposed to the risks.

It's like wearing a helmet. I have a friend who didn't want to wear a helmet. And he kept trying to say that under certain conditions, helmets are dangerous. Really? Uh, no. Just admit you don't like helmets and accept the risk. Don't say that wearing a helmet is more dangerous than not wearing one.

The better justification is that you just want to ride, despite the risks. Don't try to justify it as being as safe as laundry or something you *must* do, because it usually isn't. Rather, justify it because you choose to accept the risk because of the pleasure it gives you.

This is not intended to offend or attack any particular person, but rather the arguments stated herein.

[FJ12Ryder]

I don't do things that I don't like to do or feel antsy about doing unless I absolutely have to. If I worried a lot about riding, I wouldn't ride. I feel very uncomfortable flying, so as a consequence I don't fly unless I have to. Flying for fun...not a chance.

However I don't stop doing things I like to do because I worry how someone else will be affected if I get hurt. Just not my way of living. I'm 61 years old, and have been riding for nearly 50 years and several hundred thousand miles. I've never had an accident on a street bike but I've seen friends go down and had some get killed while riding. The fact of the matter is "Sh*t Happens". The mortality rate of people is 100%. You're going to die at some point, you can lessen the risk but it's still gonna happen.

Yep, could be seriously incapacitated, paralyzed, have limbs removed, etc. Almost anything could happen, but that's life: full of danger and uncertainty.

If riding causes you stress, don't do it. It is that simple. Life is too short to stress yourself needlessly.

You don't get a second chance, so don't go through life thinking this is the practice round.

[VFR4Lee]

Riding is in my blood, no way I'll quit voluntarily.

It's been over 30 years riding for me, and I still love it.

I don't get to ride as much as I'd like, but I think about it every day. I'm obsessed! And loving it.

If there's a cure for MBD, I don't want to know. I just wanna ride.

More than once I've had the thought, If I knew riding would for certain kill me one day, would I still do it?

Come to think of it, the older I get the answer comes faster, Hell Yes! It's that much fun. :biggrin:

As for family and friends, family doesn't get a choice. You can't pick your family. My parents wouldn't let me get a motorcycle when I was young, too dangerous.

Bicycle was OK. Hah, you can kill yourself on those too. They've got used to it since, but Mom pressured Dad into not getting a motorcycle.

My wife knew I rode when we met. She mostly knows better than to suggest giving up riding. Might was well suggest Russia give up their nukes. :rolleyes:

I've only lost 1 friend or family to motorcycles, RIP Pancho. I've lost 2 to lupus, at least a couple to non MC accidents, old age rounds things to 100% mortality for humans, as noted.

Enjoy while you're here, try to spend more time doing things you love. Buy life insurance for your loved ones if you don't have it. And ride safe. :fing02:

[Metallican525]

It is a very hard decision to make as it would be with anything else you love. I personally know I'm miserable when I can't ride, and the longer I go without, the more stressed I get and the bigger a prick I am to just about everyone. Even after my wreck, I wanted to get back on. I couldn't move some of my body parts correctly, parts were swollen and rashed. I KNEW I couldn't get on a bike and ride because I was not physically capable, and I still missed it badly. Several friends came together and got me my VFR that I have today (bike shows up in my driveway exactly one week after my wreck, I still couldn't pick her up off the side stand when I sat on her). By no means do I think that it can't happen to me, or that it can't happen again to me. I realize everytime I swing a leg over I could die, or much much worse which is what your concern seems to be. Then again my brain could just suddenly decide to explode tomorrow and I'd be dead for no reason anyway, I'd rather take my chances riding than wait for something to happen to me and net the same result.

[jaimev34]

As for family and friends, family doesn't get a choice. You can't pick your family.

Buy life insurance for your loved ones if you don't have it. And ride safe. :fing02:

Question: What do you mean "family doesn't get a choice?" You're saying you don't care that you'd basically be ruining your wife's life if she's relegated to being your nurse for the rest of your life should something bad happen while riding? I bet you she cares.

[Bad Boy]

While the kids were at home I was busy with them. I got in a couple thousand miles a year riding, at a safe leisurely and sane pace. Then the kids go to college, I have new free time, I try out group sport bike riding, what a rush, I had to relearn how to ride. I am riding 17k miles a year at 1.5x the pace. In 6 years of this I have seen witnessed accidents and a fatality, some of which were in my wake, 2009 two severe accidents on a week long ride and a month later a pickup turns left as I am making a pass. I almost stop in time, go down, only the bike is harmed. I learned sh!t happens, not in my control, and I was not even being stupid (that time).

I stopped riding for several months. Not only concerned for my safety and my family, I did not want to encourage others to take bigger risks by my example. I did not know if I could still enjoy riding at a sane pace. I resumed riding doing what I could to reduce risk and still enjoy riding, fast in the corners. I slow down now when I am setting the pace for others, cautious passing and when conditions are uncertain. Then I started doing dual sport adventure touring also, all of the challenge at half the speed, plus I can take in all that scenery that I was blowing by. I am still sorting things out, doing only 5k miles a year now. The kids are out of college now and live near by. They are taking a bigger part of my life. I like that. I am still riding, but much less.

In conclusion I find that risk taking is a lesser part of my life as I find other things to live for.

[VFR4Lee]

What do you mean "family doesn't get a choice?"

Well, I guess they could disown me. But they accept who I am, and riding is part of it. :biggrin:

I just meant you can't pick your family, you're born into it.

Friends on the other hand, can be picked. Most of mine ride too, for some reason.

Birds of a feather or something. :comp13: :biggrin:

[spud786]

As for family and friends, family doesn't get a choice. You can't pick your family.

Buy life insurance for your loved ones if you don't have it. And ride safe. :fing02:

Question: What do you mean "family doesn't get a choice?" You're saying you don't care that you'd basically be ruining your wife's life if she's relegated to being your nurse for the rest of your life should something bad happen while riding? I bet you she cares.

When you get into the mind of a RIDER, that is the way they think

you want my opinion, get a bullet and write your name on it , incase you become a burden

every time you go ride , say today is your day to die

I guarantee, you'll be safe as Gold in Fort Knox

[jaimev34]

As for family and friends, family doesn't get a choice. You can't pick your family.

Buy life insurance for your loved ones if you don't have it. And ride safe. :fing02:

Question: What do you mean "family doesn't get a choice?" You're saying you don't care that you'd basically be ruining your wife's life if she's relegated to being your nurse for the rest of your life should something bad happen while riding? I bet you she cares.

When you get into the mind of a RIDER, this is the way they think

you want my opinion, get a bullet and write your name on it , incase you become a burden

every time you go ride , say today is your day to die

I guarantee, you'll be safe as Gold in Fort Knox

I consider myself a rider, but I still care about how my choices affect others. Trust me, I LOVE to ride and didn't think I'd ever quit, but sometimes a reevaluation is in order. Even with all this discussion, I'm still trying to justify riding. What we have is an illness, an addiction. No matter what could happen, we're willing to ride and worry about the consequences later, or not at all.

About the bullet: if I could ensure that my dad or GF (though I doubt she'd be willing to go through with it) wouldn't be prosecuted for pulling the plug, I'd be cool with riding. I'm a firm believer in the "pull the plug" ideology. I don't want to be around if I can't enjoy life, so being kept alive by a ventilator isn't for me. Hard to shoot yourself when you can't pull the trigger.

[Ryanme17]

To those who say that it's the familie's/GF's/kid's decision whether or they want to take care of you if you become incapacitated mentally/physically, I say, would you not feel compelled to take care of your wife/husband/kid/dad/mom/sister/brother if something like this happened to them? Based on my experience with the fine members on this site, I'd say most of you would.

If a family member required that I care for them I could choose not to do it. I certainly would take care of them, but I would know that helping out was my choice and I could not blame them for that or hold it against them. I don't know, maybe you're right, and I'm sure this is an easy thing to say in a hypothetical situation and harder in real life. I just think it's an important distinction to make because I never want anyone to do something nice for me solely because they are compelled to do so.

I do see your point, though.

[jaimev34]

To those who say that it's the familie's/GF's/kid's decision whether or they want to take care of you if you become incapacitated mentally/physically, I say, would you not feel compelled to take care of your wife/husband/kid/dad/mom/sister/brother if something like this happened to them? Based on my experience with the fine members on this site, I'd say most of you would.

If a family member required that I care for them I could choose not to do it. I certainly would take care of them, but I would know that helping out was my choice and I could not blame them for that or hold it against them. I don't know, maybe you're right, and I'm sure this is an easy thing to say in a hypothetical situation and harder in real life. I just think it's an important distinction to make because I never want anyone to do something nice for me solely because they are compelled to do so.

I do see your point, though.

By compelled, I mean that you probably wouldn't leave your significant other/child/parent alone to fend for themselves. You'd care for them out of the goodness of your heart, but wouldn't it suck to have to as a result of a preventable situation (such as riding for recreational purposes), versus enjoying that person's company when they're in good health?